Filling out the sound with no rhythm guitar

[Boodang]

2 hours ago, fretmeister said:

My view is embrace the space and alter the arrangement until it works. No pedals / tone changes will help if the arrangement is wrong for the instruments you have to work with.

 

Of course it's not really an either/or situation... some songs you can embrace the space, others might be fun to play around with pedals.... you could do 'walking on the moon' through an envelope filter with an octaver, some distortion and lots of echo!!

[KevB]

In my 3 piece I've used the Fishman pedal (that happy Jack gave a link to) with some success but you have to be a bit careful not to get too busy as it sometimes doesn't track all that well . For completely non-guitar sounds to accompany some songs I've been using the McMillen 12Step which has received some complimentary feedback from punters and the other band members appreciate the difference it makes. However this probably goes beyond what most would consider a 'pedal' in the usual sense and there are other threads devoted to midi pedals already.

[MacDaddy]

Nobody ever said Van Halen, or Black Sabbath, need another guitarist.

Have a listen to what they were doing as a bass/drums/guitar combo.

[SteveXFR]

Just now, MacDaddy said:

Nobody ever said Van Halen, or Black Sabbath, need another guitarist.

Have a listen to what they were doing as a bass/drums/guitar combo.

 

They didn't cover songs which were written for two guitarists though

Sabbath tuned low, had really dirty guitar and bass tunes and summoned the devil to create a wall of sound.

[Al Krow]

On 02/12/2021 at 12:59, Doddy said:

As a massive pedal user, don't look at pedals as a way to fill gaps.

A couple of people have already mentioned tone, and this is where you need to start. You want a good sound that is full and clear, and fills out the low end without sounding muddy and undefined.

Next, look at how you approach playing under the solo. I find that it can often sound better to play a solid, simpler part that sounds full, than to try and be busy. Of course, you can go full Jack Bruce if you want but you need to be comfortable with the harmony and with reacting to the soloist, otherwise it becomes busy for the sake of bring busy.

One thing that is often over looked is what register you are playing in. If the guitar goes up the octave for his solo and you stay down in the lower positions, there can be a gap of 2 or 3 octaves between the two of you and it sounds empty in the midrange. In these cases it can sound better if you play more around the middle of neck, especially when you have a good tone.

 

 

Read the thread from start to finish and some excellent posts, thanks guys!

 

Picking up on 2 to 3 octave gap point. Thinking that would be an ideal time to kick in a pedal that can add an octave and possibly also a 5th above for some of the songs to fill out the space?

 

Maybe an interesting one to create a patch on a decent multifx or check out some dedicated pedals that can do this well, if folk have recommendations for low glitch / low latency / tight tracking options?

 

And I guess, there's always the option to add "power" chords (root, 5th, octave) ourselves without a pedal.

Edited Saturday at 10:09 by Al Krow

[diskwave]

As above, its no use fighting it and trying to manicly fill every gap....Let the spaces ring out and you'll find the presentation will actually sound more full and satisfying. Check out Robin Trower the master of space and air.

[Al Krow]

On 10/12/2021 at 17:08, SteveXFR said:

Sabbath tuned low, had really dirty guitar and bass tunes and summoned the devil to create a wall of sound.

 

The devil or refrigerator cabs? Are the terms interchangeable?

[spencer.b]

It's sounds counterintuitive but sometimes playing higher can blend a bit better , I've noticed that alot of 60/70s bass players would play higher than people do now , don't know if rubbish amps had a part in it but sometimes the bass being closer in pitch to the guitar can thicken it up a bit , Noel Redding , Andy Fraser , Entwistle etc , if there is a riff in G for instance try it at fret 10 on the A string

[Al Krow]

Coming to think about it, a really good example of when a song can sound really thin when the guitarist switches from rhythm to solo with a three piece instrument outfit (guitar, bass and drums) is Eagles - Hotel California. Obviously the Eagles had a BIG line up in terms of guitars. How fill the gap on the iconic guitar solo at the end?

[SteveXFR]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

 

The devil or refrigerator cabs? Are the terms interchangeable?

 

Obviously the devil lived in Geezer's cabs

[chris_b]

Guys, stop racking your brains for ways to thicken up your sound in a solo. If the bass sounds thin in a solo then it'll sound thin for the rest of the song, and that's bad. Get a tone that works for the whole song, from the intro to the coda.

