The law of diminishing returns, Tonewood and other folly’s

[SumOne]

A £400 Bass will do fine and there are diminishing returns but global competition between brands is quite fierce and I've generally found that more expensive Basses are more enjoyable to play and easier to make sound good. And higher end basses hold their value well as they get older and rarer.

 

I'd recommend people spend as much as they can afford rather than being tight - it's something you might play for 1000s of hours for many years, and if you get a good one you might eventually sell for similar (or more) than you bought it for. 

 

[TimR]

There's definitely a law of diminishing returns. It also depends on your level of experience.

 

You'll be able to tell the difference between a beginner bass and an intermediate bass, when you are at an intermediate level, and the next level up and so on. Can you financially justify paying for that difference, its all down to the individual. 

 

I stopped noticing any difference after £1600, but couldn't justify gigging a bass that cost £1600, so £400 did for me.

 

The machineheads were rubbish and the pots have died. New machineheads were £50. Pots I changed myself for pennies. I also had issues with screws coming out of the strap buttons. But matchsticks and wood glue sorted that.

 

Rough edges on the frets also needed a bit of attention. 

 

 

[SteveXFR]

12 minutes ago, peteb said:

 

If you shop around you can pick up secondhand US Stingrays pretty cheaply. 

 

 

Yeah, I've seen 5 string US models for around £1200

[peteb]

1 minute ago, SteveXFR said:

 

Yeah, I've seen 5 string US models for around £1200

 

I bought one on here last year (early lockdown) for £1,050 and flipped it pretty quickly (sold it on commission at Bass Direct where I got about £900-£950 for it, so add 20% for what they sold it for). A few years before that, I bought one on eBay that had a few minor issues for about £700 and sold it for about £850 after cleaning it up and changing the jack socket. 

[peteb]

9 minutes ago, TimR said:

There's definitely a law of diminishing returns. It also depends on your level of experience.

 

You'll be able to tell the difference between a beginner bass and an intermediate bass, when you are at an intermediate level, and the next level up and so on. Can you financially justify paying for that difference, its all down to the individual. 

 

I stopped noticing any difference after £1600, but couldn't justify gigging a bass that cost £1600, so £400 did for me.

 

 

I'm surprised about that. As you say, it is all down to the individual and we all have different priorities, but I imagine that £1.6k isn't going to break the bank for you. Each of my main gigging basses cost me £1.6k secondhand and I gig them out regularly. I occasionally wonder about selling a few basses and getting a s/h Fodera or a vintage Fender, but that is where I would start to worry about taking them out to pub gigs (or even worse, multi-band festivals). 

 

10 minutes ago, SumOne said:

 

I'd recommend people spend as much as they can afford rather than being tight - it's something you might play for 1000s of hours for many years, and if you get a good one you might eventually sell for similar (or more) than you bought it for.

 

 

That's my attitude as well - life's too short to gig disappointing basses... 

 

[Boodang]

40 minutes ago, TimR said:

There's definitely a law of diminishing returns. It also depends on your level of experience.

 

You'll be able to tell the difference between a beginner bass and an intermediate bass, when you are at an intermediate level, and the next level up and so on. Can you financially justify paying for that difference, its all down to the individual. 

 

I stopped noticing any difference after £1600, but couldn't justify gigging a bass that cost £1600, so £400 did for me.

 

The machineheads were rubbish and the pots have died. New machineheads were £50. Pots I changed myself for pennies. I also had issues with screws coming out of the strap buttons. But matchsticks and wood glue sorted that.

 

Rough edges on the frets also needed a bit of attention. 

 

 

If you get an expensive bass, show it no quarter! Once over the shock of the first scratch you'll use it for what it was meant... playing. Don't deny the audience the awesome tone of your prize bass!

Completely unrelated but relevant nonetheless... I lived in a place where mains generators were critical. The engineer suggested that they would last longer if we used them less... I suggested that if we didn't use them at all they would never wear out!

