1960/61 Fender Precision

[Boodang]

Perusing Bass Direct's second hand page to see if anything interesting had popped up and there, tucked away in the 4 string section, is a Fender Precision for 14.5K. 

Now, apart from the ludicrous price (or is it, as it's a piece of history?), does this mean the price and rarity signifies the death nail for it being heard at a gig? To be confined to the studio at best or a museum piece at worse? 

If I had the money I play the sh*t out of it live, after all it's not exactly a delicate instrument like a violin. Let's hope it doesn't end up pinned to wall in a hard rock cafe somewhere?!

But another thought occured, I can't afford a 60's bass but I can afford to get custom pickups made. Now given that a big part of the tone of an electric bass comes from the pickup (I know, tone wood, tone wood, tone woods!), can you you get a fair part of the way with a custom wound pup for a couple of hundred quid? I did a similar thing with my Squier Jazz but don't have the genuine article to do a direct A/B comparison... sounds good though.

[Steve Browning]

Wow. Only paid £575 for mine. Of course that was in 1986! That said, the E string was pretty much dead (even after changing strings).

 

I bought Japanese Fenders to take out on the road - theft is an ever-present threat, no matter how careful you are. I tend to use the 'old ones' for recording more than live work. They do get the odd trip out, though.

[Chiliwailer]

Will a custom pick up get you that tone? Not likely. (But you’ll likely get a great tone nonetheless). 
 

For example. years back when I bought a 64 P bass I tried it up against 6 others (pre CBS). All were good, and totally different. 2 really stood out, but the others were still good. None of them were ‘better’ than any modern bass. 
 

The feel of the bass is whole different thing. I’ve always felt there’s something so special about the wood used in the very early 60s, even student model Musicmaster and a Duo Sonic guitars I had from 1960 and 1961 were outstanding in feel and fullness of tone. The stack knobs and other Ps I’ve played were great too. That doesn’t mean I’m right about that particular period, just that I worked in the vintage trade for a good while and that was my experience. 
 

And yeah, it’s a crime not to play them. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Chiliwailer

[chris_b]

A slab board and Brazilian rosewood might be interesting. They are supposed to have a better tone.

 

Isn't the neck slot usually unpainted? 

Edited November 29, 2021 by chris_b

[Chiliwailer]

10 minutes ago, chris_b said:

 

Isn't the neck slot usually unpainted? 

That’s ok - different spraying method. 

[Boodang]

It's interesting because back when this bass was made, Fender were mass producing down to the cheapest price.

I remember reading an interview with Leo about the early production days and they asked him what made his pickups sound special and, to para-phase, he said he didn't know as they were using whatever was around and cheap with no consistency in materials especially the wire used in the pups. I guess that's why there's such a variance from model to model.

Today's manufacturing techniques and the use of things like Plek machines must surely be able to produce a far superior bass.

[Chiliwailer]

8 hours ago, Boodang said:

It's interesting because back when this bass was made, Fender were mass producing down to the cheapest price.

I remember reading an interview with Leo about the early production days and they asked him what made his pickups sound special and, to para-phase, he said he didn't know as they were using whatever was around and cheap with no consistency in materials especially the wire used in the pups. I guess that's why there's such a variance from model to model.

Today's manufacturing techniques and the use of things like Plek machines must surely be able to produce a far superior bass.

Not necessarily - cheap old stuff back the was still actually pretty good compared to now. Many custom manufacturers still use the old materials used by Fender. The fact the  pickups were hand wound is one large reason for tone differences I.e. under/overwound, the other reason is the nature of wood, as will always be.
 

‘Better’ is subjective imo 👍

Edited November 30, 2021 by Chiliwailer

[Bassfinger]

Leo was so tight he probably squeaked. Rumours were that when they had a new building made that the factory he recovered the lino floor from the old one and used the material to make dot markers.

[Boodang]

6 hours ago, Chiliwailer said:

Not necessarily - cheap old stuff back the was still actually pretty good compared to now. Many custom manufacturers still use the old materials used by Fender. The fact the  pickups were hand wound is one large reason for tone differences I.e. under/overwound, the other reason is the nature of wood, as will always be.
 

‘Better’ is subjective imo 👍

That's the reason for mentioning custom pickups as they're hand wound, scatter wound, and clued up as to materials to use and over/under wiring for different tone capabilities. 

All my basses have custom replacement pups. The best so far was a set I had made for my fretless jazz after reading an article about the pickups Seymour Duncan designed / made for Jaco... scatter wound single coils, alnico2 bridge, alinico5 neck. Interesting the best sound to my ear is both pups full on played over the neck.... good amount of bass from the alnico5 with a nice blend of mids from the alnico2. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Boodang

[StickyDBRmf]

I think I would buy a 60's P or J for about 5 hundred. That's all they are worth. Seriously they weren't that good back then and they ain't that good now.

Doesn't mean I don't wish I had my old basses back. Just it don't mean too much if it sounds good and plays good.

[lonestar]

10 hours ago, Chiliwailer said:

Not necessarily - cheap old stuff back the was still actually pretty good compared to now. Many custom manufacturers still use the old materials used by Fender. The fact the  pickups were hand wound is one large reason for tone differences I.e. under/overwound, the other reason is the nature of wood, as will always be.
 

‘Better’ is subjective imo 👍

I have heard a theory that one of the reasons vintage instruments are so good that given the variations in early manufacturing only the really good ones stayed in circulation, hence the perception that old ones are better; maybe. I guess this is more plausible than Flea’s rationale for switching to vintage Jazz basses: “ they had a long time to forget they were once trees”. Although I kind of like that too.

