The law of diminishing returns, Tonewood and other folly’s

[tauzero]

In 1987, when I bought my Warwick JD Thumb, there simply wasn't another bass around that was anywhere near as playable - for me, anyway, these things are subjective. So it wasn't a question of diminishing returns but of being able to get what cheaper basses were completely unable to provide.

[scannerman]

 I used to have 10 basses in my possession, all relatively standards (stingray, warwick,...). Then a few years back I moved them on  went down to 2  basses, a Dingwall Z3 and Skjold Fretless.  Not cheap basses at all, but instruments that I found a connection with that I'd never done so before. Being able to play what was in your head and get it out thorough your hands via the instrument is [cheesey]  priceless! 

If you can find this on a cheap(er) bass, go for it,   unfortunately I seemed to have expensive sounds in my head. 

Interestingly, I used to chop/change my old bass collection regularly, not now, I've had the 2 basses for 6 years +

[itu]

A basic J or P is not the instrument for me. Those old bulky and heavy logs do not interest me at all. A modern lightweight Sadowsky, maybe, but no.

 

CNC is a tool that one has to master. Combined with the knowledge about woods means that a machined instrument may be good, or not. It is the same with any basic hand tools.

 

I like carbon necks. Their pricepoint is higher than some J bass, but I have been ready to save a bit longer and get better performance. This includes weather resistance among others. Quality is a set of features.

Edited January 23, 2022 by itu

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, itu said:

I like carbon necks. Their pricepoint is higher than some J bass, but I have been ready to save a bit longer and get better performance. This includes weather resistance among others. 

 

I guess that is handy if you busk in the rain a lot

 

[itu]

5 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

I guess that is handy if you busk in the rain a lot

 

You should see our gigs in the rain and snow... hey, swimming pool is still a possibility!

[Jimothey]

The most expensive bass I've played was a US standard P bass and the cheapest is a £25 no brand p bass (both in my hands still sounded S**t tho!) but I prefered playing the £25 one as it felt better to play but I know that some people wouldn't even accommodate the idea of playing of a no brand bass which does seem like snobbery to me

 

My main question is if the attention to detail and finish is one of the reasons you can charge £3k+ why with a bit of time and effort can't you set your bass up and sort out a few of the issues cheap basses may have and get it playing exactly how you like it and like a bass 10 times its value at nowhere near the the outlay? Then would that bass be of any less quality to you than a more expensive one so I think it can be subjective? But as I've never played anything high end I could just be talking out of my derrière? 👍🏻 

 

 

[Downunderwonder]

2 minutes ago, Jimothey said:

The most expensive bass I've played was a US standard P bass and the cheapest is a £25 no brand p bass (both in my hands still sounded S**t tho!) but I prefered playing the £25 one as it felt better to play but I know that some people wouldn't even accommodate the idea of playing of a no brand bass which does seem like snobbery to me

 

My main question is if the attention to detail and finish is one of the reasons you can charge £3k+ why with a bit of time and effort can't you set your bass up and sort out a few of the issues cheap basses may have and get it playing exactly how you like it and like a bass 10 times its value at nowhere near the the outlay? Then would that bass be of any less quality to you than a more expensive one so I think it can be subjective? But as I've never played anything high end I could just be talking out of my derrière? 👍🏻 

 

 

You got the last bit right. Certainly cheap basses have come a long way since 1969 but you're still looking at polishing something that came out the back end of a cow to get a gem like object.

[Boodang]

30 minutes ago, Jimothey said:

The most expensive bass I've played was a US standard P bass and the cheapest is a £25 no brand p bass (both in my hands still sounded S**t tho!) but I prefered playing the £25 one as it felt better to play but I know that some people wouldn't even accommodate the idea of playing of a no brand bass which does seem like snobbery to me

 

My main question is if the attention to detail and finish is one of the reasons you can charge £3k+ why with a bit of time and effort can't you set your bass up and sort out a few of the issues cheap basses may have and get it playing exactly how you like it and like a bass 10 times its value at nowhere near the the outlay? Then would that bass be of any less quality to you than a more expensive one so I think it can be subjective? But as I've never played anything high end I could just be talking out of my derrière? 👍🏻 

 

 

Well, I've got a Squier Jazz, not expensive, plays very well especially since a pro setup and new pickups. I've also got a not cheap Sei custom. No amount of tinkering with the Squier is going to get it close to the Sei which has a custom asymmetric neck and fingerboard profile. Apart from the exquisite finish on the Sei which the Squier could never match at it's price point, the custom element of the neck profile and body make it fit like a glove and that's something a generic bass like the Squier is not going to achieve. 

