Advice on technique

[Biscuit_Bass]

Hi all,

 

Had my first lesson yesterday and really struggled switching between my middle finger and ring finger when trying a chromatic scale. It just wouldn't stretch far enough. Would I be better off trying the 1-2-4 method, or is it a good thing to persevere and learn to use all four fingers?

Cheers

[itu]

Do not grab the neck. Put your thumb behind it and then your fingers can fly all over the fretboard. Take a look at Tom Kennedy:

 

[Reggaebass]

Keep at it, it will come in time 👍

[Hellzero]

Always use the one finger per case technique, you'll thank yourself later.

[chris_b]

6 hours ago, Biscuit_Bass said:

Had my first lesson yesterday and really struggled switching between my middle finger and ring finger when trying a chromatic scale. It just wouldn't stretch far enough. Would I be better off trying the 1-2-4 method, or is it a good thing to persevere and learn to use all four fingers?

 

Stretching to reach notes is physically bad for you, poor technique and unnecessary.

 

If 1-2-4 is more comfortable and you can achieve an even flow of notes, then do that. There is no benefit in using force during any technique. IMO, if it's uncomfortable then you're doing it wrong.

 

If you are going to use one finger per fret on a chromatic scale make sure you DON'T anchor your thumb and then stretch for the notes. Always move your thumb/hand so your fingers can reach the notes without stretching.

 

You can play a chromatic scale with just one finger. Try that and see how many times your thumb moves. That's how mobile your hand/thumb should be.

[TKenrick]

On 06/11/2021 at 13:33, Hellzero said:

Always use the one finger per case technique, you'll thank yourself later.

 

I would offer a contrary opinion; use 1-2-4 in the lower positions of the bass for the majority of the time and 'dip in' to one finger per fret when the music requires it. I find that 1-2-4 allows me to keep my fretting hand much more relaxed than 1fpf.

 

As others have already said, it's vital that your fretting hand thumb is an active participant in the music - it has to pivot and move to help you get around the bass rather than being static (or worse, clamped over the top of the neck).

[Hellzero]

The 1-2-4 technique is a double bass technique as the spacings are much wider (41 inches scale vs 34 inches scale).

 

That said I use the one finger per position technique even on double bass, which is academically wrong...

 

If you have very small hands, you can use the 1-2-4 technique on electric bass, otherwise take your time, stretch your fingers slowly with warmed up hands (tendons don't like being stretched when cold) and you'll be able to use one finger per fret (or position or case) even in the lower register.

 

You'll also have to give more strength to your pinky as it's your weakest finger.

 

The thumb is a neck guide and you should be able to play without even using it.

 

We all started with this "difficulties" to face and ignoring them might be worst than you might think when you'll make progress, or if you decide to take lessons and you'd have to start all over your technique because it's completely wrong and a teacher will tell it to you within the first minute.

[TKenrick]

10 hours ago, Hellzero said:

The 1-2-4 technique is a double bass technique as the spacings are much wider (41 inches scale vs 34 inches scale).

 

Triggered.

 

One finger per fret is a guitar technique as the spacing is much smaller (25.5 inches vs 34 inches).

 

The argument for 1-2-4 in lower registers is ergonomic. I have large hands and long fingers, but if I put my fretting hand in a relaxed state then it spans 3 frets rather than 4 until I reach roughly the 7th fret; to that end, I'm going to use the left hand technique that minimises unnecessary tension in my fretting hand wherever possible. I'd rather make playing as effortless as possible rather than trying to stretch my tendons out...

 

I spent the first 6 or so years wasting my time playing 1234 permutation exercises in the lowest register of the bass and all it did was give me physical problems that went away when I discovered Simandl and switched to 1-2-4. I've had students with similar shoulder/wrist issues that have been cleared up by following the same path.

 

My gripe is not against using 1fpf; what I was attempting to convey is that I think it's limiting to approach the bass with only one fretting hand concept. I think that most of the music that we encounter requires some 1-2-4, some 1fpf and some extension fingering (where fingers are spread with a gap of two or more frets).

[Burns-bass]

21 hours ago, Hellzero said:

The 1-2-4 technique is a double bass technique as the spacings are much wider (41 inches scale vs 34 inches scale).

 

That said I use the one finger per position technique even on double bass, which is academically wrong...

 

If you have very small hands, you can use the 1-2-4 technique on electric bass, otherwise take your time, stretch your fingers slowly with warmed up hands (tendons don't like being stretched when cold) and you'll be able to use one finger per fret (or position or case) even in the lower register.

 

You'll also have to give more strength to your pinky as it's your weakest finger.

 

The thumb is a neck guide and you should be able to play without even using it.

 

We all started with this "difficulties" to face and ignoring them might be worst than you might think when you'll make progress, or if you decide to take lessons and you'd have to start all over your technique because it's completely wrong and a teacher will tell it to you within the first minute.

it seems strange you’d stick so rigidly to orthodoxy on electric bass then use one finger per note on DB which isn’t just poor technique but potentially damaging too.

