Getting into Jazz - where to start

[The Funk]

[quote name='urb' post='455129' date='Apr 6 2009, 08:38 AM']Well obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but Miles, unlike a lot of people in MOST genres of music, managed to reinvent himself every ten years or so, so to call Bitches Brew 'boring' is only really valid when comparing it to his all acoustic stuff from the 50s and 60s. And 'On the Corner' is some of the baddest funk you'll ever hear, and as for his trumpet playing, each to their own, while he wasn't a moster chops guy, the whole point with how he played (aside from his latter years when he was out of it), was to place a note perfectly in a bar, doing a lot more with a lot less.[/quote]

I have poster's remorse today.

Like I said, Miles Davis was a great composer, bandleader and innovator and I agree 100% with what you say about him reinventing himself every ten years or so. To go from Bop to Cool to Fusion with everything in between, while still being at the forefront of each movement is extraordinary. Noone else has ever managed anything similar (in any genre of music). But I'm still not a fan of his trumpet playing at all. It works on his records though.

As for Mike Stern, I can see he can really play but there's something that's just missing from his playing that I need from music. I much prefer John Schofield - his phrasing really does it for me.

[leschirons]

Ah the jazz argument. There are always going to be people who tell you "if you don't like THAT, your mad, listen to this , it's great, you like THAT? it's sh*te.

Well at the end of the day it's all only music whether it's got 2 chords or 167 chords and 15 key changes. If you like something, it's good for you, if you don't, then it's not.

Some think that jazz is some kind of deep philosophy. It's just music, some you can tap your foot to and some you can't like anything else. I love loads of jazz that others would call crap but who cares. Get some songs you like and try and learn them. Must be the place to start I would imagine. I don't think "Jazz" needs analyzing. Just my opinion.

I'll now wait for the floodgates to open.

[Hutton]

[quote name='leschirons' post='455356' date='Apr 6 2009, 12:58 PM']Ah the jazz argument. There are always going to be people who tell you "if you don't like THAT, your mad, listen to this , it's great, you like THAT? it's sh*te.

Well at the end of the day it's all only music whether it's got 2 chords or 167 chords and 15 key changes. If you like something, it's good for you, if you don't, then it's not.

Some think that jazz is some kind of deep philosophy. It's just music, some you can tap your foot to and some you can't like anything else. I love loads of jazz that others would call crap but who cares. Get some songs you like and try and learn them. Must be the place to start I would imagine. I don't think "Jazz" needs analyzing. Just my opinion.

I'll now wait for the floodgates to open.[/quote]

Never a truer word was spoken.

Edited April 6, 2009 by Hutton

[chris_b]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='455335' date='Apr 6 2009, 12:40 PM']Yeh - I just had a listen. Aren't they those "midnight at the oasis" dudes? If that's Jazz I give up right now... back to your elevator [/quote]
Jazz fans are some of the most open and some of the most bigoted. At least you're listening to suggestions and making your mind up, but Jazz is like weather; there are infinite types, some you like some you don't, some is extreme and some isn't. I could also suggest “proper” jazz like Eric Dolphy (Out To Lunch), Archie Shep (Mama Too Tight) and any Charles Mingus, but what’s “proper”? The Crusaders are Jazz, as is Jeff Golub, as is Ornette Coleman and Kid Ory. This is a great journey but remember to take an open mind with you.

[thepurpleblob]

I just want to improve my theory knowledge and listen to some new stuff.... please don't fight :-(

[The Funk]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='455365' date='Apr 6 2009, 01:05 PM']I just want to improve my theory knowledge and listen to some new stuff.... please don't fight :-(

[/quote]

Listen to as much as possible - but be prepared for uncontrollable violent reactions against some recommendations and don't let that put you off your search.

I think that seems to be the message.

[Bilbo]

The problem I have with recommendations about jazz is that it is easy to put people off by sending them off in the wrong direction and confusing them with second-rate product.

