The law of diminishing returns, Tonewood and other folly’s

[Grimalkin]

21 minutes ago, Boodang said:

I absolutely agree but at the end of the day you're going to go out and buy a bass and there's a lot of choice and a lot of ways to spend your hard earned cash. And no matter how well you play you still want the best sound (subjective I know!) and the best playability. If you turned up to the studio for a session with a bass you loved to play but the sound sucked (I know, subjective!), the strings buzzed and the pickups were noisy... well it's not going to be very popular! But these days thankfully quality basses seem to be a lot cheaper.

 Who would show up to a session with a bass that sounded like that?

[Grimalkin]

“The principles underlying propaganda are extremely simple. Find some common desire, some widespread unconscious fear or anxiety; think out some way to relate this wish or fear to the product you have to sell; then build a bridge of verbal or pictorial symbols over which your customer can pass from fact to compensatory dream, and from the dream to the illusion that your product, when purchased, will make the dream come true. They are selling hope.

We no longer buy oranges, we buy vitality. We do not just buy an auto, we buy prestige..."

 

Aldous Huxley - Brave New World Revisited.

 

The key word there, is prestige.

[Boodang]

2 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

 Who would show up to a session with a bass that sounded like that?

You would be surprised! I've always made an effort with gear so as not to let myself or the band/session down, but occasionally you see someone turn up with a total train wreck in gear terms like it doesn't matter and somehow their talent will overcome this... not a bad idea for a 'train wreck' stories thread elsewhere. 

[Boodang]

10 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

Not really. That doesn't really enter into it. The diminishing returns happen regardless of what you're willing to pay.

 

The point at which the step up to the next one is worthwhile is one factor that might determine what you'll pay. 

 

I know anything over £2,500 I can't tell the difference. Doesn't mean there isn't one. It would be pointless me paying £3,500 for a bass. In fact I don't want to spend more than £500 on a bass. That's because I'm happy with a £500 bass, it does the job and I like the ergonomics. That's not because I can't afford a £3,500 or am not willing to pay that. I just don't need to. 

I agree about not being able to hear a difference at a certain price point but interestingly it was more about playability for me. I was in a shop and played a Pedulla buzz, wasn't expecting much but for some reason it really gelled for me.... but the price! I had reached a point where I could afford the bass but was unwilling to do so. Now Pedulla have ceased making basses I'm regretting that decision!

[TimR]

6 minutes ago, Boodang said:

I agree about not being able to hear a difference at a certain price point but interestingly it was more about playability for me. I was in a shop and played a Pedulla buzz, wasn't expecting much but for some reason it really gelled for me.... but the price! I had reached a point where I could afford the bass but was unwilling to do so. Now Pedulla have ceased making basses I'm regretting that decision!

 

Yes. Sure. But it would have been in someone's price range. 

 

So the law of diminishing returns affects how much a individual is willing to pay for an instrument. 

 

But not the other way round.

 

And yes, sound, playability, etc are all factors. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by TimR

[BigRedX]

It seems to me that those who are having difficulty seeing what an expensive bass can bring are people for whom a bass guitar is either a Fender P or J or their close derivatives.

 

And TBH I can completely see their point. There's not a lot extra that can be brought to designs that have changed little in the last 60 years and whose USP was that they could be made cheaply using 1940s engineering operated by relatively unskilled labour. When you consider that CNC machines in the far east can churn these instruments out by the hundreds of thousands at a rate and price point that Leo Fender could never have imagined, it's impossible to see exactly how a US made P or J is so many times better than the equivalent Squier.

 

It also depends what exactly you want. If I wanted an instrument that would simply produce low notes in a pop/rock band then the second hand Burns Sonic I bought for £60 as my first bass back in 1981 would still be perfectly acceptable.

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by BigRedX

[chris_b]

These "I like my cheap bass, so why does anyone pay any more than I did because they aren't getting anything better than my bass" threads are tedious.

[Woodinblack]

The law of diminishing returns starts at 0 and starts goes down immediately, that is obvious. All that is being argued about here is what is the bit you are comfortable with. For all the people saying 'oh my £300 squier is good enough for anyone', there will be a load of  people who are 'get her, needs something fancy like a squier when a £100 bass makes those notes' etc. There is no objective level and never can be.

 

They have done many tests and found that in a blind test, virtually noone can recognise a stradavarious violin (excepting their own one), and also in a blind test, almost noone would pick a stradavarious as their prefered one (compared to other eye-wateringly expensive 'proper' instruments).

However, if you are a concert violinist with a stradivarius, with all other things being equal, I bet you get offerred more and better paying work than someone who has something different.

 

[Grimalkin]

When someone hires Pino, they are not hiring the instrument, they are hiring the player. One thing I like about Pino, is that he isn't too prissy about instruments.

