lownote Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 This is a sax question but I lack a sax hive mind to consult and I think the issue may be non instrument specific. I am a beginnery tenor player and am trying to get practice playing at a local blues jam. Thing is I’m crap, both because I’m crap but also because I can’t hear myself at all most of the time, except the very loudest shrieks. This is despite having a monitor pointing up at me. The sound guy insists I should be getting myself via a tilt down mic but I’m not. And every time I point this out he gets crosser. Does anyone with experience of sax in their band have any advice or suggestions as to solutions I may be missing? And no I’m not deaf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunderwonder Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 Earplugs help me hear myself on bass. Maybe that works with a sax in your gob? If there's a mic stand in front of you it might be possible to do like the big band players with a perspex reflector to bounce bell sound back to you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 I've never been in a band with a saxomaphonist (sorry), but yonks ago some mates had a sax player and there wasn't any need to mic him up as he was painfully loud, but complained of the same thing. Thinking outside the box here...is there any kind of battery headphone amp and earbuds you could investigate? Perhaps use it with a cheap, clip on drum mic? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boodang Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 I used to play alto in a band. The only way you'll be able to control your sound is to have your own 'clip on mic' on the bell. I used feed mine to a pack on my belt, then a lead to a DI box and would let the sound guy connect to the DI. General mics don't really work that well on sax and horns. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trueno Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 I played tenor sax in a large functions band for years. When we used our own PA I barely heard a single note I played. When we played larger gigs the soundguy brought his own PA in (about 20 KWatts) with enormous monitors… and I heard myself. Wearing earplugs helped… a bit like finger-in-ear folkies… but the only real answer is a monitoring system that’s up to the job. Never tried IEMs but I imagine they would work very well. If I played sax in a band again I’d get my own monster powered speaker and rig it it up myself… but… if you’re in a section I’ve found it’s much better to get a monitor mix of the entire section… then you can hear all the beautious harmonies and make sure your timing and phrasing is spot on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boodang Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 IEMs is a good way to go but take a bit of getting used to. Also a bit of an investment, but worth it in the long run. Also a bit of a faff for just a jam night but I would at least get a clip on mic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Horse Murphy Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 I'd go for a clip on mic too. Saxes are notorious difficult to mic up and if you move a bit it can completely change what's picked up. Cloud Vocal does a really decent mic with a mixer included too. I use one live and it really has made a big difference. Failing that, I'd ask everyone to turn down a bit in the overall mix. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 I play in a band with a sax player. He has clip on mikes for his saxes and has a channel in the PA. he also has his own monitor speaker system which he always uses, which comprises a speaker cabinet mounted on top of a stand (I think it’s a mike stand with the clip removed) and the speaker mounted on top at head height, which he has next to him. He also has effects units but I’m not sure how the whole lot is wired up. The rest of the band can usually hear him fine even where we have limited monitoring in small venues. Best of luck with getting it sorted - being unable to hear yourself properly is one of the most frustrating and unsatisfactory things for a musician - as a bass player I find low speaker cabinets at floor level (raising them helps a lot), and extremely loud drummers to be the usual culprits. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jus Lukin Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 (edited) - Edited March 15, 2022 by Jus Lukin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lownote Posted October 29, 2021 Author Share Posted October 29, 2021 6 minutes ago, Jus Lukin said: If you think you're crap on the sax, take heart that you can't be anything like as bad as the guy who turned up to a blues session this week- I'm sure he was a quarter tone out of tune and played with neither rhythm nor recognisable melody. A good chunk of the regulars are working players- pro and semi pro, if you will, but that guy sucked all the life out of the room for a time. It was genuinely reminiscent of My Lovely Horse from Father Ted! What sort of volume do the band play at, and have you checked that the mic is actually live at any decent level with a sneaky scratch or tap test? Erm, you weren't in Norwich on Wednesday by any chance? 😚 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boodang Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 19 minutes ago, drTStingray said: I play in a band with a sax player. He has clip on mikes for his saxes and has a channel in the PA. he also has his own monitor speaker system which he always uses, which comprises a speaker cabinet mounted on top of a stand (I think it’s a mike stand with the clip removed) and the speaker mounted on top at head height, which he has next to him. He also has effects units but I’m not sure how the whole lot is wired up. The rest of the band can usually hear him fine even where we have limited monitoring in small venues. Best of luck with getting it sorted - being unable to hear yourself properly is one of the most frustrating and unsatisfactory things for a musician - as a bass player I find low speaker cabinets at floor level (raising them helps a lot), and extremely loud drummers to be the usual culprits. When I played sax I used a Gallien Krueger MB-150S combo (the metal cased combo) on a sturdy mic stand at head height as a monitor. They sell a 'U' shaped bracket to mount it. That setup also works quite well as a stage monitor for bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jus Lukin Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 (edited) - Edited March 15, 2022 by Jus Lukin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellzero Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 This is called free jazz by people who don't know what free jazz is. 