The 'its all music' perspective sounds perfectly reasonable and does prevent arguments but it also stops legitimate discussion (what's wrong with arguments, anyway? - its good to argue - its only bad to fight). It also means that nothing is bad, good, great or essential listening. Of course its subjective - we all get that but to suggest that the merits of Duke Ellington or Charles Mingus are no greater that those of Kenny G or Candy Dulfer is superficial. If you want to argue Sonny Rollins over Coltrane or Wynton Kelly over Erroll Garner, I'm listening but, when discussing what constitutes good jazz, to suggest The Crusaders are as meritorious as, say, the Bill Evans Trio is to deny the historical importance of each contributor. Its not all good. Its not ok to like everything - it lacks any form of critical thinking. An open mind is a great thing but an undiscerning mind is no more valuable than an closed one.

By the way, the Crusaders are OK. They just ain't great jazz....

[chris_b]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='455406' date='Apr 6 2009, 01:29 PM']....An open mind is a great thing but an undiscerning mind is no more valuable than an closed one....[/quote]
An undiscerning mind can become a discerning mind (isn't that called education?) but, watch out, because a closed mind usually stays closed.
The OP asked, "Where do I start? I have no clue about Jazz music - never listed to any which is probably a bad start. Any recommendations?"
As I said ease in.... start by paddling [i]then[/i] swim the Atlantic!

[lowdown]

[quote name='leschirons' post='455356' date='Apr 6 2009, 12:58 PM']Ah the jazz argument. There are always going to be people who tell you "if you don't like THAT, your mad, listen to this , it's great, you like THAT? it's sh*te.

Well at the end of the day it's all only music whether it's got 2 chords or 167 chords and 15 key changes. If you like something, it's good for you, if you don't, then it's not.

Some think that jazz is some kind of deep philosophy. It's just music, some you can tap your foot to and some you can't like anything else. I love loads of jazz that others would call crap but who cares. Get some songs you like and try and learn them. Must be the place to start I would imagine. I don't think "Jazz" needs analyzing. Just my opinion.

I'll now wait for the floodgates to open.[/quote]

Big +1...

Funny thing about all the players mentioned in this post.
Like or dislike them, they all have one thing in common.
You know its them, from sound and style,
From Jaco to Marcus, Sanborn to Miles, and every other mentioned on the Forum.
They are all unique....
Not much of that about these days...
All been done before.

Garry

[spike]

I've just started playing jazz in the past year or so, so here's some advice from someone who's only a little further along the road than you are.

As other have said, listen to as much jazz as possible. Miles Davis' Kind Of Blue is a good starting point.

Find out if there are any regular jazz jam nights in your area and go along to listen. You'll probably find there are several tunes that get played regularly that are easy enough for a jazz beginner to learn. At my local jam they are Watermelon Man, Chameleon, Cantaloupe Island (all Herbie Hancock), So What (Miles Davis from Kind Of Blue), C Jam Blues (Duke Ellington?).

I have found the Jamey Aebersold jazz playalong books to be very useful. Book one is a jazz primer and book 54 'Maiden Voyage' has several easy standards including Watermelon Man and Cantaloupe Island. They are designed for all instruments including bass.

[Bilbo]

AAAAAAAARGH!

If you want to know about jazz, stay away from jam sessions that play Canteloupe Island, Watermelon Man, Chameleon, C Jam Blues and So What!

Sorry, Spike, I know what you are saying is probably true but these jam sessions are, in my experience, rarely attended by anyone that can actually play any credible jazz. Its a tragedy but most good players would either be gigging or practising at home. These tunes are horrible (I actually refuse to play the first two - ever - and the others are rarely allowed out). They are seen by many as a great introduction to jazz but they are enough to put anyone off, particularly when played by people with bad time, no technique and no credible vocabulary. I too often see people at these sessions who have not yet dealt witht he fundamentals of their instruments and who are, to all intents and purposes, delusional.

Just imagine. If you were interested in seeing what jazz was about and went to one of these sessions as your forst experience; you would be put off it for life.

Find something more worthy of your time.

As for suggestions of what to listen to: look for my GOD, I LOVE JAZZ thread here. There are 100s of suggestions, from me and others.

[The Funk]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='455507' date='Apr 6 2009, 02:42 PM']AAAAAAAARGH!
[...]
Find something more worthy of your time.[/quote]



I'm trying to find an amateur jazz ensemble to join as a beginner. I've got my eye on a big band at the moment. Playing with rubbish musicians might put you off but I like the idea of being able to try things out and make mistakes in a fairly pressure-free environment.

