Bow advice...newbie question

[NancyJohnson]

As you may have seen elsewhere, I have an EUB incoming (well, it's here, gotta wait until my birthday); I've been asked whether I'd like a bow...I'm a) completely in the dark about bows and b) completely in the dark about bows.  I only need an entry level one, it's not going to get much use and I can always go the whole hog later on, if necessary.

 

I just need to know something - I see bows sold as violin bows or cello bows (different sizes); are these all quintessentially the same thing or should I be looking for something specific?

 

For instance, this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/VINGOBOW-Natural-Black-Carbon-Violin/dp/B0813611VP/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=bass%2Bbow&qid=1635363157&sr=8-7&th=1

 

...it's under £50.00 (which is fine).

[Dan Dare]

Definitely not suitable. You need a double bass bow. They are shorter and have a much thicker/stronger stick, to resist bending and the frog is much deeper, so the hair is held further away from the stick. You need this because you have to exert much greater pressure on double bass strings than you do on a violin, viola or cello to set the strings vibrating. A violin, viola or cello bow will simply collapse against the strings. You will probably break the bow. Even if you don't, it will be useless. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Dan Dare

[NickA]

What he says. 

 

Get a cheap one to start with; though probably avoid the fibreglass ones. Go "Brazil wood" or carbon.

[zbd1960]

The different string instruments have bows with different characteristics. A double bass bow is shorter, heavier and wider at the frog than a cello bow. And a cello is shorter, heavier... than a violin bow etc. 

 

You don't need to pay a fortune for bows, but avoid fibreglass ones and the really cheap £30 ones. Assuming prices are 'similar' to cello bows, a £100 basic carbon fibre one would be OK. Your local string instrument shop / luthier might have some good options (I have a nice german back-up bow which was £70 from local luthier). 

[NancyJohnson]

Anyone got any suggestions?  Start me out at Amazon!

[Dan Dare]

I'd avoid Amazon, unless you have a specific make/model in mind that they sell. Seek advice from a specialist - as zbd1960 suggests - which won't be much more expensive, if at all. A decent, usable bow for £70 sounds a very good deal indeed to me. My best violin bow cost many times that. Also, let's try to support specialists and not give all our money to Bezos & Co. They've got plenty already.

[NickA]

https://www.bassbags.co.uk/product-category/double-bass-shop/double-bass-bows/

 

https://caswells-strings.co.uk/product/student-double-bass-bow/

 

[Grahambythesea]

Like NancyJohnson I am also,puzzling about the bow. Should it be French or German? I’ve ordered German but don’t know if that’s a good choice.

[zbd1960]

I'm not a bass player, but... 'German' bow hold is different and is similar to a Renaissance viol bow hold. The frog is much wider and you hold it at the end with fingers through the frog. I'm assuming that 'French' is what I would call 'standard' (for cello) bow hold held overhand with fingers coming down the side of the frog. I'd take advice from a teacher if unsure which to opt for.

[NickA]

11 hours ago, zbd1960 said:

I'm not a bass player, but..

... You are correct.  

 

I use French, (I started as a cellist, so it's what I'm used to) and have never met any German bow users; I conclude that it's not so common in the UK.  However many of the world's best players use German ... seems both work equally well.

 

There's a French Vs German thread here somewhere, but we only concluded that it's a matter of personal choice.

[Owen]

I play German. When I was in my late teens it was a HUGELY important topic. Now I could not care less.

 

The only important thing about bowing is the fact that the more expensive the bow, the easier it is to play. We kid ourselves this is the same with Bass Guitars. That is not true. Any decently set up Bass Guitar will be just fine and dandy. Sure, we all have slightly different preferences, but they are just planks with metal in them. Playing with a really good bow is bonkers. Everything just works. Sadly, when I say a really good bow I mean north of £5K and probably north of £10K. Yes, there are plenty of good bows around for less, but once you have played with a really good one, everthing else is a bit of a let down.