[Jimothey]

1 hour ago, Downunderwonder said:

You got the last bit right. Certainly cheap basses have come a long way since 1969 but you're still looking at polishing something that came out the back end of a cow to get a gem like object.

 

What that I'm talking out of my derrière? It was more of a hypothetical idea 

 

29 minutes ago, Boodang said:

Well, I've got a Squier Jazz, not expensive, plays very well especially since a pro setup and new pickups. I've also got a not cheap Sei custom. No amount of tinkering with the Squier is going to get it close to the Sei which has a custom asymmetric neck and fingerboard profile. Apart from the exquisite finish on the Sei which the Squier could never match at it's price point, the custom element of the neck profile and body make it fit like a glove and that's something a generic bass like the Squier is not going to achieve. 

But if you don't like a asymmetrical neck and you like the neck profile on a squier then is the more expensive bass better quailty no not to that person a custom made guitar is only worth the money for the person who commissioned it quailty and the value of something are two completely different things, everything is only worth what people are willing to pay for it! Would Wal's and Fodera's cost so much if people stopped buying them?

[Downunderwonder]

1 hour ago, Jimothey said:

Would Wal's and Fodera's cost so much if people stopped buying them?

Supply and demand allows the makers a little profit. Nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head to buy so I fail to see your concern.

[Jimothey]

5 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Supply and demand allows the makers a little profit. Nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head to buy so I fail to see your concern.

What are you going on about? Your completely missing the point or are you just trying to be argumentative? Read the OP then comment on what I have written 👍🏻

[Downunderwonder]

19 minutes ago, Jimothey said:

What are you going on about? Your completely missing the point or are you just trying to be argumentative? Read the OP then comment on what I have written 👍🏻

You haven't made a point. You have only reiterated propositions of the OP without stating a position.

 

Fancy basses appeal to some players who can afford them. So what?

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Jimothey said:

 

What that I'm talking out of my derrière? It was more of a hypothetical idea 

 

But if you don't like a asymmetrical neck and you like the neck profile on a squier then is the more expensive bass better quailty no not to that person a custom made guitar is only worth the money for the person who commissioned it quailty and the value of something are two completely different things, everything is only worth what people are willing to pay for it! Would Wal's and Fodera's cost so much if people stopped buying them?

What has a subjective opinion on taste and value got to do with an objective assessment of quality?

In addition, what has the price of a Wal or Fodera got anything to do with whether people buy them or not? The same applies to any consumer object - if no one bought it, it wouldn’t exist. 
 

You’ve answered your own question anyway - the law of diminishing returns is linked to individual assessment of value and what they’re prepared to pay for something. The only additional factor with a musical instrument is the player’s ability. Very good musicians may appreciate an instrument differently and see nuances that a less capable player would miss or disregard, and therefore have a different concept of value.

[Boodang]

7 hours ago, Jimothey said:

But if you don't like a asymmetrical neck and you like the neck profile on a squier then is the more expensive bass better quailty no not to that person a custom made guitar is only worth the money for the person who commissioned it quailty and the value of something are two completely different things, everything is only worth what people are willing to pay for it! 

Absolutely... if a Squier jazz is, for example, your ideal bass to play then you are going to save a lot of money. But as for quality, not value, well, there's only so much that can be achieved at the Squier level of production, even with cnc machining. The level of detail on the Sei is so much better and that makes it play and sound better. One example is the neck, and this might be the woods used as much as the construction, but the Squier has that dead spot in the 7th fret area of the G string, the Sei has no dead spots and the clarity and focus of the notes is superior. It's not that the Squier is bad, in fact it's a great jazz bass, but the Sei is definitely superior in sound and playability but it's the law of diminishing returns and it's a lot more money for a slightly better sound... but it is better.

[such]

A chest of drawers handmade of solid cherry wood by a proper cabinet maker will fit as many socks and it's drawers may even slide with a slightly rougher action than a £80 cardboard/mdf/plastic IKEA piece. Same premise. 

 

My only sub-£200 (when new) bass, an SX jazz, sounds absolutely great, just as nice (although different, thicker) as my MIJ Fender Marcus with Pure Vintage 74 pickups and Sadowsky preamp. Its neck is made of one of the nicest pieces of dense, even, straight grained quartersawn maple I've seen in person, with an equally pretty piece of rosewood topping it. It also has the worst fretwork I've ever seen, there were at least three different sizes of fret wire on that board. I had to grind some of them down to the stage where they are a flat slab of metal to get the action below 6mm at the 12th fret. Strings do not line perfectly along the axis of the bass, much closer to the treble edge of the fretboard. It bothers me, so one day I'll probably move the bridge (neck pocket fits too well to try and butcher that). Many of the screws were driven in so sloppy, I had to use a drill to remove the pickguard. Still, it sounds good and is pretty, so not going anywhere. But is my £1k custom P (cheap for a custom, yet easy to compare as both Fender shaped objects) a case of diminishing returns? Definitely not. Easily plays not 5 but 500 times better, and every single part, down to each screw and fret is a higher quality thing and installed WAY more expertly. Except maybe for the neck material, which is not really relevant if the bloody thing is not playable. 

