Band frictions

[Fozza]

Leaving aside the problem guitarist, it sounds like you wanted different things from the band so it was never really going to work out.

 

You want to be out there gigging as much as possible while they're happy to meet up and muck about for a bit. Never the twain and all that.

 

Best of luck finding a new project.

[Japhet]

1 hour ago, Fozza said:

Leaving aside the problem guitarist, it sounds like you wanted different things from the band so it was never really going to work out.

 

You want to be out there gigging as much as possible while they're happy to meet up and muck about for a bit. Never the twain and all that.

 

Best of luck finding a new project.

 

And the fact that they're happy to meet up once in a while and muck about a bit explains why there is such a lax attitude to getting stuff tight and accurate. In my experience, learning to play stuff is pretty straightforward but learning to play it accurately and tight can be bloody hard work. Seems they can't be bothered.

[Stub Mandrel]

On 08/12/2021 at 08:23, GreeneKing said:

He also plays by feel meaning that his song structures can be loose and inconsistent in some songs

 

One of the bands I'm in I was told 'we don't count bars'.

 

Ironically, this seems to make us tighter.

 

But it all dependswhat you're trying to achieve.

[TimR]

8 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

One of the bands I'm in I was told 'we don't count bars'.

 

Ironically, this seems to make us tighter.

 

But it all dependswhat you're trying to achieve.

I assume there was some kind of eye contact and/or other signalling of the changes. 

 

As unless you're mind readers, if no one knows where you are in the song it's never going to work. Assuming lyrics and more than one chord. 

[Stub Mandrel]

19 minutes ago, TimR said:

I assume there was some kind of eye contact and/or other signalling of the changes. 

 

As unless you're mind readers, if no one knows where you are in the song it's never going to work. Assuming lyrics and more than one chord. 

 

Exactly,  and lots of musical signalling, leading into changes etc. If you want to be loose and improvisational it takes a degree of discipline 😉

[GreeneKing]

There's been some reasonably acrimonious to'ing and fro'ing going on. Finally, at the very last, the lead guitarist has said what it's all about (ffs), that he was exasperated with me because I'm not musically adept enough to cope with his style of playing. His anger and exasperation plainly visible for months, was down to me as I half guessed. 

 

I'm not good at improvising over a chord chart. That's an understatement I learn a song beforehand and when we come together as a band I play pretty much the 'textbook' baseline unless it's too difficult for me when I'll adapt it. If it's not right I'll  listen to advice and sort it. I can spend many hours on a song that gets binned at the first hurdle. That's me and I value advice and work to develop my playing.

 

I tried to talk about the inconsistent song structure, how I felt it needed sorting and that it spoiled my enjoyment of doing a good job. He got angry. At no time did he communicate exactly who with or why. As said above, we could have communicated when to move from chorus to bridge etc.

 

He's finally said exactly why. Because I can't cope l with his style and seamlessly adapt to an extra phrase or two being inserted or deleted from the song structure on a whim (by mistake). He plays by feel and I'm a music technician. I acknowledge that we all make mistakes.

 

I put a lot of work into my playing. I'm not gifted in some ways but I can hold time, play an appropriate bassline and get some feel into the song. i.e. I can fill the role.

 

This is where his 'musical differences' or 'musical incompatibility' comes in. It's a bit of a shock to my esteem but I'm not sure that his expectations are fair or realistic. He's not vastly experienced with bands and gigging.

 

So basically I've been sacked because I'm not good enough. (Or perhaps because he can't communicate at all and he has unrealistic expectations).

 

I don't think he was impressed when I said he played too loud and dominated the band by way of it. It's calling him a musical arseshole evidently.

 

Upwards and onwards then.

 

Peter

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by GreeneKing

[LukeFRC]

FFS I think you're best to be rid of that stress. I've met you, you're a lovely guy, and a decent player. 
Bands, when it's not a full time job, find ways to work around each others limitations - even if you were improvising over a chord chart and expert at it most music has expected numbers of bars, chopping and changing for no reason... is interesting choice.... chopping and changing and not being able or willing to communicate to your bandmates is just crazy. 
And when I say chopping and changing I mean ****ing up. 
Also I know blokes who get angry easy, and blow up and get exasperated with things, thats bad, but also the culture that breeds around them - you know what - life really really is too short . 

[blisters on my fingers]

You got sacked because he isn't good enough.

 

Calling him a musical chocolate arseshole ?  Well who wouldn't ? That is exactly what he is.

