Filling out the sound with no rhythm guitar

[Rexel Matador]

I play in a power trio and in my experience the drummer holds the key. The change in the dynamics when our drummer opens up on his ride cymbal is huge.

[tauzero]

10 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Coming to think about it, a really good example of when a song can sound really thin when the guitarist switches from rhythm to solo with a three piece instrument outfit (guitar, bass and drums) is Eagles - Hotel California. Obviously the Eagles had a BIG line up in terms of guitars. How fill the gap on the iconic guitar solo at the end?

 

I used to cover that by playing classical style, root-5-octave with a picking pattern of m-i-p repeated (ie octave-5-root) so the accent was constantly moving as it was on every fourth note, and pausing in the same places as the guitar does.

[PaulThePlug]

Post resurrection...

Scrolled up and as @fretmeister said back in '21 Embrace the Space, couldn't of put it better.

Some great responses, specially with the use of dynamics and pace by the bass and drummer tom or cymbal work...

Just been watching some Cream on the box, Ginger Baker moving it all about.

Edited Saturday at 23:03 by PaulThePlug

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Rexel Matador said:

I play in a power trio and in my experience the drummer holds the key. The change in the dynamics when our drummer opens up on his ride cymbal is huge.

 

On 02/12/2021 at 14:39, Greg Edwards69 said:

The drummer can help too. It's amazing how a ride cymbal can replace a rhythm guitarists.

 

That is a really useful angle to explore with our drummer! Any live clips of this in action from you guys gratefully received!

Edited Saturday at 23:39 by Al Krow

[Geek99]

It worked for jimi Hendrix 

mitch Mitchell was a very “busy” drummer 

[Al Krow]

A few of you have mentioned the Fishman Fission Powerchord pedal which I owned a few years back, but was never too enamoured with it.

 

I've just come across the EHX Pog 3, which came out in Aug last year and blows the Fishman (and, as far as I can tell, pretty much all the competition in the octave up space) out of the water. It's a seriously expensive pedal, but I can't find another polyphonic pitch shifter that comes close to it in terms of capability and tight tracking, and I suspect only a high-end multifx would get near it for pitch shift and tracking? Will also be cheaper and easier to master than an 8 string bass - take my word for it! 😅

[OliverBlackman]

Just play like Jaco and the guitarist will shorten their solos! 👍

[Al Krow]

12 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

Just play like Jaco and the guitarist will shorten their solos! 👍

 

I'll try to sing like Aretha Franklin while I'm at it 😅

 

Coming back to the EHX Pog 3, seems to me that it's verging on being a one-stop-shop Royal Blood pedal? Balking at the £500 price tag though! 

[MacDaddy]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

 

I'll try to sing like Aretha Franklin while I'm at it 😅

 

Coming back to the EHX Pog 3, seems to me that it's verging on being a one-stop-shop Royal Blood pedal? Balking at the £500 price tag though! 

 

 

Happy Jack was selling something similar a while ago. A distortion pedal that can add 4ths and 5ths.

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, MacDaddy said:

Happy Jack was selling something similar a while ago. A distortion pedal that can add 4ths and 5ths.

 

Thanks MacD.

 

I've actually just spent a fun hour or so creating a couple of patches on my trusty Zoom B1-4:

 

i) Slap back delay

There's an fx sim based on the Eventide Time Factor delay which allows me to set two simultaneous delays. I've got it set to on short slap back delays at 90ms and 150ms with limited feedback and added in a smidgen of an oct up fx into the mix, which I think will both cut through and fill out the sound.

 

ii) Powerchord

Added a  5th (actually below the root) and an octave above - touches of both so as not to be too "in your face"

I'm bit surprised on this one, that it sounds pretty much as good as I remember my old Fishman Fission Powerchord pedal being!

 

I'll give these both a go on something like Hotel California next time we've got it on our set list, before splashing out on a new toy! 

 

Edited Sunday at 15:37 by Al Krow

[Boodang]

I'm currently in a blues trio, this time playing drums. The drums is as much to the answer of the sound of a trio as the bass. Rhythmic inventiveness is the key. 

[paul_5]

Yep, get the hats open a bit more and stay off the ride!

[Al Krow]

15 hours ago, paul_5 said:

Yep, get the hats open a bit more and stay off the ride!

 

On 02/12/2021 at 14:39, Greg Edwards69 said:

All of the above advice is great.  Get your tone in order first. Plenty of mids and maybe a little overdrive to accentuate the harmonics - really bring the bass to life.

 

The drummer can help too. It's amazing how a ride cymbal can replace a rhythm guitarists

 

On 11/01/2025 at 22:31, Rexel Matador said:

I play in a power trio and in my experience the drummer holds the key. The change in the dynamics when our drummer opens up on his ride cymbal is huge.