[casapete]

1 hour ago, peteb said:

 

I bought one on here last year (early lockdown) for £1,050 and flipped it pretty quickly (sold it on commission at Bass Direct where I got about £900-£950 for it, so add 20% for what they sold it for). A few years before that, I bought one on eBay that had a few minor issues for about £700 and sold it for about £850 after cleaning it up and changing the jack socket. 

Used US Stingrays ( like a lot of other basses) do seem to have crept up over the last couple of years. You used to have your pick of a few around the £750 / £800 mark, whereas now they fetch around a grand. I guess this is largely due to them going up in price when bought new?

Mexican Fenders are the same - Precisions / Jazzes  as well as Strats and Teles were all around £300 s/h not long ago, now mainly £400 / £450, although some can be bought new for not that much more. Blame lockdown perhaps, or is it just good old supply and demand? 

Flip side of this is if you’re looking for a loud & heavy amp - they seem to be hanging around for ages at what were once considered to be giveaway prices. I sold an immaculate Fender 600 watt head and matching 6x10 cab during lockdown for next to nowt. 😕

[chris_b]

10 hours ago, tegs07 said:

I think most people would agree that technology, a cheaper manufacturing base  and production workflow has improved to such an extent that no working musician really needs to spend more than £400 on an instrument. If we get rid of marketing costs behind a brand this would probably drop to nearer the £200 mark.

Does this seem a reasonable conclusion?

 

Not even remotely reasonable.

[Downunderwonder]

You are basically trying to imply there should be no consumerism involved in basses. What makes basses different to almost everything else you can buy?

[tegs07]

4 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

You are basically trying to imply there should be no consumerism involved in basses. What makes basses different to almost everything else you can buy?

Nothing of the sort. I’m trying to work out what opinions there are on here regarding inexpensive vs top end instruments. I’m particularly interested in views from people that that really dislike big brands and get all het up by the claims of top luthiers.

[tegs07]

6 hours ago, chris_b said:

 

Not even remotely reasonable.

Why? I’m interested in the range of opinions on here. Personally I think every incremental improvement on an instrument from wood choice to a great finish makes a fine instrument and is worth the additional cost even if that extra cost doesn’t really make a difference to how good the instrument plays or sounds after a certain price point. I don’t really mind if brands use marketing or signature models to make fairly pointless variations of the same thing. I don’t mind if a luthier incorporates a bit of wood from a Pirate ship and says it invokes a sense of adventure and a mystical nautical tone. Whatever works for you. However it clearly annoys some people.

[SumOne]

4 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

I don’t mind if a luthier incorporates a bit of wood from a Pirate ship and says it invokes a sense of adventure and a mystical nautical tone. Whatever works for you. 

 

Take my money! 

 

 

Perhaps it's just a sign of my finances but I haven't gone for anything more than high end mass produced Basses. As the cost goes from £1,500 from them to >£3,000 for custom things made by some bloke in a garage (with suitable artistic photos of him working on it) that's the point where the diminishing returns thing stops being worthwhile for me, if I had the spare cash though I'd go for the pirate ship wood hand carved by a beardy bloke over several months. 

[Downunderwonder]

24 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Nothing of the sort. I’m trying to work out what opinions there are on here regarding inexpensive vs top end instruments. I’m particularly interested in views from people that that really dislike big brands and get all het up by the claims of top luthiers.

I have played some inexpensive basses. They didn't come up to the mark. I have played a couple of really pricey ones. They didn't do for me any better than my mid range ones.

 

For me so long as it is stable and plays well it's all good. I have had a few Fenders, to wind up with a Fender that I got relatively cheaply. It's a bit heavy so I may look for something lighter one day.

 

What I haven't seen here is any of the new miracle CNC pretty competent house brand stuff made cheap(ish). I wonder if the hardware will let it down.

 

As my Grandfather said.... 'Ye pays ye money and ye takes ye choice'.

 

My opinion of fancy wooded expensive basses is 'fine for you, not for me'.