Edited December 9, 2021 by blisters on my fingers

[dodge_bass]

36 minutes ago, GreeneKing said:

There's been some reasonably acrimonious to'ing and fro'ing going on. Finally, at the very last, the lead guitarist has said what it's all about (ffs), that he was exasperated with me because I'm not musically adept enough to cope with his style of playing. His anger and exasperation plainly visible for months, was down to me as I half guessed. 

 

I'm not good at improvising over a chord chart. That's an understatement I learn a song beforehand and when we come together as a band I play pretty much the 'textbook' baseline unless it's too difficult for me when I'll adapt it. If it's not right I'll  listen to advice and sort it. I can spend many hours on a song that gets binned at the first hurdle. That's me and I value advice and work to develop my playing.

 

I tried to talk about the inconsistent song structure, how I felt it needed sorting and that it spoiled my enjoyment of doing a good job. He got angry. At no time did he communicate exactly who with or why. As said above, we could have communicated when to move from chorus to bridge etc.

 

He's finally said exactly why. Because I can't cope l with his style and seamlessly adapt to an extra phrase or two being inserted or deleted from the song structure on a whim (by mistake). He plays by feel and I'm a music technician. I acknowledge that we all make mistakes.

 

I put a lot of work into my playing. I'm not gifted in some ways but I can hold time, play an appropriate bassline and get some feel into the song. i.e. I can fill the role.

 

This is where his 'musical differences' or 'musical incompatibility' comes in. It's a bit of a shock to my esteem but I'm not sure that his expectations are fair or realistic. He's not vastly experienced with bands and gigging.

 

So basically I've been sacked because I'm not good enough. (Or perhaps because he can't communicate at all and he has unrealistic expectations).

 

I don't think he was impressed when I said he played too loud and dominated the band by way of it. It's calling him a musical arseshole evidently.

 

Upwards and onwards then.

 

Peter

 

 

 

Nothing to do with your musical adeptness (or incorrect perceived lack thereof) and everything to do with his musical failings. He’s basically musically gaslighting you here and you need to be shot of him entirely. 
 

Learning arrangements, spending time working on parts to get them right (or adjusting slightly to ensure you can deliver them accurately) and wanting structures and arrangements to be fixed on and agreed are all the hallmarks of a pro player. I can vouch for this because I’ve been a pro player for nearly 20years and all of his behaviours are the opposite of what you need to be a pro player. So don’t be thinking you’re at fault here because you’re not. Even top flight players need fixed arrangements and agreements on structure unless they’re at a jam where it doesn’t matter! You can be the best bass player in the world but if you’re playing and suddenly there’s an extra few bars added / removed you’re gonna play a clanger. Working in an ensemble is a group endeavour and one of the agreements is on structure and arrangement….unless the agreement is very specifically the opposite - I.e changes will be clearly cued. 
 

So take heart, continue working hard as you do and find yourself another outfit who are able to function properly as an ensemble. You’ll be an absolute asset to them.  

[Downunderwonder]

55 minutes ago, GreeneKing said:

It's calling him a musical arseshole evidently.

 

That shirt fits and he's wearing it. Onwards and upwards indeed.

[Frank Blank]

4 minutes ago, dodge_bass said:

He’s basically musically gaslighting you here and you need to be shot of him entirely

Absolutely and completely this ^^^

 

His anger is the giveaway, it is an clear indicator that he is, in fact, very far from confident in his own abilities. As much as his behaviour angers me it’s over and you’ll be better off in the long run. Granted, I’d have taken a dump in his lead bag as I left…

 

…but this is actually all positive because he’s clearly delusional and has a complex about his inabilities that manifests in anger rather than communication. Real musicianship is about working together and communicating, eventually he’ll be sitting in his room, playing what he wants, the way he wants, with no one, to no one, until he grows the f*** up.

[Teebs]

If you can't count, and you don't listen to other members of your band / group / orchestra & what they're playing, you are not a musician.

 

 

 

 

You are a singer.

 

True dat.

[Old Horse Murphy]

10 hours ago, GreeneKing said:

There's been some reasonably acrimonious to'ing and fro'ing going on. Finally, at the very last, the lead guitarist has said what it's all about (ffs), that he was exasperated with me because I'm not musically adept enough to cope with his style of playing. His anger and exasperation plainly visible for months, was down to me as I half guessed. 