[TimR]

30 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

The law of diminishing returns starts at 0 and starts goes down immediately, that is obvious. All that is being argued about here is what is the bit you are comfortable with. For all the people saying 'oh my £300 squier is good enough for anyone', there will be a load of  people who are 'get her, needs something fancy like a squier when a £100 bass makes those notes' etc. There is no objective level and never can be.

 

Of course there's an objective test.

 

For example. If you have a tuner that slips every now and again because you bought a bass with cheap hardwear, then the instrument is taking your time up getting right. And you'll put a price on that time. If you're in a session and spending time tuning that's costing everyone money because you thought you could save initially. 

 

There's a direct relation to the price you paid and the amount of maintenance. 

 

I've had hardware fail at a gig. Luckily I've had a spare bass. But the replacement hardware I bought is more expensive, better quality and more durable. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by TimR

[Boodang]

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

These "I like my cheap bass, so why does anyone pay any more than I did because they aren't getting anything better than my bass" threads are tedious.

Ah, but are these tedious threads about 'I like my cheap bass, so blah blah blah', more, or less, tedious than comments about how tedious they are?!

[peteb]

1 hour ago, Grimalkin said:

When someone hires Pino, they are not hiring the instrument, they are hiring the player. One thing I like about Pino, is that he isn't too prissy about instruments.

 

That's very true. Then again, he doesn't turn up to a session with a f***in Harley Benton... 

 

[Grimalkin]

10 minutes ago, peteb said:

 

That's very true. Then again, he doesn't turn up to a session with a f***in Harley Benton... 

 

 

I'll bet he would if he considered it the right instrument for the job. That's what I'm talking about.

[TimR]

Pino is quite selective though. 

 

https://mixdownmag.com.au/features/columns/gear-rundown-pino-palladino/

[Grimalkin]

[Boodang]

7 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

 

I'll bet he would if he considered it the right instrument for the job. That's what I'm talking about.

Pino is going to deliver what the client wants/needs and, as good value for money as it might be, a Harley Benton is not going to be the right choice. It's a bass that's cut to the bone with too many compromises for that.

[the_official_c]

I think the conversation gets a lot more interesting around the £800 -£1000 mark, especially if you include the second hand market.
 

You get so much more options for your money.

 

I own sire v7, fender jazz V elite & a mayones jabba 5 custom and have use all 3. Can the Sire sound as good as the others? Absolutely!

 

Is it as nice to play & as well built as the other 2? No. Not for me & it would be unfair to expect it to.
 

I think it’s more about is the difference in playability & your sound worth it to you.

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, TimR said:

Of course there's an objective test.

 

For example. If you have a tuner that slips every now and again because you bought a bass with cheap hardwear, then the instrument is taking your time up getting right.

 

So what if you have bought cheap hardware and it isn't taking your time. I never had a harley benton machine head break, but I have had a shaller one break.

 

 

1 hour ago, TimR said:

But the replacement hardware I bought is more expensive, better quality and more durable. 

 

If only that were a correlated thing.

[Grimalkin]

7 minutes ago, Boodang said:

Pino is going to deliver what the client wants/needs and, as good value for money as it might be, a Harley Benton is not going to be the right choice. It's a bass that's cut to the bone with too many compromises for that.

 

I don't think Pino cares for what is on the headstock, the bass Pino is playing in the pic above looks like a £90 pawn shop find.  He cares more for how a bass sounds and is it the right sound for the job. Pino has an exceptional pair of ears.

[TimR]

10 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

If only that were a correlated thing.

 

It is. Hence the diminishing returns. 

[Boodang]

1 minute ago, Grimalkin said:

 

I don't think Pino cares for what is on the headstock, the bass Pino is playing in the pic above looks like a £90 pawn shop find.  He cares more for how a bass sounds and is it the right sound for the job. Pino has an exceptional pair of ears.

Certainly true... but as well as tone it has to be playable. 

[martthebass]

4 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

It is. Hence the diminishing returns. 

I think this subject is far too subjective to be adequately described by a simple exponential or linear function........

[Doddy]

13 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

 

I don't think Pino cares for what is on the headstock, the bass Pino is playing in the pic above looks like a £90 pawn shop find.  He cares more for how a bass sounds and is it the right sound for the job. Pino has an exceptional pair of ears.

Maybe, but you can guarantee that that £90 pawn shop find will have been worked on by his tech to make sure it is suitable for a gig or session where 1000s of dollars are involved. He's not going to turn up with a fresh out of the box Harley Benton or a just bought, pawn shop Kay.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Doddy

[Grimalkin]

6 minutes ago, Doddy said:

Maybe, but you can guarantee that that £90 pawn shop find will have been worked on by his tech to make sure it is suitable for a gig or session where 1000s of dollars are involved. He's not going to turn up with a fresh out of the box Harley Benton or a just bought, pawn shop Kay.

 

Setting up a bass isn't rocket science.

[Grimalkin]

It ain't what you play it's the way that you play it. That's what gets results.