 

If you think you have to fill in all the "holes" you're thinking is wrong. When a solo starts you stay locked with the drummer. Whatever the lead instruments are doing is irrelevant to you, and if they are having sound problems it's not your job to fill in. You can't anyway, you're on the wrong instrument.

 

A good solo is about dynamics so many guitarists will drop out for a bar or two at the start. The solo will then build. If the bass or drums start filling in the gaps there are no dynamics and the whole section is a mess. If your bass line is good for the verse  then it's good for the solo.

[Al Krow]

10 minutes ago, chris_b said:

Guys, stop racking your brains for ways to thicken up your sound in a solo. If the bass sounds thin in a solo then it'll sound thin for the rest of the song, and that's bad. Get a tone that works for the whole song, from the intro to the coda.

 

If you think you have to fill in all the "holes" you're thinking is wrong. When a solo starts you stay locked with the drummer. Whatever the lead instruments are doing is irrelevant to you, and if they are having sound problems it's not your job to fill in. You can't anyway, you're on the wrong instrument.

 

A good solo is about dynamics so many guitarists will drop out for a bar or two at the start. The solo will then build. If the bass or drums start filling in the gaps there are no dynamics and the whole section is a mess. If your bass line is good for the verse  then it's good for the solo.

 

Nah, disagree Chris. You can sound decently full as a line up during the verse/chorus quite easily. On the Hotel California example, which I think is a good one, you have rhythm guitar filling the sonic space plus vox in the verse/chorus. 

 

On the solo the only thing you have underneath the guitar with a three instrument set up is the bass, as the vox also drops out. The Eagles had two rhythm guitars filling the space during the solo. If you don't change things up, it's going to sound thin?

 

Edited Saturday at 13:13 by Al Krow

[peteb]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

 

Nah, disagree Chris. You can sound decently full as a line up during the verse/chorus quite easily. On the Hotel California example, which I think is a good one, you have rhythm guitar filling the sonic space plus vox in the verse/chorus. 

 

On the solo the only thing you have underneath the guitar with a three instrument set up is the bass, as the vox also drops out. The Eagles had two rhythm guitars filling the space during the solo. If you don't change things up, it's going to sound thin?

 

 

No, @chris_b is right. I've mainly played in rock bands with just one guitar over the years and you just develop a feel over the years on how to fill things out. First of all you need the right tone and attack, but being in a three piece can give you the opportunity to play a bit busier at times (particularly under solos), to work on your note lengths, you might throw in a few octaves or sometimes you just embrace the spaces in the music (someone mentioned Robin Trower above, which is a pretty good example). However, you are never going sound the same as if you have a rhythm guitar or Hammond or whatever playing, but a three piece can still sound great! 

 

I'm playing in a pretty busy Zep tribute these days and I certainly don't use any effects or change my EQ every time there is a guitar solo! You just find a way to make it work. 

 

Edited Saturday at 14:32 by peteb

[Lozz196]

A lot of it is what the bass & drums were arranged/written to do in the solo. In my classic rock band we do Led Zeps Dazed & Confused, like them we don’t have a rhythm guitar but there’s no drop when the solo kicks in due to the arrangement and composition, if anything the song goes up (shows how clever they really were imo).
 

In songs which were written to have 1 or 2 rhythm guitars as well as the solo then just lead and bass will be a drop, no getting around that. 

[Al Krow]

For sure agree with many of the examples you've given @peteb, and Led Zepp were the ultimate power trio of instruments plus vox!

 

But, as others have rightly said earlier in the thread, the point here is with bands and tunes where they themselves had more than one guitarist or a keys player and filled out the sound during guitar solos and didn't leave it to the bassplayer doing what he or she was previously doing. In those circumstances, I think we can potentially tastefully add something 'more', or at least give it some thought rather than dismiss the point as being always wrong?

 

Edited Saturday at 14:57 by Al Krow

[SteveXFR]

Rex Brown from Pantera is really good at filling the space behind he quite often plays a simple riff but with lots of additional fills to keep it busy. It's almost like a solo behind a solo. Floods is a good example of this

[Al Krow]

Just now, SteveXFR said:

Rex Brown from Pantera is really good at filling the space behind he quite often plays a simple riff but with lots of additional fills to keep it busy. It's almost like a solo behind a solo. Floods is a good example of this

 

Thanks - will check that track out!

[peteb]

20 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

For sure agree with many of the examples you've given @peteb, and Led Zepp were the ultimate power trio!