 

I'm not good at improvising over a chord chart. That's an understatement I learn a song beforehand and when we come together as a band I play pretty much the 'textbook' baseline unless it's too difficult for me when I'll adapt it. If it's not right I'll  listen to advice and sort it. I can spend many hours on a song that gets binned at the first hurdle. That's me and I value advice and work to develop my playing.

 

I tried to talk about the inconsistent song structure, how I felt it needed sorting and that it spoiled my enjoyment of doing a good job. He got angry. At no time did he communicate exactly who with or why. As said above, we could have communicated when to move from chorus to bridge etc.

 

He's finally said exactly why. Because I can't cope l with his style and seamlessly adapt to an extra phrase or two being inserted or deleted from the song structure on a whim (by mistake). He plays by feel and I'm a music technician. I acknowledge that we all make mistakes.

 

I put a lot of work into my playing. I'm not gifted in some ways but I can hold time, play an appropriate bassline and get some feel into the song. i.e. I can fill the role.

 

This is where his 'musical differences' or 'musical incompatibility' comes in. It's a bit of a shock to my esteem but I'm not sure that his expectations are fair or realistic. He's not vastly experienced with bands and gigging.

 

So basically I've been sacked because I'm not good enough. (Or perhaps because he can't communicate at all and he has unrealistic expectations).

 

I don't think he was impressed when I said he played too loud and dominated the band by way of it. It's calling him a musical arseshole evidently.

 

Upwards and onwards then.

 

Peter

 

 

 

Hmmm. I smell bullsh*t, Peter. I couldn't possibly be the guitarist's fault so somebody else has to carry the can. 
 

Most bands I know would give their right arm for a bassist who has the skill set and dedication you display, so I'd suck it up, shake it off and move on. I can 100% guarantee you were not the problem. 

[fretmeister]

50 minutes ago, Teebs said:

If you can't count, and you don't listen to other members of your band / group / orchestra & what they're playing, you are not a musician.

 

 

 

 

You are a singer.

 

True dat.

 

 

I stole this insult but I have used it....

 

Me: Hey Mr Singer, I have an idea - why not do the first verse in B, the 2nd in F, the third in C and the verses in D flat?

 

Singer - How the hell am I supposed to remember that?

 

Me: Just do what you did last time!

 

[cetera]

11 hours ago, GreeneKing said:

There's been some reasonably acrimonious to'ing and fro'ing going on. Finally, at the very last, the lead guitarist has said what it's all about (ffs), that he was exasperated with me because I'm not musically adept enough to cope with his style of playing. His anger and exasperation plainly visible for months, was down to me as I half guessed.  His style being unstructured, wrong, on the fly and basically the result of making mistakes.

 

I'm not good at improvising over a chord chart. That's an understatement I learn a song beforehand and when we come together as a band I play pretty much the 'textbook' baseline unless it's too difficult for me when I'll adapt it. If it's not right I'll  listen to advice and sort it. I can spend many hours on a song that gets binned at the first hurdle. That's me and I value advice and work to develop my playing.

 

I tried to talk about the inconsistent song structure, how I felt it needed sorting and that it spoiled my enjoyment of doing a good job. He got angry. At no time did he communicate exactly who with or why. As said above, we could have communicated when to move from chorus to bridge etc. He got 'angry'. The anger is with himself but targeted at you to deflect from his own failures.

 

He's finally said exactly why. Because I can't cope l with his style and seamlessly adapt to an extra phrase or two being inserted or deleted from the song structure on a whim (by mistake). He plays by feel and I'm a music technician. I acknowledge that we all make mistakes. Sounds like he makes mistakes like I have hot dinners. He needs to work on his technique and ability to count.

 

I put a lot of work into my playing. I'm not gifted in some ways but I can hold time, play an appropriate bassline and get some feel into the song. i.e. I can fill the role.

 

This is where his 'musical differences' or 'musical incompatibility' comes in. It's a bit of a shock to my esteem but I'm not sure that his expectations are fair or realistic. He's not vastly experienced with bands and gigging. Again, you're providing the solid foundation. The 'musical incompatibility' comes from him being unable to count or remember a basic structure. Don't let yourself take the blame for his issues!

 

So basically I've been sacked because I'm not good enough. (Or perhaps because he can't communicate at all and he has unrealistic expectations).

 

I don't think he was impressed when I said he played too loud and dominated the band by way of it. It's calling him a musical arseshole evidently. If the cap fits.....

 

Upwards and onwards then. Exactly. You're being held back from progressing and gigging by a musical incompetent!