 

Personally, I’ve always done one finger per string when playing scales etc, bjt tend to focus on what’s better for the situation when playing live.

[Hellzero]

That's why I said to learn the most academic way as for me it's now too late to go back to the correct double bass technique as I'd have to relearn all automatisms linked to the muscle memory (I'm now learning the piano at 56 years old since September with a private graduated teacher, so the classic way and I love it).

 

Furthermore I have never had any issues with the way I play the double bass as I've always been careful with my tendons when it comes to playing, I also can really stretch my fingers easily and I can play what I need to play effortlessly, BUT I wouldn't advise anybody to do so as it can get you into big troubles and issues, hence my recommendation to learn the orthodox way.

[bassman7755]

On 06/11/2021 at 14:01, chris_b said:

 

Stretching to reach notes is physically bad for you, poor technique and unnecessary.

 

If 1-2-4 is more comfortable and you can achieve an even flow of notes, then do that. There is no benefit in using force during any technique. IMO, if it's uncomfortable then you're doing it wrong.

 

If you are going to use one finger per fret on a chromatic scale make sure you DON'T anchor your thumb and then stretch for the notes. Always move your thumb/hand so your fingers can reach the notes without stretching.

 

You can play a chromatic scale with just one finger. Try that and see how many times your thumb moves. That's how mobile your hand/thumb should be.

 

I play extended chromatic runs playing alternate 3 notes then 6 notes (in two groups of 3 i.e. 1-2-3-slide-1-2-3) per string, so all 3 note groups using 1-2-3 fingering. I find this less awkward that doing 1-2-3-4-slide-4 (or 1-slide-1-2-3-4) on each string. Probably the only person in the world who does it that way 😉. My rationale for doing it this is way that the classic way means you are sliding immediately before/after changing string where as with my way the slide is mid run albeit 3 frets instead of 1 ..

Edited November 11, 2021 by bassman7755

[WishICouldWalk]

On 06/11/2021 at 07:35, Biscuit_Bass said:

Hi all,

 

Had my first lesson yesterday and really struggled switching between my middle finger and ring finger when trying a chromatic scale. It just wouldn't stretch far enough. Would I be better off trying the 1-2-4 method, or is it a good thing to persevere and learn to use all four fingers?

Cheers

If you're a complete beginner, everything will be a challenge. Persevere with whatever your teacher is showing you and eventually you'll choose 1-2-4 or one finger per fret depending on the situation. We all went through exactly the same struggles as you are going through so give it time and try not to get frustrated.

[NickA]

1 2 4 on double bass, up to the octave; then 1 2 3 or thumb 1 2 3.  But hand rotations are also used to get an extra semi-tone without moving the thumb (in fact there is a whole alternative double bass technique that uses rotations in every position). 

 

Something similar to double bass 124 on electric bass would be a good idea (and recommended by several good on line bass teachers) but electric basses dont have that natural break at the heel of the neck telling you / forcing you to change technique; so I struggle to work out when to change from 124 to 123(4) ... too confusing for my little brain; so one finger per fret all the way up - but I will do a back extension to get an extra semitone in without moving my thumb ... comes from also being a 'cellist, where we have to cover 6 semi-tones per position with only four fingers (tiny scale length)

 

Anyway to the OP, unless you have tiny hands, one finger per fret is simpler because if you try to use double bass 124 technique you will have to change to 123(4) at some point anyway.  Stick with it - it's a smaller reach than 124 on a double bass!

[Stub Mandrel]

When I started to learn, a mate loaned me his precision(!) on the condition I used one finger per fret.

 

I have big hands and it stood me in good stead, but in practice I change my fingering between 1fpF and 1,2,3 (not 1,2,4 which I find clumsy, you don't need that extra strength of two fingers on electric bass) according to what I am playing.

 

Most tab seems to be written for 12,3 or 1,2,4 and has lots of hand movement. 1fpf allows much more economy of movement and I find it a lot faster and cleaner no having to hop between strings so much, but sometimes  more compact fingering allows you to sit in the groove and relax or to power through some fairly static straight eights.

 

So, my suggestion would be to learn both techniques and use what you feel comfortable with when it feels most comfortable. I am sure changing styles over the course of a practice session or song or set has to be good for avoiding injuries and for improving your overall playing .

[TKenrick]

On 04/01/2022 at 17:26, NickA said:

electric basses dont have that natural break at the heel of the neck telling you / forcing you to change technique; so I struggle to work out when to change from 124 to 123(4) ...

 

The content of the music informs the technique you use to play it; sometimes it's 1234 in 1st position, sometimes it's Simandl above the 12th fret. Whatever makes the music sound best.

[Biscuit_Bass]

On 04/01/2022 at 17:26, NickA said:

1 2 4 on double bass, up to the octave; then 1 2 3 or thumb 1 2 3.  But hand rotations are also used to get an extra semi-tone without moving the thumb (in fact there is a whole alternative double bass technique that uses rotations in every position). 