 

But, as others have rightly said earlier in the thread, the point here is with bands and tunes where they themselves had more than one guitarist or a keys player and filled out the sound during guitar solos and didn't leave it to the bassplayer doing what he or she was previously doing. In those circumstances, I think we can potenttually tastefully add something 'more', or at least give it some thought rather than dismiss the point as being always wrong?

 

When it comes down to it, it is difficult to convincingly recreate rhythm guitar or keys parts on a bass guitar. Of course there are exceptions - check out the great Roscoe Beck, who started tapping out organ parts on bass when he played an early tour with Robben Ford because they couldn't afford to take a keys player out! 

 

 

On the flip side, I have seen an interview with Philthy Taylor and Fast Eddie where they said that they developed the classic Motorhead sound to compensate for Lemmy playing more like a rhythm guitarist than a traditional bass player (creating a whole new sub-genre in the process)! 

 

18 minutes ago, SteveXFR said:

Rex Brown from Pantera is really good at filling the space behind he quite often plays a simple riff but with lots of additional fills to keep it busy. It's almost like a solo behind a solo. Floods is a good example of this

 

Also, listen to early DLR era Van Halen, where Michael Anthony will often play busier parts during under the guitar solos. 

 

[Al Krow]

Loved that Roscoe Beck clip, thanks @peteb!

[chris_b]

29 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

. . . . I think we can potentially tastefully add something 'more', or at least give it some thought rather than dismiss the point as being always wrong?

 

 

The OP was asking if he should use pedals or play more to fill out the sound when an instrument is missing. The point is you can add something, but you don't have to. For all the reasons given, just because there was 2 guitars on the record doesn't mean there has to be 2 guitars on the gig. I've spent years playing Soul records in bands that didn't have a brass section. The Ronettes, Crystals etc didn't gig with a Phil Spector Wall Of Sound. The dynamics of live sound means that an empty sound is better than a band trying to fill up every gap. Take Hotel California, the drum and bass line is so powerful you don't need most of the guitar lines on the record. They are there because there are 3 guitarists in the band and a 4th on the gigs but while only having 1 guitar might affect  the arrangement, it wouldn't affect the song.

 

I saw several Robben Ford gigs when he had the trio, and own live albums, and never saw Roscoe Beck tapping. I don't know when that happened.

[peteb]

4 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Loved that Roscoe Beck clip, thanks @peteb!

 

I've seen a lot of great bass players play live, and he could well be the best...! 

 

[peteb]

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

I saw several Robben Ford gigs when he had the trio, and own live albums, and never saw Roscoe Beck tapping. I don't know when that happened.

 

RB was tapping comping parts when I saw the Robben Ford & the Blue Line trio about 30 years ago! 

 

Edited Saturday at 17:41 by peteb

[Al Krow]

3 minutes ago, peteb said:

 

I've seen a lot of great bass players play live, and he could well be the best...! 

 

 

That is high praise - sounds like you and Chris both had a real treat when you heard him!

[ezbass]

I’ve been giving this some thought, whilst listening to a live album of a band with only one guitar player and doing the ironing (a mindless task that allows me to think of other things). What is missing when the rhythm guitar drops out and the lead playing begins? Most times, it’s an upper midrange tone, with some drive. Therefore, having a tone with those components and perhaps playing more (8th notes instead of quarter, 16th instead of 8ths, etc), should fill that sonic space. Aim for a Geddy Lee, Chris Squire, etc tone and you shouldn’t be too far off the mark. If you’re already playing with some drive, just add some more at the appropriate juncture, whilst adding more upper midrange (it’ll sound awful soloed, but should work in a band situation).

[leschirons]

The OP hasn't actually mentioned that the band are against the idea of another member. Just a thought.

 

I've been in this three instrument line up many times.

 

Tips.

1) Pick the right songs. ie, ones that suit the line up.

2) Find the right guitarist who's prepared to put the song before the ego. (Not suggesting yours is like that)

3) Get in a 2nd guitar or keys.

4) Do your own arrangements to suit your line up.

 

Last band I played with in this format was brilliant. Mainly down to the guitarist's attitude and willingness to experiment until it worked. Probably the best guy I've ever played with in that situation. One occasional  problem was the lack of particular chord changes behind a solo that would normally make the solo work however, the bass can imply those chord changes albeit not replace them.