[Grimalkin]

I've owned a few bits and pieces, Wal, Jaydee, Musicman, a short endorsement with Warwick. At the end of the day I like Jazz basses, I'm a fan of that sound and playability.

 

The bottom line is not what instrument you play, it's how well you can play it.

[Boodang]

2 minutes ago, such said:

Except maybe for the neck material, which is not really relevant if the bloody thing is not playable. 

Definitely the quality of finish is going to be related to cost (at least you hope so!) and usually that makes for a bass that plays better as well. But as for neck material not being relevant... well there's a lot of luthiers out there that think a big contribution to the overall sound is the neck, both in terms of construction and materials used. Given the dead spot on the 7th fret G string area of my maple jazz neck and the lack of one on my wenge/ebony 9 piece laminate Sei neck, I'm beginning to think they are not wrong!

[TimR]

The law of diminishing returns isn't about whether an expensive instrument is better than a cheap one. It's about how much better it is.

 

Is a £250 bass 10x better than a £25 one.

If not, how much better is it?

If it is, is a £350 one 14x better than the £25 one and 1.4x better than the £250 one.

 

And by logical extension is a £2500 one 100x better?

 

In order to quantify it, you need to set some parameters rather than, "I like this one better." which is entirely subjective. 

 

 

[Boodang]

8 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

The bottom line is not what instrument you play, it's how well you can play it.

I absolutely agree but at the end of the day you're going to go out and buy a bass and there's a lot of choice and a lot of ways to spend your hard earned cash. And no matter how well you play you still want the best sound (subjective I know!) and the best playability. If you turned up to the studio for a session with a bass you loved to play but the sound sucked (I know, subjective!), the strings buzzed and the pickups were noisy... well it's not going to be very popular! But these days thankfully quality basses seem to be a lot cheaper.

[Boodang]

6 minutes ago, TimR said:

In order to quantify it, you need to set some parameters rather than, "I like this one better." which is entirely subjective. 

Possible the only parameters are how much are you willing and able to spend!

[SumOne]

Edit: Repeating myself!

Edited January 24, 2022 by SumOne

[Boodang]

13 minutes ago, TimR said:

Is a £250 bass 10x better than a £25 one.

If not, how much better is it?

If it is, is a £350 one 14x better than the £25 one and 1.4x better than the £250 one.

 

And by logical extension is a £2500 one 100x better?

Although not as mathematically neat, the logic is probably reversed and the £250 bass is a 100x better than the £25, and the £2500 is only 1.4x!

[such]

20 minutes ago, Boodang said:

Definitely the quality of finish is going to be related to cost (at least you hope so!) and usually that makes for a bass that plays better as well. But as for neck material not being relevant... well there's a lot of luthiers out there that think a big contribution to the overall sound is the neck, both in terms of construction and materials used. Given the dead spot on the 7th fret G string area of my maple jazz neck and the lack of one on my wenge/ebony 9 piece laminate Sei neck, I'm beginning to think they are not wrong!

 

Of course! I absolutely love that quartersawn maple, one of the reasons I didn't return the bass (others' necks were not as pretty). But, what good does that beautiful material do in a bass where fretwork and even coupling the neck to the body are so botched that most people would either return the whole thing or consider replacing the neck. Hence, that other baas has a better neck, even if the maple looks less inspiring. That's what I meant

[TimR]

3 minutes ago, Boodang said:

Although not as mathematically neat, the logic is probably reversed and the £250 bass is a 100x better than the £25, and the £2500 is only 1.4x!

 

That's the question though isn't it. What is the relationship, as the basses get more expensive, the amount you have to pay to get a small difference is greater. But by how much. 

[TimR]

13 minutes ago, Boodang said:

Possible the only parameters are how much are you willing and able to spend!

 

Not really. That doesn't really enter into it. The diminishing returns happen regardless of what you're willing to pay.

 

The point at which the step up to the next one is worthwhile is one factor that might determine what you'll pay. 

 

I know anything over £2,500 I can't tell the difference. Doesn't mean there isn't one. It would be pointless me paying £3,500 for a bass. In fact I don't want to spend more than £500 on a bass. That's because I'm happy with a £500 bass, it does the job and I like the ergonomics. That's not because I can't afford a £3,500 or am not willing to pay that. I just don't need to.