Tone cabs PA position

[adriansmith247]

I am interested to hear your experience. 

 

I play db through an EA micro head through an EA 1x10 with Rev solo pu. Jazz gigs mainly. I also have an EA combo and a gk combo and both sound great 

 

I prefer playing through a single 10 inch cab. When I add a second cab to gain volume it sounds worse to my ears. I owned a 2x10 cab once and hated it

 

I can’t stand being connected to a PA system of any kind as I hear the sound from the PA and not my cab or bass. Only good if the sound engineer gives me a good monitor mix. 
 

if I can’t hear the acoustic character of my bass then I play worse and feel detached from the music being played.This happens in around 30% of the gigs I play. This leads to GAS

 

i have to keep my cab on the floor to get a sound. Tried it on chairs or stands and lacks bass. Amp position is usually near my feet so works in quite venues but not in loud ones  I have tried adding small wedge monitor but this makes it sound worse

 

there ends my little therapy session for the day 

Edited November 20, 2021 by adriansmith247

[basstone]

Hi Adrian

 

Is your second 10" cab identical to your main cab? if not they may not be well matched or even be out of phase, which could adversely affect the sound in particular the bottom end. It's always going to be hard to hear a 10" speaker on the floor, especially if you are standing to play your upright. Putting it on the floor does however make the bottom end louder as it's reflected directly off the floor. Have you tried tilting your amp / combo back, that is sometimes a good compromise.  Your EA amps have good eq options so maybe dialing up the bottom end and cutting some top may help - although I expect you've already tried that!  Finally if your pu is passive it will work best with a really high input impedance preamp. Not sure what the specs are of your amps?

 

Regarding the use of DI and PA, if you get the sound you want in your amp and then DI  post eq. from your amp a good PA / monitor setup should sound close to your desired sound. I personally never use a DI box between my bass and the amp. Again if you have a passive pickup the DI box input impedence will be affecting your sound.

 

I play mainly fretless bass guitar and use a 1 x 10" custom built combo. I usually put it on a chair between me and the drums so that we can both hear it well. Hope that's some food for thought.  Cheers

[adriansmith247]

Hi Basstone

thanks for replying. much appreciated When I use the ea combo it is with a matched ea cab. It just sounds overblown and lacks the clarity of a single cab. Sounds awesome with electric though

i am looking at getting a 1x12 but would really like an extreme tilt up if possible but never figure out how to do that. I had some success just putting my old gk combo on its back 

 

most gigs have a lack of space for good position of amp

 

the issue I have with a pa is that I cannot deal with hearing my sound coming out from somewhere that my bass is not, if that makes sense

 

to be fair I am a happy bass player. Just putting some thoughts out there really

[symcbass]

A Fearless F112 would give you the tilt back option, and the cab/crossover is based around the concept of loud upright bass amplification. I've got a pair of the bigger F115's and they are amazing for replicating loud acoustic tone. Mine were built by Tricky Audio, I'd recommend contacting Guy from them if you were interested.

[basstone]

49 minutes ago, adriansmith247 said:

Hi Basstone

thanks for replying. much appreciated When I use the ea combo it is with a matched ea cab. It just sounds overblown and lacks the clarity of a single cab. Sounds awesome with electric though

i am looking at getting a 1x12 but would really like an extreme tilt up if possible but never figure out how to do that. I had some success just putting my old gk combo on its back 

 

most gigs have a lack of space for good position of amp

 

the issue I have with a pa is that I cannot deal with hearing my sound coming out from somewhere that my bass is not, if that makes sense

 

to be fair I am a happy bass player. Just putting some thoughts out there really

Try to listen to the bc112 project cab. It’s a bit bigger but is not heavy. It’s designed to work well on the floor but with good dispersion so you can hear it as well

 

[adriansmith247]

I’ll check that out

sounds like a good project too

[Downunderwonder]

The airy woody overtones that distinguish the DB are easily messed up by destructive interference from dual cabs. They also don't come back from the front PA to you nearly as well as the low bass. You'd be a candidate for IEM.

 

Otherwise you definitely need to point your one cab directly at your head.

[Phil Starr]

Hi Adrian I don't know if Chard is too far deep into Somerset for you but we have been wondering if our 110T might be useful to upright players, and I might have other solutions for you too. I've been looking for someone to try our cabs with DB so if you fancied driving across you'd be welcome to try the BC cab, I could probably get one of our BC 12's up here too. 

