Tone cabs PA position

[adriansmith247]

I recently borrowed a Euphonic Audio Whizzy 12 cab. That sounded amazing and has a good tilt back. Pretty rare these days though

 

those Fearless cabs look amazing though. Thanks for the tip. If one comes up at a silly price I’ll be on it

 

Most of my sound at a gig is down to the room, amp placement and volume of the other musicians. Having said that I never need EQ other than to adjust the level of LF. I have an old EA iamp350 that has amazing EQ and it always sounded better using a little low cut and a cut around 4k

 

in fact, sound actually changes the way the bass plays and feels. A bad sound and the strings feel tight and I get tired hands

 

Last night the whizzy 12 cab cut through at a function gig with drums vocal piano and sax. All with my little EA micro

 

now looking for a Whizzy 12 (I know there was one on here recently at a very low price but I was young a foolish back then)

[TheG]

I used to play through a GK amp with 12 inch speaker. I bought and extension speaker and took it to a gig one day. I put one on top of the other in a stack and to my surprise it sounded worse!!! I couldn’t believe it! I thought I had just wasted a load of money on this extension cab until I tried separating the two speakers one either side of me. It instantly sounded better and that’s how I had it for ages.
 

I know sometimes space can be an issue but unless you have already try that out to see any difference. 

[TheRev]

14 hours ago, adriansmith247 said:

 

now looking for a Whizzy 12 (I know there was one on here recently at a very low price but I was young a foolish back then)

There's a Greenboy Crazy 8 in the amps & cabs for sale forum at a very reasonable £250.

These cabs are very highly regarded for double bass - do a search on the double bass forums on Talkbass for user feedback.

[adriansmith247]

10 hours ago, TheG said:

I used to play through a GK amp with 12 inch speaker. I bought and extension speaker and took it to a gig one day. I put one on top of the other in a stack and to my surprise it sounded worse!!! I couldn’t believe it! I thought I had just wasted a load of money on this extension cab until I tried separating the two speakers one either side of me. It instantly sounded better and that’s how I had it for ages.
 

I know sometimes space can be an issue but unless you have already try that out to see any difference. 

Exactly the experience I have every time. But you got me thinking 

I think I can remember reading about stacking on talkbass ages ago

Something about phase cancellation that you may not get with a 2x10

i also remember an article in sound on sound that discussed placement of bass bins. Not that I have a lot of options at gigs

I’ll try side by side or spaced next time I am out and in need of volume - good shout

Now I need a longer speakers cable and a 12 whizzy 😀

Edited December 5, 2021 by adriansmith247

[adriansmith247]

2 hours ago, TheRev said:

There's a Greenboy Crazy 8 in the amps & cabs for sale forum at a very reasonable £250.

These cabs are very highly regarded for double bass - do a search on the double bass forums on Talkbass for user feedback.

Thanks for the shout

I am considering this cab as I am only down the road and know how good they are. Trouble is I have a very nice EA 110 so would need to sell that and the. Still want a 112 for louder gigs

if I had a spare 250 I would go for it though 

[pete.young]

1 hour ago, adriansmith247 said:

i also remember an article in sound on sound that discussed placement of bass bins. Not that I have a lot of options at gigs

I’ll try side by side or spaced next time I am out and in need of volume - good shout

 

If this article is about PA bass bins, it probably won't apply to bass cabs which are full-range. My experience is that splitting cabs either side of the stage doesn't work and leads to even worse out-of-phase issues. Better to have identical cabs and stack them one on top of the other.

 

EA stuff just seems to work well with double basses though. I have an iAmp350 and a pair of VL110s , enough to make reasonable volume to the point where feedback becomes a consideration without changing the sound a great deal.

[adriansmith247]

1 hour ago, pete.young said:

If this article is about PA bass bins, it probably won't apply to bass cabs which are full-range. My experience is that splitting cabs either side of the stage doesn't work and leads to even worse out-of-phase issues. Better to have identical cabs and stack them one on top of the other.

 

EA stuff just seems to work well with double basses though. I have an iAmp350 and a pair of VL110s , enough to make reasonable volume to the point where feedback becomes a consideration without changing the sound a great deal.

You are right. I just checked on another site and consensus is to place as close as possible. I don’t like the sound though when stacked. Maybe it is too much volume as that messes with the bass a lot. The best result I have had is when stacking but with only the top cab in use. 