[SteveXFR]

8 hours ago, casapete said:

Used US Stingrays ( like a lot of other basses) do seem to have crept up over the last couple of years. You used to have your pick of a few around the £750 / £800 mark, whereas now they fetch around a grand. I guess this is largely due to them going up in price when bought new?

Mexican Fenders are the same - Precisions / Jazzes  as well as Strats and Teles were all around £300 s/h not long ago, now mainly £400 / £450, although some can be bought new for not that much more. Blame lockdown perhaps, or is it just good old supply and demand? 

Flip side of this is if you’re looking for a loud & heavy amp - they seem to be hanging around for ages at what were once considered to be giveaway prices. I sold an immaculate Fender 600 watt head and matching 6x10 cab during lockdown for next to nowt. 😕

 

Heavy amp prices depend very much on the model. Old Trace Elliot SMX heads are around £200 while the all valve TE heads are £600+. I'm looking at Orange AD200B, Matamp Green GT200 and Ampeg SVT classic all valve heads at the moment and they start at around a grand. 

[drTStingray]

I suppose the answer to the OP’s question is - it all depends what the consumer is seeking from their purchase. 
 

It’s perfectly obvious that in any purchase there is an element of choosing between something which does the basics adequately - say gets you from A to B, performs a basic function etc etc. apply that to mobile phones - well why do so many people choose something like an iPhone or high end Samsung when there are far cheaper products that do at least some of the job equally well. The answer is very complex but part of it is the higher end stuff may have more functionality, look and feel more attractive and 101 other things. 
 

Apply that to a musical instrument like a bass guitar - take a simple entry level bass guitar like a Precision - available in a range from probably £100 to the skies the limit - will they all perform a basic function of providing a usable and functional instrument - well yes up to a point dependent on what else you are looking for from your purchase and to an extent, what sound you are looking for and pleases you. 
 

Many people will want a more refined sound, look, feel or (insert your own requirement(s)), that certain brands and types may give - and all of this is down to a combination of design, construction, electronics and the skill of the player to extract that sound - we can argue all day (probably with diminishing returns) which is more important, but ultimately it’s down to the user and their choice so you’re really discussing/arguing whose choice is right or wrong. 
 

Im sure there are types of cars available which perform a basic function only but I’d wager few people on this forum choose those - the reasons for their choices are way more complex!! But ultimately it’s what makes people happy with parting with their money (and their ability to afford financially to make those choices) which determines it. As to who’s right or wrong - well is there much point in debating that? 

[peteb]

24 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

It’s perfectly obvious that in any purchase there is an element of choosing between something which does the basics adequately - say gets you from A to B, performs a basic function etc etc. apply that to mobile phones - well why do so many people choose something like an iPhone or high end Samsung when there are far cheaper products that do at least some of the job equally well. The answer is very complex but part of it is the higher end stuff may have more functionality, look and feel more attractive and 101 other things. 

 

Funnily enough, I have started getting 'high end Samsung' smartphones for the last couple of contracts after years of getting cheaper ones. Although I'm not too bothered about mobile phones and always looked to save a tenner a month on a lesser known brand, I have now come to the conclusion that it is worth paying the extra to avoid the frustration of being stuck with a mobile for a couple of years that just does not do 'the basics adequately'. IME the Samsung is genuinely better and worth the extra cash. 

 

However, I haven't gone for an iPhone as that would cost even more than the Samsung and I don't think that it justifies the extra expense. 

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by peteb

[Beer of the Bass]

I do wonder if there's still a difference between performing the basics adequately when new, and continuing to do so under prolonged, heavy use like touring. There are a lot of individually small aspects (like the quality of pots and tuners, the hardness of fretwire, a truss rod that works smoothly without the nut stripping, etc) that aren't very noticeable with a new instrument that has an easy life, but which might still make the less budget offerings good value for some use cases.

[Boodang]

2 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

I have played some inexpensive basses. They didn't come up to the mark. I have played a couple of really pricey ones. They didn't do for me any better than my mid range ones.