 

Just for reference, I do not have a really good bow.

[Owen]

And why would it be fabulous? It is just a stick of wood (or Carbon Graphite) with hair on it. But there it is, lovely bows make lovely tone and articulation SO much easier.

 

Then of course there is the rosin question................................

[NickA]

34 minutes ago, owen said:

I play German

Ok I was wrong.  I've met Owen a couple of times ... I didn't know he was of the German persuasion.  😁

 

My "really expensive", as I thought, bass bow was about £900 .. bottom of the range arcus S3 carbon one. But it's true they really do get better with price.  I had some cello bows on trial from caswells, chose the arcus T4 (£950). went back to the shop to return the others and thought "I'll just try the T5" ( £1350), world's apart.  Bought it. Didn't dare try the S6 (£1950).  Now itching for a bass bow upgrade.  Dangerous game!

[zbd1960]

9 hours ago, NickA said:

Ok I was wrong.  I've met Owen a couple of times ... I didn't know he was of the German persuasion.  😁

 

My "really expensive", as I thought, bass bow was about £900 .. bottom of the range arcus S3 carbon one. But it's true they really do get better with price.  I had some cello bows on trial from caswells, chose the arcus T4 (£950). went back to the shop to return the others and thought "I'll just try the T5" ( £1350), world's apart.  Bought it. Didn't dare try the S6 (£1950).  Now itching for a bass bow upgrade.  Dangerous game!

I have very deliberately stayed away from trying more expensive cello bows... My main bow is a conventional Dörfler pernambuco bow, which cost £450 ten years ago when I started playing...   

[zbd1960]

12 hours ago, NickA said:

... You are correct.  

 

I use French, (I started as a cellist, so it's what I'm used to) and have never met any German bow users; I conclude that it's not so common in the UK.  However many of the world's best players use German ... seems both work equally well.

 

There's a French Vs German thread here somewhere, but we only concluded that it's a matter of personal choice.

The German bow hold seems to have come from the viola da gamba. Given that the double bass is a descendent of the violone - the double bass viol - (mostly, some are bass violins) this makes sense. What is slightly odd, is that certainly after about 1600, the viol bow hold was not on the end, which it had been in Renaissance era but along the stick. The two commonest bow holds for viol being those advocated by Christopher Simpson in England or by Forqueray in France. Both of these are underhand grips the main difference being that Forqueray advocates rotating the wrist to add more tension to the hair... both grips do have the middle finger on the hair.

 

As ever, the problem with this is there is little documented about what went on then. We rely on the fact that Simpson and Forqueray for wrote tutor books so we have what they wrote, what we don't know is how representative of practice these writings are. 

[JJB]

Nancy, I’m a bowing (and plucking) double bassist (and electric bassist before that, to give you some context) who has been in the same situation.

 

1- DB vs violin or cello bow?

Physics mean that the speed with which you move your bow have an impact on loudness AND pitch. So a violin requires faster and longer movements with the bow because of its higher tuning, while a DB requires slower movements, hence the length difference (as well as the overall build strength - as raised before on this thread, you let your DB bow rest more on the strings so it needs to bear your arm’s weight).

 

2- “German” or “French” bow?

It’s a matter of preference AND teacher availability. Both bows have completely different holding techniques and moderately different movement / bowing techniques. A (competent!) teacher for one type of bow will be understandably reluctant to teach the other style. UK teachers and orchestras tend to prefer the French bow. However, both bows essentially sound the same and can do the same things.

if you don’t know and don’t feel strongly drawn to either, go for the type that matches the teachers you can get. Unless you have existing wrist and arm problems in which case one type of bow might suit you better over the other type.

 

3- price?

Around £100-200 for a starter one. I appreciate it’s not as cheap as a normal person would imagine but a bow that’s too cheap will definitely have balance issues and give you bad habits.

Last point: please please please get a teacher.  Bad DB techniques can ruin your hands and wrists and severely limit what you can do with the instrument.

 

Best wishes.