[Downunderwonder]

Any cab pointed right at your head and just loud enough to hear should do the trick for when you are getting FOH bass.

 

My double laminate corrugated cardboard fantastic wedge:

Cab sits with tail on the floor. Weight of cab jams the wings in position thus making everything rock solid.

 

Cost = zero save depriving the recyclers of some cardboard.

 

If your cab has a slot port that's where to stow the 'wedge'.

 

Make the folds down flat then cut down in one fell swoop so when spread out ot gives you a good slope. You can eye it in by spreading out your folded card next to the propped up cab and marking the low and high points then refolding flat and joining the dots with a straight cut.

[adriansmith247]

13 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Any cab pointed right at your head and just loud enough to hear should do the trick for when you are getting FOH bass.

 

My double laminate corrugated cardboard fantastic wedge:

Cab sits with tail on the floor. Weight of cab jams the wings in position thus making everything rock solid.

 

Cost = zero save depriving the recyclers of some cardboard.

 

If your cab has a slot port that's where to stow the 'wedge'.

 

Make the folds down flat then cut down in one fell swoop so when spread out ot gives you a good slope. You can eye it in by spreading out your folded card next to the propped up cab and marking the low and high points then refolding flat and joining the dots with a straight cut.

 

Do you have a photo of this thing in action? I am intrigued 

[Downunderwonder]

1 hour ago, adriansmith247 said:

 

Do you have a photo of this thing in action? I am intrigued 

I can draw some more but the original became kindling when I sold the cab.

[Downunderwonder]

On 07/12/2021 at 13:02, Downunderwonder said:

 

The resulting slope is a fair bit steeper than the cut slope, once it is spread out. With some geometry you can make to measure or eye it in like I did.

 

With the thing all folded down flat it makes for a single straight line cut, through 4 layers at the crest and 4 at the tail.

 

Easier to mark and cut but you get the idea. The drawing is a bit off at the tail which should show taller at the end peak.

 

The tail of cab sits on the floor and centre of gravity of the rest is within the guts of the 'wedge'.

Somehow I posted in the wrong thread,

 

Edit, and got the syntax all backwards and opposite ie wrong, now fixed!

Edited December 9, 2021 by Downunderwonder

[Downunderwonder]

From the side it looks like a trapezoidal wedge.

[Downunderwonder]

Note edit of previous post.

[Phil Starr]

I'm still following this with interest as I'd love to design something that was ideal for a proper bass. I came to bass late and probably won't get a chance to play one myself but it poses a different set of problems from designing an electric cab.

 

No one has said anything yet but I imagine an upright would suffer from a lot of problems with feedback and resonances; both in the air in the body of the bass and in the resonances of the large thin panels. It is certainly a problem with acoustic guitars and even hollow bodied electrics. Is this a problem?

[Owen]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

I'm still following this with interest as I'd love to design something that was ideal for a proper bass. I came to bass late and probably won't get a chance to play one myself but it poses a different set of problems from designing an electric cab.

 

No one has said anything yet but I imagine an upright would suffer from a lot of problems with feedback and resonances; both in the air in the body of the bass and in the resonances of the large thin panels. It is certainly a problem with acoustic guitars and even hollow bodied electrics. Is this a problem?

On loud stages I have had the front of my DB acting like a large microphone and could clearly hear the kick drum through my monitor even though it was not being sent there. So the instrument creates sets of problems before it even gets to amplification. I used to get all fussy about DB specific amps, but an Fdeck or a Vong HPF, both of which have a nice high impedance input sorts all that stuff out. A decent HPF sorts out nearly all the problems. The thud all we DB players crave does not really happen in the lower reaches of LF so a cab which does not actually go all the way down there is often better. The nicest not stupidly heavy cab I ever had was an ACME 12". It was bigger than your average 12 and that really let the speaker breathe. The nicest one of all was my Berg IP310 - but I could go on about that forever.

[adriansmith247]

I have had similar things happen over the years. Another issue is that the louder you amplify the bass, the less of the bass you will hear. People spend days, weeks, years experimenting with pickups, strings and amps. It is all very subjective and a lot goes out the window when playing loud, which is why I tend to avoid doing that where possible. Best gigs are when I can hear my bass acoustically. I think the additional volume from stacking cabs may be one of the reasons I don't like the sound.