[Bilbo]

Big Bands are a great place to start. You get to hear some great arrangements and play with some more experienced players. I think they are better because you can't even sit in unless you have a few basic skills under your hands. This cuts out the non-starters and makes for a more productive use of your time.

I am not complaining about people being relatively new to jazz, I am complaining about people at jam sessions that can barely get a note out of their horn let alone phrase an idea.

[The Funk]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='455546' date='Apr 6 2009, 03:14 PM']I am not complaining about people being relatively new to jazz, I am complaining about people at jam sessions that can barely get a note out of their horn let alone phrase an idea.[/quote]

I was laughing with you earlier. It's very rare that you get decent tunes / playing at a jam session - and when you do you often get people trying to show off in the most obnoxious way.

There's a bop jam at Charlie Wright's near Old Street which has a decent standard. The only trouble is that they're all copping the same Charlie Parker licks and it starts to get a bit repetitive.

Edited April 6, 2009 by The Funk

[Rayman]

Janek Gwizdala - Live @ the 55 bar
Adam Nitti - Evidence
Jaco Pastorius - Invitation
Miles Davis - Kind Of Blue
Wynton Marsalis - Citi Movement
Don Byron - Ivey Divey

All must have jazz CDs for [i]me[/i].

The first three are obviously bass guitar orientated, the rest are just pure genius. There are countless others I could mention of course.

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='The Funk' post='455061' date='Apr 6 2009, 12:21 AM']He [i]is[/i] boring. Great bandleader, composer and innovator but I think his trumpet playing sucks.

And don't bother with Mike Stern. The guy's exactly what's wrong with jazz today IMO.

Check out some Louis Armstrong, Django Reinhardt, Duke Ellington, Dizzie Gillespie, Miles Davis (his records are brilliant even if I don't like his trumpet playing), Oscar Peterson, Stan Getz, Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea and Joe Zawinul. Between them they have most things covered![/quote]

Sorry but I have to reply to this, 'cos you quite clearly don't know what you're talking about, or have never actually heard him.

His phrasing, choice of notes and knowing when not to play were amazing, and without comparison. LISTEN to one of his songs, and I mean LISTEN, not just hear it. He'll play when you don't expect him to, and there will be silence when you expect to hear him, and his phrasing will blow you away if you let it.

There's a wonderful version of 'Autum leaves' on the 'Blue note years' album, his playing is quite breathtaking, and so full of emotion.

[spike]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='455507' date='Apr 6 2009, 02:42 PM']AAAAAAAARGH!

If you want to know about jazz, stay away from jam sessions that play Canteloupe Island, Watermelon Man, Chameleon, C Jam Blues and So What!

Sorry, Spike, I know what you are saying is probably true but these jam sessions are, in my experience, rarely attended by anyone that can actually play any credible jazz. Its a tragedy but most good players would either be gigging or practising at home. These tunes are horrible (I actually refuse to play the first two - ever - and the others are rarely allowed out). They are seen by many as a great introduction to jazz but they are enough to put anyone off, particularly when played by people with bad time, no technique and no credible vocabulary. I too often see people at these sessions who have not yet dealt witht he fundamentals of their instruments and who are, to all intents and purposes, delusional.

Just imagine. If you were interested in seeing what jazz was about and went to one of these sessions as your forst experience; you would be put off it for life.

Find something more worthy of your time.

As for suggestions of what to listen to: look for my GOD, I LOVE JAZZ thread here. There are 100s of suggestions, from me and others.[/quote]

That's fair enough but we've all got to start somewhere. I know the tunes I mentioned might be the 'Smoke On The Water' of the jazz world to you more experienced guys but I still think they are a good way in. I don't think any of the jams I've been to have been as tragic as you've portrayed but maybe I've been lucky!

[Bilbo]

Don't know NItti but have all the rest. All great works. Good call, Rayman.

Isn't Don Byron great? Have your heard Bill Frissel's 'Have A Little Faith'? Superb.