 

Something similar to double bass 124 on electric bass would be a good idea (and recommended by several good on line bass teachers) but electric basses dont have that natural break at the heel of the neck telling you / forcing you to change technique; so I struggle to work out when to change from 124 to 123(4) ... too confusing for my little brain; so one finger per fret all the way up - but I will do a back extension to get an extra semitone in without moving my thumb ... comes from also being a 'cellist, where we have to cover 6 semi-tones per position with only four fingers (tiny scale length)

 

Anyway to the OP, unless you have tiny hands, one finger per fret is simpler because if you try to use double bass 124 technique you will have to change to 123(4) at some point anyway.  Stick with it - it's a smaller reach than 124 on a double bass!

I think my issue at the moment, being so new to the instrument is the fact that I simply cannot do 1fpf. I'm sure it'll come, but it's just so uncomfortable/painful to even try at this stage. I'll keep trying occasionally, and hopefully as I improve I'll naturally fall into it as my fingers loosen up.

[itu]

Has the bass been adjusted by a seasoned luthier? Are the strings very old and thick? How about a professional setup and a 40 - 100 set?

[chris_b]

1 minute ago, Biscuit_Bass said:

I think my issue at the moment, being so new to the instrument is the fact that I simply cannot do 1fpf. I'm sure it'll come, but it's just so uncomfortable/painful to even try at this stage.

 

If you are experiencing discomfort or pain stop doing whatever it is that is causing the problem. The bottom line. . . if you are experiencing pain then you are doing it wrong.

 

If the cause is 1fpf then stop and use 124.

 

On the lower notes, for most people, 124 is the better technique anyway. This is not because you are a learner, it's because you are trying to use the "wrong" technique for your hands. If you have big hands or are double jointed and can get away with 1fpf then OK but if you haven't got those hands, don't do it.

[Biscuit_Bass]

5 hours ago, itu said:

Has the bass been adjusted by a seasoned luthier? Are the strings very old and thick? How about a professional setup and a 40 - 100 set?

Not yet, I'm getting it booked in soon though - the local luthier I spoke to said to play the instrument for a few weeks to get a feel for what I want to change and to let the instrument settle a bit. According to Yamaha's website the stock strings it comes with are D'Addario EXL170 / 0.045-0.100.

 

 

5 hours ago, chris_b said:

 

If you are experiencing discomfort or pain stop doing whatever it is that is causing the problem. The bottom line. . . if you are experiencing pain then you are doing it wrong.

 

If the cause is 1fpf then stop and use 124.

 

On the lower notes, for most people, 124 is the better technique anyway. This is not because you are a learner, it's because you are trying to use the "wrong" technique for your hands. If you have big hands or are double jointed and can get away with 1fpf then OK but if you haven't got those hands, don't do it.

Yeah I've stopped trying for now and am shifting my hand up and down instead. I don't seem to be getting any pain now that I'm relaxing more.

[itu]

12 minutes ago, Biscuit_Bass said:

Not yet, I'm getting it booked in soon though - the local luthier I spoke to said to play the instrument for a few weeks to get a feel for what I want to change and to let the instrument settle a bit. According to Yamaha's website the stock strings it comes with are D'Addario EXL170 / 0.045-0.100.

Excellent.

 

Although the stock strings are 45-100, I would try a 40-95 set instead. It is slightly lighter and might help with the fingerings. This set is one of my personal favourites - please find yours via several trials. The lightest I have used has been 30-90. Really twangy.

https://www.daddario.com/products/guitar/bass-guitar/xl-prosteels-bass/eps220-prosteels-bass-super-light-40-95-long-scale/

[NickA]

1 hour ago, Biscuit_Bass said:

shifting my hand up and down instead.

Don't. Anchor thumb and use different fingers to get different notes.  Move thumb when you run out of fingers ... or anticipate running out of fingers further on in the tune.

 

Whilst many famous bass players have made a living out of shifting their whole hand up and down ( aka the "bunch of bananas" technique ) it's seriously limiting.  124 in the lower positions is a good method and more comfortable than 1f1f ... Just more intellectually challenging!😁

 

Ps: I've been playing the cello for 51 years .. still hurts.

[Grimalkin]

Instantly release the finger/s behind the one you are fretting with. No need to keep the stretch.

[NickA]

10 hours ago, Grimalkin said:

Instantly release the finger/s behind the one you are fretting with. No need to keep the stretch.

But then you will have to stretch back again, with a good chance of the finger landing in the wrong place.  I know I do it though, especially on fretless if I want some vibrato,; the key thing is keeping your thumb in a particular place for each set of notes.

[chris_b]

4 minutes ago, NickA said:

But then you will have to stretch back again, with a good chance of the finger landing in the wrong place.  I know I do it though, especially on fretless if I want some vibrato,; the key thing is keeping your thumb in a particular place for each set of notes.

 

The thumb should move whenever the note to be played lies outside the natural reach of the fingers. Learning to stretch is not the right way to play.

 

The thumb should also be moving in anticipation of the next note or phrase to be played. The thumb should never be "planted" but should either be moving or preparing to move.

[Grimalkin]

2.50:

 

 

I agree with chris_b above, the thumb should act as a pivot, the angle of which you can adjust for what you are playing.