 

Starting to sound like economists here - to ride or not to ride eh? 😂

[cheddatom]

Drummers are in control of so much of the sound of a band. They really should be thinking like a producer. Create dynamics, keep the track evolving, create space, fill space. Behind the kit you can turn the whole band up and down. The rest of the band will (should) follow. A side-stick is very different to a hit on the centre of the snare, which is very different to a rimshot. These are your main "back beat" options. Your right hand can go from the rim of a drum, to the floor tom, closed hats, open hats, regularly opening hats (IE disco), ride bell, ride body, crashing the ride, riding the crash cymbals... This is how you either create space or fill it

 

As a producer, I want the song to remain interesting, so I want the beat, or at least the sound of the kit, to change from verse to chorus. If there are 3 verses, I want at least one of them to be significantly different to the others. Likewise if there's a bridge/middle 8 it should be different. I play in a band with no rhythm guitarist. A typical punk song for us would have closed hats in the verse, open hats in the chorus, ride bell in the bridge. A blues track would have closed hats in the verses, opening gradually for "builds", and I would play the ride cymbal to fill the space under solos

 

I think a lot of drummers just focus on what they're doing rather than listening to the mix as a whole, and it really shows.

[paul_5]

A bit of delay on the guitar solo can work wonders , and it doesn’t need to be loud either - not sure whether yours will understand this concept though 😄

[Baloney Balderdash]

Adding a 1 octave up signal parallel with your regular bass signal is a great idea for this, for a faux 8 string bass -esque effect.

 

Here is a guide I made on how to get an approximate realistic/authentic 1 octave up tone out of aTC Electronic Sub'N'Up or Sub'N'Up Mini :

 

I've also only heard great things about the T-Rex Quint Machine for this, which would also allow you to additionally add a 5th up, for more of a power chord emulating effect.

 

 

Edited Monday at 20:07 by Baloney Balderdash

[Lozz196]

I just took a look at some demos of the Quint, very interesting pedal indeed, ideal for bass covering rhythm guitar .

[Baloney Balderdash]

3 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

I just took a look at some demos of the Quint, very interesting pedal indeed, ideal for bass covering rhythm guitar .

Well, it is a great pedal no doubt, probably one of the very best relatively affordable octaver pedals on the market.

 

Amazing tracking and about as low latency as it is physically possible, and also about as authentic sounding you can get from a simple pith shifting effect, without further more complex synthesising processes involved.

 

But it won't quite emulate a rhythm guitar, as it will be an octave up from you bass, but then additionally, if desired, a 5th up from your bass, not a 5th up from the octave up.

 

But I reckon it will still do a great job filling out sonic space.

 

Edited Monday at 20:16 by Baloney Balderdash

[Lozz196]

Yeah looking at it I think if I were using it say in a song with a straight eighths bassline I’d play an octave higher than usual then bring in all of the controls to suit, octave lower, fifth and octave higher. Not exactly a rhythm guitar, just added presence filling a bit of the space.

[MacDaddy]

Judicious use of Fuzz pedals with blend controls can help to fill the sonic space.

[Al Krow]

6 minutes ago, MacDaddy said:

Judicious use of Fuzz pedals with blend controls can help to fill the sonic space.

 

One thing I've struggled with in using dirt/fuzz in a live band context is, despite how good it can sound on its own, the bass seems to get lost in the mix, even when blended with a decent amount of clean. I'm guessing that's not something you're finding but I wonder if it's something others have found and what they've done to solve. In my case I've ended not really making much use of my fuzz in a live band context.

[MacDaddy]

20 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

One thing I've struggled with in using dirt/fuzz in a live band context is, despite how good it can sound on its own, the bass seems to get lost in the mix, even when blended with a decent amount of clean. I'm guessing that's not something you're finding but I wonder if it's something others have found and what they've done to solve. In my case I've ended not really making much use of my fuzz in a live band context.

 

Like most of us I've been through a few distortion/overdrive/fuzz pedals, but its my Flattley Poison Ivy bass fuzz pedal that works for me.

The blend was the reason I bought it.

[Al Krow]

35 minutes ago, MacDaddy said:

 

Like most of us I've been through a few distortion/overdrive/fuzz pedals, but its my Flattley Poison Ivy bass fuzz pedal that works for me.

The blend was the reason I bought it.

 

Aha, ok, thanks! As it happens, I picked up one of those a little while back. I'd best give it a proper try out in a live mix then, if it's the one that has got your vote!

[Boodang]

On 12/01/2025 at 23:40, paul_5 said:

Yep, get the hats open a bit more and stay off the ride!

 

As for ride cymbal, definitely times when it can be overused (or not used with enough invention/variety... think of all the signature ride patterns used by jazz drummers in particular) but also not a 'one or the other' scenario... heel splashes on the HH plus a ride cymbal can add a lot. I definitely find being in a trio gives me space to be inventive and creative. As @cheddatom says, so much you can do.

As for bass, one thought just springs to mind. I've always been a finger player until recently watching a video of Bobby Vega's very rhythmic playing with a pick. I've worked at it and now I find myself switching to pick playing when I want that extra rhythmic element, especially with damped strumming and ghost notes.

[prowla]

Some bands use synth bass pedals to add things; you can do strings, choir, orchestral sounds and suchlike.

An octave pedal like a Mosaic can do things too.

You can run the sounds to separate amps or the PA to make them distinct.

And they don't have to be on all the time; they can even just add points of interest during songs.

Rush are probably the best example of that approach.

 

Alternatively don't overthink it and just be a 3-piece.

Budgie are a good example of that (and are not dissimilar to Rush when you listen).

Robin Trower's work (Bridge Of Sighs & Long Misty Days) doesn't sound empty.