 

For me so long as it is stable and plays well it's all good. I have had a few Fenders, to wind up with a Fender that I got relatively cheaply. It's a bit heavy so I may look for something lighter one day.

 

What I haven't seen here is any of the new miracle CNC pretty competent house brand stuff made cheap(ish). I wonder if the hardware will let it down.

 

As my Grandfather said.... 'Ye pays ye money and ye takes ye choice'.

 

My opinion of fancy wooded expensive basses is 'fine for you, not for me'.

Well, my Squier VM jazz must have been CNC'd and it was cheap. There hardware let it down a bit but not to a point where it didn't do a decent job and I'm sure it would have lasted. I've changed pups, electronics, bridge and nut and that's elevated it to an awesome bass. Partly because the 'ebanol' fretless fingerboard is so well done and there aren't many fretless basses with that kind of finish. A case in point where a cheap bass has come up with something where alternatives are expensive. Other than the VM other resin board basses are things like Pedulla which have a zero on the end of the price... if you can get one!

[bigjohn]

1 hour ago, peteb said:

 

Funnily enough, I have started getting 'high end Samsung' smartphones for the last couple of contracts after years of getting cheaper ones. Although I'm not too bothered about mobile phones and always looked to save a tenner a month on a lesser known brand, I have now come to the conclusion that it is worth paying the extra to avoid the frustration of being stuck with a mobile for a couple of years that just does not do 'the basics adequately'. IME the Samsung is genuinely better and worth the extra cash. 

 

However, I haven't gone for an iPhone as that would cost even more than the Samsung and I don't think that it justifies the extra expense. 

 

 

Much like buying used instruments, the value is in buying 2 year old phones and getting a decent sim only deal when they come up.  I've been using an iPhone 8 plus for about 5 years. It cost me about £300 (so about £5 a month and getting less as time goes by). I've got a sim only deal that gives me free calls and texts with 4GB of data that costs me about £12 a month. The first contract I took out for this phone was less than a tenner a month with 1GB. It's a perfectly good phone. 

 

New phones on contracts are expensive. 

 

[bassman7755]

1 hour ago, peteb said:

Funnily enough, I have started getting 'high end Samsung' smartphones for the last couple of contracts after years of getting cheaper ones.

Generally our free market system ensures that when you pay more, you get more (amount/quality/whatever), I think the problem with electric guitars and basses in particular is the amount of mystique and folklore around various things like supposed tone woods and what not which makes it hard to know whether the more expensive thing is objectively better.

[drTStingray]

If we applied the same sort of approach to electric instruments as orchestral players do, why is it then that orchestral players may pay £10s of k for their instruments or even hire one which has even more value, when for anyone who has children who learn instruments will know student instruments can be had for the outlay of £100s rather than £1000s + (thankfully)?

 

It would be interesting to hear the sound of an entire symphony orchestra playing student instruments - I think sound and it’s appreciation is a very subjective thing and works also at the margins where, to some people, an imperceptible difference is a massive chasm to others. When I hear people say, of bass sounds, it’ll not be detectable in the mix, well that’s certainly true in some mixes (especially some pop music of the last decade or more) but ask it to do a more fundamental job in the music performed (rather than background plodding and mush)  and place it higher in the mix, I’m afraid I completely disagree. That’s where your sound is crucial. It’s also fundamentally important to the player that they are happy with their instrument and the sound it makes - regardless of how much it cost. 

Some people work on the basis of getting great satisfaction out of a financial bargain - good luck to them - but that’s no reason to suggest others are paying through the nose to achieve value which is not part of the bargain hunters’ core requirements. 
 

I once played in a tribute band to an early 60s famous pop outfit - the other guys were from an earlier generation and I always used to inwardly snigger as they loaded their newish Mercedes cars with flight cases to protect their cheap Mexican Fender instruments and wreck the inside of their expensive cars - but the idea of buying a Custom Shop Strat was to them anathema and an extravagance - a sort of an austerity attitude to their musical hobby and anything else would be an indulgence - whereas the cars demonstrated a different approach!!! 
 

