Advice Needed on Oil Finishes

[Stub Mandrel]

I want to finish a spalted burl maple body, with a Uruguayan mahogany back. Yes it's one of those, but there seem to be more luthiers here than on GC.

 

I have looked at lots of online stuff and asked in a specialist store, but all I got was partial or contradictory.

 

 

Having done a couple of nitro-finished bodies I want to try a satin oiled finish.

 

I bought some lovely red spirit stain, but the salesperson seemed to think I shouldn't use it with oil? This doesn't seem right but advice sought.

 

I want to use an airbrush to spray the red stain around the outside, sunburst style where the wood is less figured, and leave the centre plain. Then finish with an oil that will enhance the figure and give an amber colour. Sort of like this:

 

 

Would Tung Oil be a good choice on its own, or should I use a yellow/amber stain first?

 

The burl has only very small holes, I was thinking of using either a water-based neutral filler or a gold-glitter loaded glue... years ago my daughter managed to get some on one of those oil-finished coffee tables and it seemed quite durable... will this work or will it stop the oil from taking?

 

As for the back, it's typical mahogany with fairly modest grain that seems bit open. What sort of prep should I give before using the stain/oil on it. Sanding sealer? Filler?

 

 

Finally, how do I apply the TUng oil. Does it just soak in, or does it build up like Danish oil? How do I get a satin finish rather than a glossy one?

 

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Stub Mandrel

[Stub Mandrel]

No suggestions? 🥺

[ezbass]

9 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

No suggestions? 🥺

Maybe tag some of resident builders whose work you admire in this respect. 

[Stub Mandrel]

 Perhaps if a mod could move to build threads?

 

@Jabba_the_gut

@Chopthebass

@Rexel Matador

 

[rubis]

I've just been watching this fella doing paisley topped guitars, because I fancy having a go at a P5 with the same kind of finish. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dkiPduks3Q

He did the back with this stuff - Odie's Oil – Official UK Distributor (odiesoil.co.uk), which,as you see is available inthe UK, albeit expensive, but I suppose when you add up the cost of everything needed for other finishes, it's not that bad

[bertbass]

have a look for Crimson Guitars and their stunning stains on youtube.  Ben goes to great lengths to show how he does it.  Also Crimson guitars.com 

[songofthewind]

I get good results with Liberon Finishing Oil. Apply very thinly and allow to dry well between or it can remain sticky feeling for a long time. Quite reasonably priced.

[mybass]

Edited……. Apologies but I was trying to Tru Oil!

I use Tru Oil (Birchwood and Casey). Perhaps you were warned off from using oil after staining if the stain was water based? Also, using 'Micro Mesh' as a final finisher before oiling and between coats really can bring up an oil finish.

Edited November 8, 2021 by mybass

[PaulThePlug]

Beauty... I would go plain old Danish... to keep as much of the natural. I use the No Nonsense from Screw Fix... warm colours a little.

Is that a Luthiers Warehouse Body? Great VFM! After the custom P I got 'em to do me a custom fancy J...

Edited November 7, 2021 by PaulThePlug

[Chopthebass]

6 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 Perhaps if a mod could move to build threads?

 

@Jabba_the_gut

@Chopthebass

@Rexel Matador

 

Hey, I haven’t used tung oil, but I have used Tru-oil. It’s described as a gunstock oil, but it’s used by many guitar builders. It can be applied and buffed to a lacquer like finish, or easily made to look satin. I apply thinned 50/50 with thinners, and apply many thin coats. You have to be patient and allow 24 hours between coats, and rub with 0000 wire wool too before each coat. If you need a satin look, you just need to use 0000 after your final coat has cured. I usually let that last coat cure for 3 or 4 days before buffing with the wool. 

Staining burl wood doesn’t always achieve what’s in your head. I find it absorbs stain at different rates and can be blotchy.  I have done it using Kedo powder stains (water based), but I now tend to seal the wood, apply a few clear coats, and then apply tinted lacquer to get where I need to be. Then clear coats to finish off. 

[Andyjr1515]

Hi

Sorry- only just spotted this @Stub Mandrel - crazy busy weekend!

