Band frictions

[GreeneKing]

3 minutes ago, Skinnyman said:

Tricky.

 

I think I'd have gone by now, The volume thing would be enough for me.

 

This shouldn't be about just you and the guitarist.

 

Have you talked to the drummer and Rhythm guitarist about this?

 

If they're of the same mind as you, why don't you all walk?

 

Assuming that they've got the same issue, you could all agree that you three will play the song as per the original structure (plus any variations that you've agreed in advance). Then - collectively - tell the guitarist that if he wants to deviate from this "in the moment", he needs to give you all a visual cue of some sort or you will all carry on following the agreed structure and he will sound like a complete idiot. 

 

Then implement and stick to this policy religiously until either he "gets it" or you all walk.

 

Of course, if they don't see a problem then maybe you need to find a band with a better standard of musicians. There is a difference between being able to play an instrument and being able to make music in a band with other people and it seems that you're the only one seeing that distinction.

 

Good luck with it

 

PS Unless you're certain that the gig won't be a car crash, I'd be gone well before it

 

My previous post may give a hint about band dynamics. I'm the incomer. 

 

The gig is driven by me. My local I.A.M. Motorcycle Group has it's annual dinner and I was asked if we'd play. Otherwise we would probably have carried on as a perennial practice band. I was also hoping that it would lead to more gigs. Instead we're in danger of coming apart at the seams!

[Downunderwonder]

2 minutes ago, GreeneKing said:

My previous post may give a hint about band dynamics. I'm the incomer. 

 

The gig is driven by me. My local I.A.M. Motorcycle Group has it's annual dinner and I was asked if we'd play. Otherwise we would probably have carried on as a perennial practice band. I was also hoping that it would lead to more gigs. Instead we're in danger of coming apart at the seams!

Hell's bells. As the gig finder you have the power. Exercise it to the max. Demand the issues are resolved immediately or you are going to cancel to give the client time to find another band that has its kaka together.

[Skinnyman]

1 minute ago, GreeneKing said:

My previous post may give a hint about band dynamics. I'm the incomer. 

 

The gig is driven by me. My local I.A.M. Motorcycle Group has it's annual dinner and I was asked if we'd play. Otherwise we would probably have carried on as a perennial practice band. I was also hoping that it would lead to more gigs. Instead we're in danger of coming apart at the seams!

 

Ooh. Tricky.

 

I grew up in Kendal (a couple of school years behind  you if you grew up there too) and I know what you mean about the limited options. There used to be a pretty strong folk scene so rather than going back to the Bass Shed, maybe there's scope to find something outside the pub circuit?  Or outside Kendal? There's a very strong musical theatre group in Burneside who may welcome a bass player to sit in the pit?

 

Whatever happens,  it sounds like you're saddled with the gig so I guess you need to try and make it works best you can.

 

I'd still have a (quiet) word with the drummer - ask him how he copes with the guitarist going off piste and  can he give you any tips? Ditto the rhythm guy - he must have similar issues so how does he deal with them?

 

If you can lock  in with the drummer and follow him, you might be able to learn  to work round the guitarist's wilder flights of fancy.

 

 

[Thunderbird]

If I was in your position I would be looking for another band as it never ends well when relations are in the band as they stick together on votes etc etc etc it never works fairly as you and the drummer will always be outvoted with various band issues and in turn this will turn toxic and make you unhappy 

I'm hope I'm wrong but sadly I've seen said scenario too many times 

[fretmeister]

25 minutes ago, GreeneKing said:

My previous post may give a hint about band dynamics. I'm the incomer. 

 

The gig is driven by me. My local I.A.M. Motorcycle Group has it's annual dinner and I was asked if we'd play. Otherwise we would probably have carried on as a perennial practice band. I was also hoping that it would lead to more gigs. Instead we're in danger of coming apart at the seams!

 

As per other posts - you have to tell them you'll cancel the gig if he doesn't learn to count.

 

Don't tell them obviously - just add another couple of weeks between the last rehearsal and the next one and tell him to adapt.

 

He sounds like a right eijit. Even well know jazz armhole band leaders wouldn't take a 14 bar solo just because of the "feel!"

 

[peteb]

46 minutes ago, GreeneKing said:

The the lead, drummer and rhythm have been in a band and gigged before. Rhythm only really wants to turn up once a month to play with other folk, stuff he likes and doesn't have to do any work on. He's not keen on gigging. The drummer (who is in other gigging bands) is tight with the lead and from the looks exchanged between them there's stuff being said that I'm not a party to. My options around here in terms of opportunity are limited. I don't want to go back to the bass 'shed', the last time that happened I gave up for a couple of years.