🤦♂️ 😉 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lownote Posted October 29, 2021 Author Share Posted October 29, 2021 Just now, Jus Lukin said: You'll be pleased to hear not- although I did check your location before posting. 😉 Honestly, if he hadn't been so serious I'd have thought he was winding us all up! Perhaps he was- deadpan serious, but it would have been hard to have played wronger. It was mind bogglingly jarring at the time, but now I wish someone had caught it on video. I cannot express how off it was. Haha. Cheers, that's a relief, but only partial because actually you could have been describing me. But that's what happens when you are a/terrifeid and b/ can't hear yourself - I don't mean muffled, but at all. I'm determined to crack it but it's not fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellzero Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 Maybe using something like the PJB Ear-Box at ears height and a clip-on mike would help a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trueno Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 Plus one on the clip-on mic. Ensures consistency of tone and volume… and you have the freedom to leap about (in case… as a bass player… you’re bored with being the quiet guy at the back). Mine is a Sennheiser summat-or-other. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellzero Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 This : https://pjbgear.com/product/ear-box/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 (edited) If, by your own admission, you are crap, the sound guy may be keeping you low in the mix, so as not to have it sound too bad out front. He will likely not want to tell you this for fear of hurting your feelings. I've been in a similar position when mixing. It's a difficult situation. Yes, the idea of a jam is that everyone (within reason) gets a chance to pitch in, but you still want to keep things sounding as decent as possible. Edited October 29, 2021 by Dan Dare 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 2 hours ago, Downunderwonder said: Earplugs help me hear myself on bass. Maybe that works with a sax in your gob? Good call, I`ve found that I can hear every instrument much better when wearing my ACS plugs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lownote Posted October 29, 2021 Author Share Posted October 29, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Dan Dare said: If, by your own admission, you are crap, the sound guy may be keeping you low in the mix, so as not to have it sound too bad out front. He will likely not want to tell you this for fear of hurting your feelings. I've been in a similar position when mixing. It's a difficult situation. Yes, the idea of a jam is that everyone (within reason) gets a chance to pitch in, but you still want to keep things sounding as decent as possible. Could be, only he did say I sounded loud out front (although as you suggest it was said accusingly rather than admiringly). Edited October 29, 2021 by lownote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boodang Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Dan Dare said: If, by your own admission, you are crap, the sound guy may be keeping you low in the mix, so as not to have it sound too bad out front. He will likely not want to tell you this for fear of hurting your feelings I've been in a similar position when mixing. It's a difficult situation. Yes, the idea of a jam is that everyone (within reason) gets a chance to pitch in, but you still want to keep things sounding as decent as possible. ... so remember, get good by playing with other musicians but don't play with other musicians until you're good! Edited October 29, 2021 by Boodang 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 9 minutes ago, Boodang said: ... so remember, get good by practicing and learning how to play your instrument and then play with other musicians once you've mastered the basics! Perhaps this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lownote Posted October 29, 2021 Author Share Posted October 29, 2021 Well taken 10 weeks of face 2 face lessons, hundreds of hours of online lessons and been practicing several hours a day for three years. Suppose I could ratchet it up a bit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trueno Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 2 hours ago, Dan Dare said: If, by your own admission, you are crap, the sound guy may be keeping you low in the mix, so as not to have it sound too bad out front. He will likely not want to tell you this for fear of hurting your feelings. I've been in a similar position when mixing. It's a difficult situation. Yes, the idea of a jam is that everyone (within reason) gets a chance to pitch in, but you still want to keep things sounding as decent as possible. The trumpet player I played with had a serious drink problem. When he was on the wagon it was great… when he was drinking it was awful. The sound guy had a quiet word with me and told me that he would take him completely out of the FOH mix… so it was just me and the occasional cornet/keyboards player 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trueno Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 1 hour ago, lownote said: Well taken 10 weeks of face 2 face lessons, hundreds of hours of online lessons and been practicing several hours a day for three years. Suppose I could ratchet it up a bit... Coltrane used to practise 12 hours a day. (don’t take that comment too seriously… you sound ok to me) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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