[The Funk]

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='455561' date='Apr 6 2009, 03:27 PM']Sorry but I have to reply to this, 'cos you quite clearly don't know what you're talking about, or have never actually heard him.[/quote]

That may well be true.

I was trying (in a very stupidly put way) to reassure the OP that there wasn't something wrong with him for finding Miles Davis' trumpet playing boring. A Kind Of Blue is one of my favourite albums but his trumpet playing just doesn't do much for me.

Edited April 6, 2009 by The Funk

[lowdown]

[quote name='The Funk' post='455571' date='Apr 6 2009, 03:33 PM']That may well be true.
A Kind Of Blue is one of my favourite albums but his trumpet playing just doesn't do much for me.[/quote]

Just curious mate.
If you dont like Miles playing,
What is it about A Kind of blue you like?

Garry

[The Funk]

[quote name='lowdown' post='455581' date='Apr 6 2009, 03:43 PM']Just curious mate.
If you dont like Miles playing,
What is it about A Kind of blue you like?[/quote]

Everything else.

Hehe, no, his trumpet holds all the rest of it together, and his bands/compositions/records are generally very enjoyable but I just don't think he's all that great a trumpet player.

It was a moronic statement to say his trumpet playing sucks and there are a huge number of reasons why I respect the guy musically - but I'm not moved by trumpet playing, as opposed to his compositions/arrangements, the way most others are.

[lowdown]

Anyone fancy sitting in on this big band?
There is a hard act to follow mind.



Garry

[leschirons]

Interesting stuff all this. Makes you wonder if Miles Davis wrote a tune in 4/4 time going from A to D to A to E to D to A, would people call it great jazz or just another 12 bar in A.

I don't think I need to understand what people were trying to achieve when composing or playing. If it sounds good to me, then I like it, and therefore, is percieved good music to me. I went to see Andy Summers' trio at Pizza Express about 10 years ago. He played a number, talked about it's composition for 15 minutes, answered questions from a couple of guys in the audience about why he'd chosen to put an Ebm6+13b5+9E=Mc2 in at that point and spoke about how he'd got into Thelonius Monk at the age of 4 months. Some people really enjoyed it, great, but great, is in the eye of the beholder (or ear in this case) I can highly reccommend the four cheeses special.

And, I like David Sanborn. Marcus Miller seemed to as well. Or maybe some think he was just paying the mortgage when working with him as it wasn't proper jazz

Edited April 6, 2009 by leschirons

[blamelouis]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='455564' date='Apr 6 2009, 03:31 PM']Don't know NItti but have all the rest. All great works. Good call, Rayman.

Isn't Don Byron great? Have your heard Bill Frissel's 'Have A Little Faith'? Superb.[/quote]
Adam Nitti is one of the nicest people people you'll ever meet .
Fantastic player and lovely guy , all thats GOOD about bass.
Im on his myspace and he replies to questions and is soooo humble , and doesnt email you to see if you have nora jones's email address
Know what i mean Bilbo ?

Great interview here !

[url="http://www.bass-musician-magazine.com/General/bass-musician-magazine-detail.asp?article-id=102301881"]http://www.bass-musician-magazine.com/Gene...le-id=102301881[/url]

[Hutton]

[quote name='leschirons' post='455654' date='Apr 6 2009, 04:34 PM']Interesting stuff all this. Makes you wonder if Miles Davis wrote a tune in 4/4 time going from A to D to A to E to D to A, would people call it great jazz or just another 12 bar in A.

I don't think I need to understand what people were trying to achieve when composing or playing. If it sounds good to me, then I like it, and therefore, is percieved good music to me. I went to see Andy Summers' trio at Pizza Express about 10 years ago. He played a number, talked about it's composition for 15 minutes, answered questions from a couple of guys in the audience about why he'd chosen to put an Ebm6+13b5+9E=Mc2 in at that point and spoke about how he'd got into Thelonius Monk at the age of 4 months. Some people really enjoyed it, great, but great, is in the eye of the beholder (or ear in this case) I can highly reccommend the four cheeses special.

And, I like David Sanborn. Marcus Miller seemed to as well. Or maybe some think he was just paying the mortgage when working with him as it wasn't proper jazz[/quote]

+1 again.