[Hellzero]

Don't bother with overpriced pickups, simply buy a set of ToneRider, they are as good as any boutique pickup, or even better, and you'll pay the right price.

 

There's no magic about pickups, and it's funny that people can argue about them and consider the wood as absolutely not part of the sound.

 

That said, indeed, only the best examples of old Fender's have made it through the years, the rest were just cheap mass produced instruments that were bad back then, so you can thank time making his work, letting them disappear.

 

And yes, Leo Fender was the king of cheapskates.

 

I've played a lot of awful sounding vintage instruments.

 

It's not because they are old that they are good ... and certainly not better.

 

For the asking price, I would go to a luthier and have 4 basses way better built.

[Happy Jack]

I really, REALLY hope that bass is worth £14,500.

 

I have a 1957 P and a 1965 P so that would mean that I'm RICH!!!

 

Bwahahahahahahahahaha!!!

 

[Diabolical laughter]

[Kevsy71]

I'd consider it at £14,500 if it immediately made me nail every Jamerson line*. But then I'd miss the decades of fun practicing them!

* and if I actually had £14,500 in the first place

 

 

 

 

[Clarky]

15 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

I really, REALLY hope that bass is worth £14,500.

 

I have a 1957 P and a 1965 P so that would mean that I'm RICH!!!

 

Bwahahahahahahahahaha!!!

 

[Diabolical laughter]

I know where you live Jack

 

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!

 

[Even more diabolical laughter]

[Chiliwailer]

48 minutes ago, lonestar said:

I have heard a theory that one of the reasons vintage instruments are so good that given the variations in early manufacturing only the really good ones stayed in circulation, hence the perception that old ones are better; maybe. I guess this is more plausible than Flea’s rationale for switching to vintage Jazz basses: “ they had a long time to forget they were once trees”. Although I kind of like that too.

Great quote

 

That’s quite an interesting theory, I’m not sure what to make of that myself 🤔 Would they have been strayed from circulation in mass?  Years in guitar shops taught me that people can pick up ‘dogs’ and think they are great - it’s  all subjective I suppose, or just they have a lack of experience to compare it to? Don’t know to be honest. 
 

I’ve played a fair few pre CBS ‘dogs’ too. Could be the wood, or as the great Clive Brown once suggested, could be the neck and body don’t resonate in the same direction! But I bet you some folks will pick it up love that ‘pre CBS mojo’. 

[Woodinblack]

11 hours ago, Chiliwailer said:

Not necessarily - cheap old stuff back the was still actually pretty good compared to now.

 

Cheap old stuff was terrible then compared to now.

 

11 hours ago, Chiliwailer said:

The fact the  pickups were hand wound is one large reason for tone differences I.e. under/overwound, the other reason is the nature of wood, as will always be.

 

Indeed. I am always of the opinion that old instruments were very variable, but it seems they were better because the ones that weren't got smashed up or didn't survive, but the ones that were really good were hung onto.

 

I have to say that one of the worst jazz basses I ever played was a 64 - basically firewood but I also played a 65 I would have bought had it not been silly money.

[Chiliwailer]

3 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Cheap old stuff was terrible then compared to now.

 

It was for many budget guitar makes/models  - but not so for Fender parts IMO, e.g. pickups, which is what I was getting at. 

[lonestar]

6 minutes ago, Chiliwailer said:

Great quote

 

That’s quite an interesting theory, I’m not sure what to make of that myself 🤔 Would they have been strayed from circulation in mass?  Years in guitar shops taught me that people can pick up ‘dogs’ and think they are great - it’s  all subjective I suppose, or just they have a lack of experience to compare it to? Don’t know to be honest. 
 

I’ve played a fair few pre CBS ‘dogs’ too. Could be the wood, or as the great Clive Brown once suggested, could be the neck and body don’t resonate in the same direction! But I bet you some folks will pick it up love that ‘pre CBS mojo’. 

I suspect they would have become donors for “cut ‘n shut” basses.

[Chiliwailer]

21 minutes ago, lonestar said:

I suspect they would have become donors for “cut ‘n shut” basses.

Ouch 😂

[Supernaut]

Could you tell the difference between a pre CBS Precision and a 2021 Precision in a blind test? I doubt it. 

[police squad]

My friend and part time band mate blew £20K on a 1954 Les Paul Goldtop. Took it straight to the boozer for his gigs, but sold it in the end as he was worried about it being nicked/damaged etc.

 

I try not to gig with expensive guitars and basses now, that way I really dont worry about them

[Steve Browning]

11 minutes ago, Supernaut said:

Could you tell the difference between a pre CBS Precision and a 2021 Precision in a blind test? I doubt it. 

To be honest, I suspect the amount of wear would give it away but a valid point in other respects. Differences in hardware aside, of course.

[Supernaut]

10 minutes ago, Steve Browning said:

To be honest, I suspect the amount of wear would give it away but a valid point in other respects. Differences in hardware aside, of course.

 

Ears, my friend. 

[bigthumb]

I think the neck profiles will be a fair bit different. The early 60's I've played are nothing like the newer stuff. But as for the tone, well I've never had the chance to A\B test to compare. Wouldn't mind the opportunity to though!

 

As for the bass in question, the E string seems very close to the edge of the fingerboard. Looking at my US '95 theres a lot more space to play with.