 

I'll try and answer some of the points not covered yet later today

 

[Andyjr1515]

Hi again @Stub Mandrel

 

Normal stuff - this is just the thought process and method I would personally go through and methods and pitfalls that I've come across along the way.

 

So OK - there are a number of aspects here that tend to interact with each other.  Quite what the best combination of methods and materials is going to be does really depend on the actual piece of timber and what you are wanting to do with it.

 

First a couple of questions: 

1.  If you wipe the burl part with a damp cloth (assuming it is freshly sanded and has had no coating of any kind) then the maple (lovely piece, by the way) will darken.  The question is whether this is dark enough without a stain?

 

2.  How completely do you want to fill the holes?

 

 

The reason for question is the first interdependence:

 

Filling vs staining

Basically, many of the common methods of filling will reject both water based and spirit based stains.  So, depending, you can end up with the areas where the stain soaks into the surrounding wood at one colour, and the fills remaining the colour of the filler.  For the less 'holey' outside area where you are thinking of sunbursting, I have a couple of suggestions but, for the more holey area in the middle, it is a bigger challenge if you really do want to stain that too. 

 

Rather than going into the detail of all the permutations and combinations of methods, I'll come back to this when I know the answer to the two questions.  But in the meantime, and ignoring the complication with stains, my preferred methods of achieving a satin finish:

 

Method 1 Tru-oil Slurry and Buff - used to both fill and produce a wonderfully organic silky smooth finish

 

I actually personally use this method for all of my non-stained preparation, whether I intend to stay satin or even gloss coat (but I only use polyurethane varnish which I know does not react with the Tru-oil.

 

- Basically, wearing disposable gloves, I get a bottle of Tru-oil (a small bottle is plenty) and I wet and dry sand, with the grain, using the Tru-oil as the 'wet'.  It quickly turns into a slurry of oil and sandings which can be used to fill both the grain, splits and even large holes.  Personally, I start with quite a coarse paper (I use 120grit emery cloth to start) and then move to finer grits through the process.

 

- First go I create the sludge, then use an old credit card to scrape it into the holes.

 

- I let it dry overnight, then repeat.  I repeat this until the holes are filled.

 

- Then I move to finer grits - I usually go to 300 grit sandpaper, then to 400 grit wet-n-dry (a multi pack from Halfords is ideal), sanding with the grain but this time wiping off the sludge across the grain and, again, let it dry

 

- Then to 800 to 1000 and sometimes to 2000, but with these, after wet sanding with the oil ( by now you won't need a lot of oil) and wipe immediately dry with a non-lint cloth (again, Halfords do some great non-lint polishing cloths)

 

- The final one or two coats, after wet sanding with the oil, now not only wipe off the oil but then vigorously buff.  You should be left with something that is satin, still feels like wood but is silky, silky smooth.  It is also the way I do all my necks because I love the organic and silky smooth feel (and why I would never, ever, buy a Gibson Les Paul again because I can't stand sticky necks!)

 

This is some bubinga on my fretless bass done the above way - 6 years later, it still looks like this:

 

This camphor burl - a very figured wood - was also done this way and then varnished on top:

 

Method 2 - Osmo Polyx Satin (tinted or clear)

 

Osmo Polyx is a trade product that has relatively recently come onto the consumer market in smaller tins.  A teeny tin would happily do a couple of guitars.  Once you have filled everything and got the wood to to final dry-sanded finish, you apply it with a cloth, thin coat, leave to dry overnight.  You then give it a second coat, leave it to fully harden (generally a week) and then it is usually done!  It is a VERY easy product to use and produces a great finish.

 

They do a range also of tinted versions - the stain will be much lighter than a spirit stain straight onto wood - including a decent amber.

 

This is fleabag's rebody in Polyx Satin:

  

 

Both Tru-oil and Osmo Polyx are pretty unreactive and so you can prepare an unstained body as above and then give is a couple of wipes with the Polyx - or you can actually slurry the Polyx itself.  However, I don't know how well slurried Polyx fills cracks and holes.  Might be fine, and worth experimenting although, personally, if I want a slightly tougher finish I would still use the Tru-oil slurry method first, simply because I know it works.