 

You'd be helping me too, amplifying DB poses a number of technical and musical challenges so talking through things with a proper bassist would be a great way to spend an hour or two

[NickA]

I was at a professional jazz gig last night, superb bass player beset by a boomy acoustic.  I think it was because the room was a bit echoey and they'd put him  and his coda combo in a corner, those codas sound great but are deliberately omnidirectional.   Room placement seems critical.

 

I'm surprised you get affected by PA speakers, aren't they usually out front firing forwards?  I don't like them either from an audience pov because the sounds no longer come from the individual instruments, but it's never bothered me when standing at the back.  I only really hear the sound from my amp (it's a pjb flight case which has a couple of upfiring speakers) and feel the vibrations from the bass itself.

[adriansmith247]

9 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

The airy woody overtones that distinguish the DB are easily messed up by destructive interference from dual cabs. They also don't come back from the front PA to you nearly as well as the low bass. You'd be a candidate for IEM.

 

Otherwise you definitely need to point your one cab directly at your head.

 

Thanks, I suspected as much. Every time I hook up a second cab, the sound gets worse, and every time I hook up to a PA it is even worse again, sometimes impossible to hear myself. I don't want to over complicate my setup with IEM but it would certainly solve the issue, I agree. 

[adriansmith247]

5 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Hi Adrian I don't know if Chard is too far deep into Somerset for you but we have been wondering if our 110T might be useful to upright players, and I might have other solutions for you too. I've been looking for someone to try our cabs with DB so if you fancied driving across you'd be welcome to try the BC cab, I could probably get one of our BC 12's up here too. 

 

You'd be helping me too, amplifying DB poses a number of technical and musical challenges so talking through things with a proper bassist would be a great way to spend an hour or two

Hi, that sounds interesting. Yes I could pop over sometime, although busy in the near future. I'll pm you, thanks

[adriansmith247]

3 hours ago, NickA said:

I was at a professional jazz gig last night, superb bass player beset by a boomy acoustic.  I think it was because the room was a bit echoey and they'd put him  and his coda combo in a corner, those codas sound great but are deliberately omnidirectional.   Room placement seems critical.

 

I'm surprised you get affected by PA speakers, aren't they usually out front firing forwards?  I don't like them either from an audience pov because the sounds no longer come from the individual instruments, but it's never bothered me when standing at the back.  I only really hear the sound from my amp (it's a pjb flight case which has a couple of upfiring speakers) and feel the vibrations from the bass itself.

That pjb sounds interesting. I didn't know they had speakers facing up. Now I have more GAS

Is this it? https://philjonesbass.net/cms/index.php/product_bg-800/

 

 

The PA systems I play through, albeit not that often it has to be said, are usually small and pretty close to the band. I can usually hear the sound from the PA which seems to suck all the life out of my setup. More volume and a better angle into my ear is the solution but not always possible. 

 

One thing I have found is that when I place my cab on top of another cab, it doesn't lose as much low end as a stand or chair. I have considered taking a second cab just for use as a stand. (sounds crazy I know)

Edited November 21, 2021 by adriansmith247

[adriansmith247]

Now I have GAS for a PJB BG300 due to the upward facing speakers

and there is a BG150 for sale at a good price here

Anyone know if the BG150 can handle gigs with drummers? I would think not. My EA 110 cab just about does the job

[NickA]

I've got the bg150 (2 Up firing, 2 front firing).  Great for rehearsals and jam sessions  Too quiet for performing without a PA.   Sits on top of a pb300 ( 6 front facing) for gigs.  Only need a PA when playing outdoors.

 

Still needs the eq tweaking for room acoustics.

 

Ps: that bg150 isn't great value, especially when you factor in shipping from athens and post Brexit vat; I paid much less.  Then again, they're out of production ( because the neo speakers got so pricey I think ).

Edited November 21, 2021 by NickA

[Jakester]

I have in the past used my CMD121P on top of the matching NY121 but with the de-rigueur ikea laptop stand between tthem to angle the combo up. Worked an absolute treat. 

 

Perhaps try angling just the top speaker? Not too far from Wells so you're welcome to give it a go if you like. 

[DanOwens]

I hate gigging with a cab pointed at my calves so I’ve been using an amp stand like this for a LONG time. 
 