 

There is a lot to be said for using a preamp with HPF. The times when I haven't used one and then had to plug into a PA have been terrible. Imagine trying to play subtle jazz bass when all you can hear is Sub Bass - I generally take a Fishman Preamp to PA gigs and use as a DI box, as I don't trust sound engineers with DB, and this is coming from an ex sound engineer (although the good ones are amazing) 🙂

 

For the record I use a Revolution Solo pu and EA micro with an EA 11 cab

A great setup for low volume gigs

 

 

 

 

[NickA]

Mine only suffers feedback if I do up my " sound clamp" pickup too tightly (too much pickup gain, I think).  The pjb combos are pretty directional and "non-boomy" too which helps.  I guess the other option is a phase reverser ( built into lots of dB specific amps .. but not mine); not needed one so far.

 

But yes there are sometimes non bass sounds coming through the bass amp ... that huge front picks up quite a bit of the other instruments.

[Phil Starr]

Thanks guys that's really helpful. I've been looking at smaller speakers and trimming the bass in the cab to concentrate on the second harmonic 80-160 Hz region. From what you are saying that's a good starting point. I'm also looking for a clean neutral sound for an acoustic instrument, it's such a rich complex signal I want to treat it honestly.

[TheG]

As stated earlier I didn’t have too good a time stacking the old GK 12 speaker and extension cab and so separated them out. But the phase thing that others have mentioned does seem reasonable at the same time. 
 

I’ve got an EA Doubler into a Bergantino 12 inch speaker that I use these days. Like everyone else I had the speaker on the floor by my feet. I found actually hearing myself on every gig was different. So I decided to bring into play my 2nd 12 inch Bergantino extension speaker which I usually save for really loud gigs but use it on lower level gigs too. I stack them one on top of the other there would be no room to separate those out either side of me!
 

I can actually hear myself these days and it’s not a volume thing. Maybe it’s just because the top speaker is higher up or maybe I’ve got clarity with 2 speakers working less hard? Probably a mixture of the two?

 

I do remember talking to someone about the 100/150 watt GK amp and they told me on a louder gig if you push an amplifier too hard it distorts but only subtly so past say 12 o clock position you just get more mush and if you pluck harder it’s just making it worse. 
This is why more modern amps have bigger wattages for clarity and headroom. 

[adriansmith247]

On 10/12/2021 at 00:41, TheG said:

As stated earlier I didn’t have too good a time stacking the old GK 12 speaker and extension cab and so separated them out. But the phase thing that others have mentioned does seem reasonable at the same time. 
 

I’ve got an EA Doubler into a Bergantino 12 inch speaker that I use these days. Like everyone else I had the speaker on the floor by my feet. I found actually hearing myself on every gig was different. So I decided to bring into play my 2nd 12 inch Bergantino extension speaker which I usually save for really loud gigs but use it on lower level gigs too. I stack them one on top of the other there would be no room to separate those out either side of me!
 

I can actually hear myself these days and it’s not a volume thing. Maybe it’s just because the top speaker is higher up or maybe I’ve got clarity with 2 speakers working less hard? Probably a mixture of the two?

 

I do remember talking to someone about the 100/150 watt GK amp and they told me on a louder gig if you push an amplifier too hard it distorts but only subtly so past say 12 o clock position you just get more mush and if you pluck harder it’s just making it worse. 
This is why more modern amps have bigger wattages for clarity and headroom. 

 

Sounds like you have a similar experience to me. I am more convinced to use two cabs stacked but only having the top one switched on. Kinda like an expensive beer crate (remember those? every venue with a stage had beer crates 🙂 Then again, I haven't played in a 'proper' music venue/pub for ages. They don't tend to like jazz)

 

Do those Berg cabs have a tilt back option? 

[TheG]

No tilt back option. I did think about that at one stage either using a “block“ of some kind or using an amp stand to tilt it back. But the amp head kept sliding off when using a block and I didn’t want to put it on the floor so didn’t explore it too much. 
But easy enough to experiment with. 

[Downunderwonder]

35 minutes ago, TheG said:

No tilt back option. I did think about that at one stage either using a “block“ of some kind or using an amp stand to tilt it back. But the amp head kept sliding off when using a block and I didn’t want to put it on the floor so didn’t explore it too much. 
But easy enough to experiment with. 

A Z shelf or even a piece of string stops an amp from sliding off.