 

So the complication is just if you need to fill AND stain a sunburst (otherwise, Tru-oil slurry and buff + tinted Polyx or just tinted Polyx would both work)

 

Hope this helps

 

 

 

[Chopthebass]

Great info there Andy. There is also a trend to leave voids in the finished surface. Mayones and others do a ‘raw’ finish. I haven’t tried the slurry method as I don’t often use tru oil but sounds like a great solution.

[Stub Mandrel]

First thanks tpo everyone fopr lots oif useful comment and suggetsions!

 

 

3 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

1.  If you wipe the burl part with a damp cloth (assuming it is freshly sanded and has had no coating of any kind) then the maple (lovely piece, by the way) will darken.  The question is whether this is dark enough without a stain?

 

2.  How completely do you want to fill the holes?

 

1. The picture (from Luthiers warehouse) shows it wiped with alcohol, apparently. I wouldn't want less contrast, ideally a bit more.

 

2 The holes are tiny ~1mm and in dark areas. A dark filler might be inconspicuous.

 

 

[Stub Mandrel]

3 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

(lovely piece, by the way)

 

 From Luthier's warehouse. It had about five times as many watchers as any other bodies they had up, so I stopped umming and ahing just went for it! Now I have to do it justice.

 

That bubinga looks pretty much what I'm hoping for finish wise

 

Sounds like it might be acceptable to leave the holes. They are very small. That would make life easier.

 

So I could (having also seen some online stuff):

 

Use router to round over corners, sand corners around pickup holes, neck pocket.

 

Use red water based stain around the outside.

 

Sand back a bit.

 

Use yellow stain over whole body.

 

Use the slurry method with Tru-Oil to finish. So best to sand manually and follow the grain.

 

Question: is water based stain going to be OK?

[Stub Mandrel]

Actually... I have a spirit-based stain.

 

Does this make a difference?

[Andyjr1515]

17 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Actually... I have a spirit-based stain.

 

Does this make a difference?

No difference.  The only issue with 'proper' stains is if you are intending to mix them with the finish.  And then yes it makes a difference (water based stains will only mix with water based finishes).  However, once they are dry, there is no difference - the spirit or water is just a way of getting the stain into solution and capable of soaking into the wood.  The colours themselves start off generally as powder and are generally non-reactive to subsequent finishes.  

[Andyjr1515]

38 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

 From Luthier's warehouse. It had about five times as many watchers as any other bodies they had up, so I stopped umming and ahing just went for it! Now I have to do it justice.

 

That bubinga looks pretty much what I'm hoping for finish wise

 

Sounds like it might be acceptable to leave the holes. They are very small. That would make life easier.

 

So I could (having also seen some online stuff):

 

Use router to round over corners, sand corners around pickup holes, neck pocket.

 

Use red water based stain around the outside.

 

Sand back a bit.

 

Use yellow stain over whole body.

 

Use the slurry method with Tru-Oil to finish. So best to sand manually and follow the grain.

 

Question: is water based stain going to be OK?

 

Fine up to this bit.

 

And here lies the challenge.  If you think about it - you are effectively sanding it down to create the slurry.  And stains really don't soak much beyond 0.2mm except on end grain.  So the slurry method will simply sand off the stain again.

 

BUT - there is a way I've found to be able to do it.  I'm a bit tight on time right at this moment but a bit later this eve I'll go through how you can get pretty close to what you are trying to do.  And it helps if the grain fill is small rather than large (which is why I asked the question)

 

I'll post the rest a bit later

 

 

 

 

[Stub Mandrel]

If off to  rehearsal... on tenterhooks! 🙂

 

[Andyjr1515]

 

2 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

 

Fine up to this bit.

 

And here lies the challenge.  If you think about it - you are effectively sanding it down to create the slurry.  And stains really don't soak much beyond 0.2mm except on end grain.  So the slurry method will simply sand off the stain again.

 

BUT - there is a way I've found to be able to do it.  I'm a bit tight on time right at this moment but a bit later this eve I'll go through how you can get pretty close to what you are trying to do.  And it helps if the grain fill is small rather than large (which is why I asked the question)

 

I'll post the rest a bit later

 

 

 

 

 

OK

 

The conventional wisdom is that you can't slurry and buff tru-oil on a stained body because the slurry bit will simply sand off the stain - either totally or in patches.