 

Peter

[Phil Starr]

Hi Peter, one of your posts struck a chord with me, no pun intended. I also started bass late in life later than you in fact and have suffered from imposter syndrome for most of my playing career. I'm slightly older than you too and am usually the oldest member of the band. I've been luckier though as most of the time I've been gigging regularly.

 

You shouldn't feel as if you were 'sacked' just that you stood up for yourself and tried to make the band better. The guy was simply wrong, successful improvisation takes real structure and discipline other bassists may have worked to cover up his issues but I suspect this is just a narcissist and a bully.

 

Just focus on what you really want, to join a band, be part of a group of people working together and who want to gig together regularly. Value your contribution, they can't do it without a bassist and reliable, organised easy going musicians aren't exactly plentiful. You may have to work hard to find people and you may have to compromise on the music played but there are working bands out there for you. I've played hundreds of gigs now but sometimes you spend a few months in the wilderness. Previously I've been through the desperate, needy join any band that will have me process but actually it gets better when you set your own standards and decide for yourself what you need as a minimum and what you are prepared to compromise on.

 

I've just spent four years with a band of lovely people, not the best band in the world but people I've been glad to spend time with who have spread that togetherness to audiences so that we have never had trouble getting re-booked. Sadly our singer has called it a day and I'll once again be looking for a new band. I know what I want; no big egos, 20 gigs a year roughly, people who put the audience first and who are fun to be with and musicians who take the music seriously enough to always want to play their best and who have a professional attitude. Everything else I'll compromise on. Every audition I'll be auditioning them as much as they are auditioning me. It's a dating game and I'm not going to settle on something just for the sake of it, someone out there wants me and someone will want you.

 

have faith and look for that gigging band with confidence and energy. Good Luck

[lozkerr]

13 hours ago, GreeneKing said:

I'm not good at improvising over a chord chart. That's an understatement I learn a song beforehand and when we come together as a band I play pretty much the 'textbook' baseline unless it's too difficult for me when I'll adapt it. If it's not right I'll  listen to advice and sort it. I can spend many hours on a song that gets binned at the first hurdle. That's me and I value advice and work to develop my playing.

 

I tried to talk about the inconsistent song structure, how I felt it needed sorting and that it spoiled my enjoyment of doing a good job. He got angry. At no time did he communicate exactly who with or why. As said above, we could have communicated when to move from chorus to bridge etc.

 

He's finally said exactly why. Because I can't cope l with his style and seamlessly adapt to an extra phrase or two being inserted or deleted from the song structure on a whim (by mistake). He plays by feel and I'm a music technician. I acknowledge that we all make mistakes.

Well, he certainly sounds like someone who's feeling himself.  

 

It is possible to play by feel - I've done it in marching bands as a side drummer when marking the beat and as a trad jazz trumpeter a long time back. But playing by feel doesn't mean you expect the others to read your mind and throw toys out the pram when they don't - you lock in with the beat, count on autopilot and if you're taking a improvised solo, you know exactly when to cue the rest of the band back in. Our normal MO was to turn towards the next player for one-two-three-four while making eye contact so they'd hear the solo getting louder and have enough time to take over. It came together after a lot of practice. And crucially, you need enough humility to recognise when you've f**ked up and work on what needs to addressed.

 

Your approach to learning songs is absolutely fine. That's exactly what we all do in both the bands I'm in - agree the version to learn, put it on a Spotify playlist and work on our parts. If either singer is struggling with the key, we change it. If anyone has some changes they'd like to try, we run through them at rehearsal and decide yes/no.

 

Seriously, do not blame yourself for Ego Guitard's attitude. This guy is an insecure arrogant cretin who has no idea how to play ensemble. You shouldn't have to cope with his impromptu adaptations, just as he shouldn't be adding them unless he can count bars properly and agree cues with the rest of the band. From what you've said on here I think you've shown commendable patience in dealing with this fool.  Walk away and find better people to play with. At the very least, you've learnt to spot warning signs!

 

Onwards and upwards.

[uk_lefty]

14 hours ago, GreeneKing said:

put a lot of work into my playing. I'm not gifted in some ways but I can hold time, play an appropriate bassline and get some feel into the song. i.e. I can fill the role.

I think that paragraph there sums up the skillset and attitude 99% of bands want from a bassist but not many always get. Use that when you enquire with other bands and you'll be top of their list of people to audition: hard working, aware of own limitations, knows his role. Sounds like the ideal bandmate to me.