The world would be a very boring place if we were all the same (especially if we all played Sunburst P basses 😂 - a sort of free market musical version of the Trabant to the motoring market)

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by drTStingray

[Boodang]

1 minute ago, drTStingray said:

If we applied the same sort of approach to electric instruments as orchestral players do, why is it then that orchestral players may pay £10s of k for their instruments or even hire one which has even more value, when for anyone who has children who learn instruments will know student instruments can be had for the outlay of £100s rather than £1000s + (thankfully)?

 

It would be interesting to hear the sound of an entire symphony orchestra playing student instruments - I think sound and it’s appreciation is a very subjective thing and works also at the margins where, to some people, an imperceptible difference is a massive chasm to others. When I hear people say, of bass sounds, it’ll not be detectable in the mix, well that’s certainly true in some mixes (especially some pop music of the last decade or more) but ask it to do a more fundamental job in the music performed (rather than background plodding and mush)  and place it higher in the mix, I’m afraid I completely disagree. That’s where your sound is crucial. It’s also fundamentally important to the player that they are happy with their instrument and the sound it makes - regardless of how much it cost. 
 

 

When it comes to orchestral instruments we're now looking at the difference between an acoustic instrument and a solid body. I play upright bass, there's a site which sells 'affordable' vintage DBs, they start at 40k! 

Acoustic instruments are a completely different kettle of fish to solid body. Look into the process of making an orchestral instrument in the violin family and you can see where the money goes, look into the process of cutting up some solid wood and bolting it together and it's difficult to see why it's expensive. 

[drTStingray]

12 minutes ago, Boodang said:

When it comes to orchestral instruments we're now looking at the difference between an acoustic instrument and a solid body. I play upright bass, there's a site which sells 'affordable' vintage DBs, they start at 40k! 

Acoustic instruments are a completely different kettle of fish to solid body. Look into the process of making an orchestral instrument in the violin family and you can see where the money goes, look into the process of cutting up some solid wood and bolting it together and it's difficult to see why it's expensive. 

Indeed they are but how much real value is added sound wise? And can the average listener tell the difference. I think, as with electric instruments, many can - but the same is true of acoustic guitars. The high level makes such as Martin and Taylor generally produce instruments with exquisite tone - but are cheaper instruments that different? Can the average listener tell the difference? 
 

There’s a world of difference in how different types and manufacturing of electric instruments are carried out, the cost and volume of the labour (and in which economy that’s based), the cost of materials and the perceived market value all have a bearing on it. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by drTStingray

[BigRedX]

13 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

Indeed they are but how much real value is added sound wise? And can the average listener tell the difference. I think, as with electric instruments, many can - but the same is true of acoustic guitars. The high level makes such as Martin and Taylor generally produce instruments with exquisite tone - but are cheaper instruments that different? Can the average listener tell the difference? 

 

Several years ago I was in the market for an acoustic guitar for recording. I spent a whole afternoon at a big name musical instrument retailer trying out all their acoustic guitars from the cheapest to the most expensive. It was quickly obvious to even a technically poor player like myself that I would need to spend at a minimum £1k to get an instrument that I would be happy with from a sound and playability PoV. In the end I couldn't justify spending that much and with the knowledge that I would never really be able to make do with any of the cheaper offerings now I knew what was actually possible at the upper end of the market, I left without spending anything other than an enjoyable 4 hours of playing.

[Boodang]

24 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

Indeed they are but how much real value is added sound wise? And can the average listener tell the difference. I think, as with electric instruments, many can - but the same is true of acoustic guitars. The high level makes such as Martin and Taylor generally produce instruments with exquisite tone - but are cheaper instruments that different? Can the average listener tell the difference? 
 

There’s a world of difference in how different types and manufacturing of electric instruments are carried out, the cost and volume of the labour (and in which economy that’s based), the cost of materials and the perceived market value all have a bearing on it. 

I agree, it's just we're lucky in the solid body world where the difference between cheap and expensive is very compressed compared to the acoustic world.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Boodang