 

 

I think you can see what’s going on here, especially the looks between the drummer and guitar player! The others have all played together and are pretty much on the same page. They also seem to accept the guitar player as the band leader. Therefore, in the context of this band, the issue is you!

 

If you are going to play in bands, you have to accept that most good musicians (and a lot who are not very good) have egos to some extent. So, you have to learn to deal with it. You can come on Basschat to moan about things and you will always get the same sympathetic response telling you to either leave or to confront the band leader in such a way that you will get fired. But if you want to play in bands then you have to learn how to deal with things like this.

 

I would reckon a way forward is at the next rehearsal you suggest that you think the band needs cues from the guitarist, either visual or he plays an agreed phase to signal that the solo is coming to an end. You can point out that this is how pro bands generally do things. This will at least make the guitarist think when he is going off-script, make it easier for you and hopefully make any car crashes onstage less likely.

 

[Woodinblack]

If you are the one that gets the gig, I would say, do this gig as it is reasonably soon, then if it doesn't go well, or you have more tantrums, get on bandmix or join my band or something, wade through the hassle there and get a band together. There is no point if you want to gig being in a band with people who don't want to gig, there will always be a reason.

My current band I joined 6 years ago, and we had our first gig a week after I joined. It was a hectic week. The guitarist left at the last gig on saturday and we have new guitarists getting ready.

My other band we started 3 years ago, in that time it changed lineup so I was the only pre-existing member in it, we had done two gigs, and had a load of drama. Some bands you have to know are not going to be doing anything, if I had the sense I would realise that that band was never going to work.

 

There are worse bands to be in than no band, as at least in no band you have a hope of joining one!

[GreeneKing]

24 minutes ago, peteb said:

 

I think you can see what’s going on here, especially the looks between the drummer and guitar player! The others have all played together and are pretty much on the same page. They also seem to accept the guitar player as the band leader. Therefore, in the context of this band, the issue is you!

 

If you are going to play in bands, you have to accept that most good musicians (and a lot who are not very good) have egos to some extent. So, you have to learn to deal with it. You can come on Basschat to moan about things and you will always get the same sympathetic response telling you to either leave or to confront the band leader in such a way that you will get fired. But if you want to play in bands then you have to learn how to deal with things like this.

 

I would reckon a way forward is at the next rehearsal you suggest that you think the band needs cues from the guitarist, either visual or he plays an agreed phase to signal that the solo is coming to an end. You can point out that this is how pro bands generally do things. This will at least make the guitarist think when he is going off-script, make it easier for you and hopefully make any car crashes onstage less likely.

 

I think this is a very accurate picture. I’m seen as the problem here at least by the lead and possibly the drummer. The singer is fairly even handed around it all despite it being his brother. Don’t get me wrong, the lead can be a pleasant fella and is most of the time. It is however, if only in feel, his band. I’ve been happy to run with that. Hopefully we can find a way ahead. I suppose what I really struggle with is being made to look an eejit because of his off piste playing. 

[peteb]

11 minutes ago, GreeneKing said:

I think this is a very accurate picture. I’m seen as the problem here at least by the lead and possibly the drummer. The singer is fairly even handed around it all despite it being his brother. Don’t get me wrong, the lead can be a pleasant fella and is most of the time. It is however, if only in feel, his band. I’ve been happy to run with that. Hopefully we can find a way ahead. I suppose what I really struggle with is being made to look an eejit because of his off piste playing. 

 

So, the real issue is that you need to chat with the guitar player and work out how you are going to cue things like extended solos. 

 

There is no point in running away from a band every time you have a minor issue, or you will never get anywhere. Better to sort out a way of dealing with those issues. 

 

[Steve Browning]

1 hour ago, Downunderwonder said:

Hell's bells. As the gig finder you have the power. Exercise it to the max. Demand the issues are resolved immediately or you are going to cancel to give the client time to find another band that has its kaka together.

 

This. This means your reputation is on the line and you don't want that trashed. If you're not completely comfortable that the band can deliver, then pull the plug.

[deepbass5]

Great comments here, Skinnyman summed it up for me.

I have had similar issues in the past, but one thing we always did as a band was agree on what version of the song we were learning. The Single as played by the BBC 🙂 ? album version. or maybe specific Radio edit?

Hopefully everyone had done their homework come rehearsal day, but my Mrs (singer ) would always have a tape or CD player there to iron out any points that individuals had forgot. That way there is no arguement.