 

And, generally, this is a reasonable assumption.  But it can be done.  There's a bit of finesse involved, there's a bit of trial and error, and there're some 'do's and don'ts' - but it can be done.  The finish is not quite the same (so do review it against the Osmo Polyx, because that is much more straightforward) but pretty close.  This was my first attempt.  Stained with red calligraphy ink on mahogany:

 

And to pre-empt the nay-sayers who will say that the stain will come off on your hands - the neck was also done...and it didn't despite a LOT of playing:

 

And this was done for a pro player - neck and all (it used to be a white-wash finish) - who also confirms that the stain has never lifted after lots of playing.  This one used Chestnut Spirit Stains but the same method outlined below:

 

 

 

So - if it was trying to do what you describe I would:

 

- Get it down to final with-the-grain sanding (probably around 300 grit)

- Do the staining

- Then use the modified approach:

 

* We are going to still slurry and buff...but we are going to slurry and buff the tru-oil and NOT the stained wood

* So first I would do a number of coats of tru oil, wiped or brushed on.  The first coats will be sucked into the stained wood.  Let each fully dry. 

* After 2-4 coats you will find that the oil is no longer being sucked in - each coat is starting to build a shine.

* From this point, do at least 2 more full coats.

* Then, when fully dry, take some 1000 grit wet and dry and do a very, very light circular sanding using the tru-oil as the wet.  Do a couple of inches at a time and wipe it off as you go.  There may be a small amount of stain on the cloth - that's not a problem, but if you see the stain lightening of the wood at all, you are sanding through the hardened tru-oil layers into the stained wood.

*  Likewise be very careful with any sharp edges.  Better to slurry sand up to an edge and not the edge itself.  Wipe it, let it fully dry.

*If you have got breakthrough in the stain, sand the dried with the 1000 grit in that area until you break through the stain to the wood.  Restain that patch, let it dry, add a few more coats to the patch and then carry on with the above process.

* After the first slurry and wipe has fully dried, now do a slurry and buff.  Slurry very, very lightly - you don't want to break through now - but buff up** fairly vigorously.  Let it fully dry.

* Once fully dry, finally buff up** again.  Should be done   

 

**Where I say 'buff up' , we are talking hand buffing with a cloth.  Don't under any circumstances use any form of powered buffer - it will go straight through the finish and take all the stain off!!

 

So - there is a learned technique here - and the Osmo over the stained wood will be very close to the same final result.  The choice is yours

 

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Andyjr1515

[Stub Mandrel]

Thanks Andy, that's almost a short book on the subject!

 

I still have to find my router (It's a long story) but it will be one step at a time anyway.

 

Wish me luck!

[Andyjr1515]

2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Wish me luck!

 

I wish you patience and perseverance instead.  With those two, you won't need the luck bit

 

[Jabba_the_gut]

I haven’t used oil that many times. I tried Tru oil once and I didn’t particularly like it. I should really try it again based on other folks results!!

 

I have used Osmo oils before a few times and as Andy says, very easy to use and nice finish. Only thing I found was one type of Osmo I tried out was not waterproof so a sweaty arm was enough to affect the finish! The other type was great.

 

Be interested to see how you get on!

Cheers

[Silky999]

I had a good result with Liberon finishing oil on an un-stained alder bodied Warwick using the hand sanded slurry method. It really is a little and often approach allowing the coats to dry and working your way up the grit of wet and dry paper

 

 

From this;

 

 

To this;

 

I found very therapeutic for my mental health to spend an hour each day oiling and sanding. 

[Stub Mandrel]

I found my router, and it already had a rounding over bit fitted. Possibly I could have gone with a larger radius cutter, but this one pretty much matches the thickness of the top (about 1/4").

 

I've sanded with 180 grit, managed to get out any imperfections left by the router and break all the sharp edges. Currently about 3/4 of the way through going over with 600 grit which is leaving it feeling much smoother.

 

Debating whether or not to try a belly carve.

 

I also picked up a set of Chestnut Stains 'samples' so I can do a red and orange 'burst border', then sand back and wash it all with yellow.

 

Debating doing a different colour (black or purple) just around the sides, and whether to do the mahogany back as solid red or as a three-colour burst.