[jonnybass]

Peter, dont be disheartened, as others have said hes covering up for his shortcomings.  I've been lucky, I've played in bands for around 30 years since i was 16.  Unless he told you before he started the song, that hes changing the structure then its on him.  The only exception would be tio shout or signal that hes adding /removing while playing. Even then its not really your fault if it goes wrong.  

 

I joined a jazz band a few years ago, I had never played jazz at that point.  Pianist shouts out at the rehersal, ok guys, 6251 in F, Cal (the drummer) we will trade 8's after the solo, 32 bars then back in to the head.  I sounded like a bass falling down the stairs.  We stopped.  The pianist then explained to me (and played examples) of each of the bits he mentioned.  EVery week he'd spend at least 30 mins giving me a jazz music lesson and a listening list.  Fast forward a year we are playing 2 hour gigs just calling out tunes from the real book, improving structure (with signals).  I cant think highly enough of that pianist.  He recognised my weaknesses and helped me fix them, to make a nice little jazz trio.

 

If your guitarist was as good as he thought he was he would have done the same.  He didnt, hes covering up.  I havent heard you play, but you approach songs in the same way I do, and was taught to do at music college, so you are more competent than a few musicians I've encountered.  I know who i'd rather play in a band with, and it isnt the guitarist.

 

Good luck with the next venture man.

 

Jonny  

 

 

[Count Bassie]

1 hour ago, jonnybass said:

Peter, dont be disheartened, as others have said hes covering up for his shortcomings.  I've been lucky, I've played in bands for around 30 years since i was 16.  Unless he told you before he started the song, that hes changing the structure then its on him.  The only exception would be tio shout or signal that hes adding /removing while playing. Even then its not really your fault if it goes wrong.  

 

I joined a jazz band a few years ago, I had never played jazz at that point.  Pianist shouts out at the rehersal, ok guys, 6251 in F, Cal (the drummer) we will trade 8's after the solo, 32 bars then back in to the head.  I sounded like a bass falling down the stairs.  We stopped.  The pianist then explained to me (and played examples) of each of the bits he mentioned.  EVery week he'd spend at least 30 mins giving me a jazz music lesson and a listening list.  Fast forward a year we are playing 2 hour gigs just calling out tunes from the real book, improving structure (with signals).  I cant think highly enough of that pianist.  He recognised my weaknesses and helped me fix them, to make a nice little jazz trio.

 

If your guitarist was as good as he thought he was he would have done the same.  He didnt, hes covering up.  I havent heard you play, but you approach songs in the same way I do, and was taught to do at music college, so you are more competent than a few musicians I've encountered.  I know who i'd rather play in a band with, and it isnt the guitarist.

 

Good luck with the next venture man.

 

Jonny  

 

 

Good story bro! That's the way to do it, and he obviously heard that your playing was good (ears, chops, feel, etc), and helped you bring it into the context. 

That's what musicians do- on both sides of that story.

Way to be.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Count Bassie
Bad writing!

[fleabag]

Keep a sneaky eye and ear on the band Pete.  I'm fascinated  by what the next bass  player  ( if indeed there will be one )  is going to make of   mr  ' Im - so - inadequate - i - cover - it - up - by - shouting - and - blaming - the - bassist - who - can - actually - count - and  - keep - time '

 

 

Phew. Bit long winded. Soz

[Frank Blank]

13 minutes ago, fleabag said:

Phew. Bit long winded. Soz

Yeah, and you came in at the wrong place!

[Dan Dare]

21 hours ago, GreeneKing said:

He's finally said exactly why. Because I can't cope l with his style and seamlessly adapt to an extra phrase or two being inserted or deleted from the song structure on a whim (by mistake). He plays by feel and I'm a music technician.

 

I hope you laughed in his face at that little gem. Translated, it reads "You can't read my mind and follow me when I make mistakes. I'm a musically illiterate chancer and you show me up by knowing what you're doing".

 

[fleabag]

4 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

Yeah, and you came in at the wrong place!

 

Shouting eh ?   You know what that means.   Are you really a guitarist  ?

Edited December 10, 2021 by fleabag

[tauzero]

If he's been playing by feel and it doesn't lead him to start and stop doing things in the right place, his feel is wrong. Changing song structure by repeating verses or choruses, or occasionally varying the number of well-defined phrases (eg. "Bad moon rising" - number of "there's a bad moon on the rise") is one thing, completely screwing up the length of a defined part of the structure is another.