To back that up I would get drummer to agree to stick to the record. Mistakes happen, Vocalist may drop a verse etc or guitar may forget the bridge ? Then as a one off thats where everyones musicianship steps in. The ability to use your ears and know where to jump. This is so the audience don't even know something has happened.  Lastly Volume, my pet hate. Agree that it is too loud in the rehearsal room and you can't continue like this. and at gigs look at the venue and comment to each other that we'll need to keep it down in here due to people eating and wanting to talking. We would have a quiet set 1 and then a louder bopping 2nd -3rd as required. We would also supply recorded dinner music so we did not always have to play while people were eating and socialising at the start of the evening.

[toneknob]

Next time he criticises your playing, tell him you're playing by feel.

 

[Rich]

Feel, my árse (that's a statement, not a request  )
I've got to that don't-suffer-fools, "life is too short to..." age. In this case, life is far too short to tread lightly around people with anger issues, especially if that anger stems from having their inability to show the most basic musical competence pointed out to them. PiIIocks like him just make me cross. If he can't or won't calm the feck down, stop blethering about 'feel', get his head round sticking to a song structure and stop hamstringing the band, the only logical course is either to bin him or, if the band won't show him the door, walk. 

[cetera]

The trouble with tolerating people like this is, in the long run, it'll come back to bite you in the derrière. They don't change when they're that set in their ways. It'll grind you down or come to a head and then you'll wish you hadn't put up with it so long as you've wasted time and missed out on other potential opportunities.

 

Tolerating is enabling....

[Jakester]

40 minutes ago, peteb said:

 

So, the real issue is that you need to chat with the guitar player and work out how you are going to cue things like extended solos. 

 

There is no point in running away from a band every time you have a minor issue, or you will never get anywhere. Better to sort out a way of dealing with those issues. 

 

But how do you deal with someone adding the odd bar or two in the middle of a song? 

 

I've played lots of jazz over the years and it's absolutely improvised, but improvised within the structure of the song eg. solos will be one, two, three etc times through the solo section. I've played in bands where the BL wanted to vamp a couple of bars - fine, but it was a part of the tunes that a vamp would work. 

 

I'm used to playing off the BL, soloist, lead guitarist, singer - whoever - for cues and even totally on spec stops, breakdowns, solos, time changes etc - but never, and I mean ever, have I come across someone who just wants to add "a couple of extra bars" in. 

 

If it's not just "a couple of extra bars" - and it's twice through the solo rather than once, for example, then that's easy and will just require agreement as to how to signal it. If it is genuinely playing a (say) 12-bar section with two extra bars because he feels like it, then the lead player needs shooting. 

[Woodinblack]

11 minutes ago, Rich said:

Feel, my árse (that's a statement, not a request  )

 

😮

 

11 minutes ago, Rich said:

I've got to that don't-suffer-fools, "life is too short to..." age. In this case, life is far too short to tread lightly around people with anger issues, especially if that anger stems from having their inability to show the most basic musical competence pointed out to them.

 

I can cope ok with a lack of musical ability, but I really have problems coping with people who can't control their emotions.  I know people have issues, but that is not what I am in a band for.

[chris_b]

If you decide to leave, before you go, confront this guy over his bad attitude, his lack of team work, his lackadaisical attitude to arrangements and his disrespect for the rest of the band. Tell him what his problem is, tell him to grow up and stop being a selfish, pathetic bully. Give him both barrels. Don't give up the high ground and do it in front of the whole band. You never know, they might agree with you.

[Japhet]

Anybody from our fraternity who hasn't acquired this particular badge or T shirt is extremely lucky. I think that amongst lesser musicians, bass players are generally regarded as the last in the queue when it comes to input or opinions. As such, anything you say tends to be taken lightly, or not taken at all. I've found that throughout my gigging experience (which is quite extensive), that any periods of time that you're not battling some sort of issue or agenda will be fleeting but blissful. I've had occasion at rehearsals to turn my gear off completely because the volume is extreme, and whilst I could easily drown everybody else out it is completely pointless. The one occasion when I did do that though was quite memorable. I've concluded that guitarists and singers are mostly fragile divas with grossly inflated opinions of their own abilities and taste. It's a cross we have to bear, sadly.

[peteb]

18 minutes ago, Jakester said:

But how do you deal with someone adding the odd bar or two in the middle of a song? 

 

I've played lots of jazz over the years and it's absolutely improvised, but improvised within the structure of the song eg. solos will be one, two, three etc times through the solo section. I've played in bands where the BL wanted to vamp a couple of bars - fine, but it was a part of the tunes that a vamp would work. 