Whilst you do lose some low end when decoupling from the stage, with it pointing up you get more definition in the mids which, for me, is a reasonable compromise. Especially since I’m focussing on mids for intonation and articulation rather than low end.  
 

https://www.andertons.co.uk/guitar-dept/electric-guitar-amps/electric-guitar-amp-accessories/amp-stands/tourtech-tts-amp42-low-profile-amp-monitor-floor-stand

[NickA]

On 22/11/2021 at 20:18, DanOwens said:

since I’m focussing on mids for intonation and articulation

 

I'm always trying to make the amp output sound like my double bass "only louder", so don't like to boost the mids too much.  Although, the tutor at one of my Jazz sessions keeps leaning over my amp and turning up the low mids in the hope the horns can hear what I'm playing .....  could be putting out too much bass.

 

I guess the lesson is that what we want to hear is maybe not what the audience and the rest of the band want to hear!

 

 

 

[Lfalex v1.1]

On 21/11/2021 at 03:54, Downunderwonder said:

The airy woody overtones that distinguish the DB are easily messed up by destructive interference from dual cabs. They also don't come back from the front PA to you nearly as well as the low bass. You'd be a candidate for IEM.

 

Otherwise you definitely need to point your one cab directly at your head.

Definitely this. 

[DanOwens]

 

On 29/11/2021 at 10:01, NickA said:

I guess the lesson is that what we want to hear is maybe not what the audience and the rest of the band want to hear!

 

I totally relate to this! Its worth mentioning that once I heard someone else play my bass, I again re-evaluated what my bass sounds like. Since the PA, the amp and acoustically the bass sounds so radically different, really I get to choose what the sound is for me, and beyond that its in the hands of the gods. 

 

I play in a country blues quartet, so there's a LOT of room for me in the sonic palette and I definitely take up the space with my NS or my doghouse, but your requirements may be otherwise. 

 

I recently bought an IR loader so I can further complicate things 😃 but realistically, balancing the feedback is usually my primary concern, then having a low end presence, then mid articulation. Different environments require different priorities, but having a cab pointed at MY head (on a cab stand) was a godsend. 

[pete.young]

On 20/11/2021 at 12:30, adriansmith247 said:

i am looking at getting a 1x12 but would really like an extreme tilt up if possible but never figure out how to do that. I had some success just putting my old gk combo on its back 

 

 

Tecamp and Eich 1x12 cabs (and also the Puma combos) have an effective tilt up - they come with a rod which you stick into a socket on the bottom, which allows it to tilt a lot further than an amp stand.

 

Another option might be to put a PA socket in the bottom and stick it on a pole next to your ear. Some small combos come with this fitted as standard.

[adriansmith247]

On 01/12/2021 at 19:19, pete.young said:

Tecamp and Eich 1x12 cabs (and also the Puma combos) have an effective tilt up - they come with a rod which you stick into a socket on the bottom, which allows it to tilt a lot further than an amp stand.

 

Another option might be to put a PA socket in the bottom and stick it on a pole next to your ear. Some small combos come with this fitted as standard.

 

I am certainly interested in having something higher up. Has anyone every tried playing through one of those Bose arrays? The ones that have a bass cab and a long stick of speakers about 5 ft high

[Staggering on]

39 minutes ago, adriansmith247 said:

 

I am certainly interested in having something higher up. Has anyone every tried playing through one of those Bose arrays? The ones that have a bass cab and a long stick of speakers about 5 ft high

We use one for our jazz quartet and also for a 7 piece swing band and put everything through it and it is great. The drums aren't mic'd but horns, vocals(2), keyboard and my bass(usually DB but also EUB and BG at times) use it and it is easy to set up and if done properly we don't even need monitors. We had to get a bigger mixer but we use the small woofer and it sounds great. There are a lot of reviews and videos of the system in use, some bands use a separate unit for each instrument but we don't need that. Easy to set up and transport and doesn't take up much space on stage. They are expensive but for us it has been worth it.

[Owen]

On 20/11/2021 at 12:45, symcbass said:

A Fearless F112 would give you the tilt back option, and the cab/crossover is based around the concept of loud upright bass amplification. I've got a pair of the bigger F115's and they are amazing for replicating loud acoustic tone. Mine were built by Tricky Audio, I'd recommend contacting Guy from them if you were interested.

2 x F115 = dreamy!

[symcbass]

9 hours ago, owen said:

2 x F115 = dreamy

Total overkill Owen 😆

One is more than enough.....but yeah, the pair are amazing. 

 

[Owen]

53 minutes ago, symcbass said:

Total overkill Owen 😆

One is more than enough.....but yeah, the pair are amazing. 

 

One 12" speaker with huge excursion blah blah blah....... big cabs shift big air. Big air = yummy.