 

I'm used to playing off the BL, soloist, lead guitarist, singer - whoever - for cues and even totally on spec stops, breakdowns, solos, time changes etc - but never, and I mean ever, have I come across someone who just wants to add "a couple of extra bars" in. 

 

If it's not just "a couple of extra bars" - and it's twice through the solo rather than once, for example, then that's easy and will just require agreement as to how to signal it. If it is genuinely playing a (say) 12-bar section with two extra bars because he feels like it, then the lead player needs shooting. 

 

But is that what he is doing? The drummer, who seems to gig a bit seems OK with the guitarist's approach, so presumably he can follow and I'm guessing that 'a couple of bars' is actually 4 or 8 bars. If not, there is not much you can do and he's just a cr*p guitarist, but if the others can follow what's he doing then presumably that isn't the case. If nothing else, getting him to start giving cues will make him think more about what he is playing and not get too random. 

 

I've played a lot of blues gigs, where when you start a song you have no idea if it will last for three minutes or twenty minutes. But the main band leader / guitarist I am thinking of here was very definite in his cues (and could also read the room, so he wouldn't go too long if he was losing the audience), so there was never any car crashes. 

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by peteb

[Count Bassie]

A little personal discipline goes a long way; a lack of it can ruin anything. If pointing out a timing issue makes him into a little monster, i see no reason to try and bring him up, that was someone else's job.

Jazz... Lol...

Like so many have said, why not point your enthusiasm to some new energy? Get into something that works and is fun to be a part of!

Edited November 30, 2021 by Count Bassie

[Rich]

1 hour ago, peteb said:

There is no point in running away from a band every time you have a minor issue, or you will never get anywhere. Better to sort out a way of dealing with those issues. 

 

I would venture that a bandmate who loses his temper, to the extent that he has to be taken outside to calm down, is NOT a minor issue. I'm happy to 'deal with' many things, but that? Nah. 

[Count Bassie]

5 minutes ago, chris_b said:

If you decide to leave, before you go, confront this guy over his bad attitude, his lack of team work, his lackadaisical attitude to arrangements and his disrespect for the rest of the band. Tell him what his problem is, tell him to grow up and stop being a selfish, pathetic bully. Give him both barrels. Don't give up the high ground and do it in front of the whole band. You never know, they might agree with you.

It's a noble idea, but at this point in my own experience I see this as mostly a waste of time and energy. It seems like this could (but I don't really know of course) easily become an escalation without dividend. I'd keep it simple, to the point, and be true to myself. Don't sweat what this kid thinks. Get you some sanity.

[fleabag]

@GreeneKing

 

Pete,  you like sex and travel,  doncha ?

 

You know the answer.  Life's too short

[peteb]

14 minutes ago, Rich said:

I would venture that a bandmate who loses his temper, to the extent that he has to be taken outside to calm down, is NOT a minor issue. I'm happy to 'deal with' many things, but that? Nah. 

 

I wasn't in the room so I don't know exactly what happened. But then again, I've been in rehearsal rooms where far worse than that has happened and everyone managed to stay friends afterwards. 

 

Peter has said that he generally gets on with the guitar player apart from this issue, so just sort out this issue. 

 

[Bridgehouse]

I joined a band who were having a real torrid time with their "lead" guitarist. 

 

Too loud, too centred on his "solos" and too concerned by how he sounded and really didn't care about anyone else or their enjoyment of the situation. One rehearsal the conversation was had. He was told in no uncertain terms that he was just too loud. 

 

Sadly he wouldn't have any of it, so we decided to take more drastic action. It went something along the lines of:

 

[End of song being rehearsed. Guitarist still about 15395db too loud]

Guitarist: Right, I'm off out for a tab

[Door closes]

Everyone else: Go!

[Fuse extracted from amp plug and from pedalboard power supply amp and replaced with pre-determined duds]

[Guitarist returns]

Guitarist: Er... I have no power. What's going on?

Lead Singer: Dunno mate, my amp is fine and the PA is on...?

Me: Bass amp on over here mate..

[Guitarist swaps plug sockets, extension lead etc..]

Guitarist: WTAF??

Keys Player: I reckon you've blown that amp mate - told you it was too loud..

Guitarist: Blown it? Really?

Lead Singer: Yeah. I did hear a popping noise when you were out.

Me: And a bit of a crackle...

Guitarist: Oh poop. This is my dad's amp as well.. 

[Guitarist packs up in a hurry and leaves]

 

We didn't see him again.....

Edited November 30, 2021 by Bridgehouse