Shims just say no!

[BigRedX]

11 minutes ago, Twincam said:

 

I think they were there because vintage instruments of certain periods just didn't have good neck pockets.

Which would be a valid reason for having a shim or micro tilt feature. 

 

The micro-tilt mechanism on 70s Fenders only makes the problem of the lack of precision in routing the neck pocket even worse.

 

In theory it's a neat idea. In practice the engineering and quality control standards of the time were simply incapable of making it work. The problem was two-fold.

 

Firstly there was a "striking plate" on the heal of the neck that the micro-tilt screw acted against. This needed to be set perfectly flush to the heal otherwise the screw would be pushing the neck at an angle rather than straight up.

 

Secondly there was problem of the router templates wearing out resulting in over-size neck pockets.

 

Each of these issues on their own would not normally be a problem. However combine the two (and they always were combined) meant that the micro-tilt would also push the neck sideways in the oversized neck pocket, which in extreme cases would mean that the highest or lowest string on the instrument would no longer be over the finger board at the top of the neck.

[LukeFRC]

4 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

The micro-tilt mechanism on 70s Fenders only makes the problem of the lack of precision in routing the neck pocket even worse.

 

In theory it's a neat idea. In practice the engineering and quality control standards of the time were simply incapable of making it work. The problem was two-fold.

 

Firstly there was a "striking plate" on the heal of the neck that the micro-tilt screw acted against. This needed to be set perfectly flush to the heal otherwise the screw would be pushing the neck at an angle rather than straight up.

 

Secondly there was problem of the router templates wearing out resulting in over-size neck pockets.

 

Each of these issues on their own would not normally be a problem. However combine the two (and they always were combined) meant that the micro-tilt would also push the neck sideways in the oversized neck pocket, which in extreme cases would mean that the highest or lowest string on the instrument would no longer be over the finger board at the top of the neck.

Ok use G&L as an example which were better built... it was still added to the design... why? 

[yorks5stringer]

5 hours ago, Reggaebass said:

The 75 onward 3 bolt fender neck plate also had the micro tilt screw, and hasn’t the Marcus miller got one 

My 72 Telecaster Bass has the microtilt system too

[Velarian]

I think this may have been posted elsewhere before but it’s worth repeating here:

 

https://hazeguitars.com/blog/the-perils-of-bad-neck-shims

 

There are several other articles on this subject on his blog too. Worth a read. 

 

 

[StickyDBRmf]

I have a '70's Japanese guitar - Cameo - that someone GAVE to me. The only thing wrong with it was...that bolt-on neck angle. Put a shim in and it's a cool guitar. Showed it to a local luthier, we looked it up, they sold for around $450US back in the day. Good deal for a set of strings, a clean-up, and a piece of wood.

[2020Jazz]

16 hours ago, Reggaebass said:

I play with a really low action and I’ve shimmed many basses successfully, it works perfectly if done correctly 

Mine works perfectly.

[Rich]

I've never heard a shim speak...

[Stub Mandrel]

On 03/12/2021 at 11:04, Hellzero said:

The neck tilting, as there must be one to allow some dynamic.

 

Please explain?

[Stub Mandrel]

My Fender Performer has micro-tilt. I backed it right off and set the bass up conventionally and its great.

[Hellzero]

On 03/12/2021 at 13:32, Twincam said:

I'm not sure I follow on the tilt for dynamics? There's through neck basses that have level fretboards with the body. I'm keen to hear your thoughts. As this kind of thing interests me.

 

38 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Please explain?

 

The more tilting the neck has, the more pressure on the saddles the strings will have, increasing the dynamic and the response of the instrument and also its power.

The opposite tends to destroy the dynamic and making the strings really flappy and dull sounding, or sometimes even so dampened they seem dead.

A neck totally parallel or level to the body will mean less to no pressure on the saddles whatever break angle you might give them inducing a great loss in dynamic.

This principle is applied to instruments with a "vibrating" table like a jazz guitar, any acoustic guitar, a double bass or any instruments of the classic quintet, but there's a maximum point after which the pressure will void the string vibration.

Check the tilting of a double bass and the break angle of the strings on the bridge and you'll understand the process.

[Rayman]

IMO

 

Instruments, generally, are all different, even 10 of the same model, made by the same factory, will vary in some small way. Even premium products, certainly not just affordable ones, need tweeks sometimes, to the neck, the electrics or whatever to get them just how you want them. An other variable of course is the player themselves and their requirements. 

 

I see no problem with a shim, if it gets the instrument how you want it.... IF you know what you're doing.... AND it's actually required and not just bunged in for the sake of it.

 

So I agree with the OP , when its not necessary its obviously been done by someone "clutching at straws" rather than knowing what they're doing, how ever I'd rather that, than filing or cutting stuff out.... at least a shim is reversible, anything more drastic isn't. 

[E sharp]

On 03/12/2021 at 10:07, Reggaebass said:

Here’s some of my work if anyone wants one done 😁

I think we all know someone who’d carry out that mod

[E sharp]

On 03/12/2021 at 10:07, Reggaebass said:

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by E sharp
Double post

[E sharp]

On 03/12/2021 at 10:07, Reggaebass said:

Edited December 4, 2021 by E sharp
Double post

[Reggaebass]

1 minute ago, E sharp said:

I think we all know someone who’d carry out that mod

Definitely 😉

[Guest]

I’ve experienced both sides:

 

A bass that (Fender) didn’t play very well no matter what I tried, until I took the neck off and found a couple of shims - neck back on without them and all good.

 

3 (Fenders) I’ve bought (1 new, 2 used) had the saddles down to the bridge plate but still a ridiculous action, particularly 9th fret onwards. A small shim (edge of a plastic card) and on went the neck - problem solved. The basses played great with a low, consistent action. I had already checked relief, looked for high frets or poorly-seated frets but the neck was fine. There no way I would have even considered shaving the bridge saddles.
 

Strangely, no other brand of bass I’ve owned needed a shim. It’s almost as if their quality control is… oh well, never mind

[mcnach]

40 minutes ago, FDC484950 said:

 

Strangely, no other brand of bass I’ve owned needed a shim. It’s almost as if their quality control is… oh well, never mind

 

Very common in MusicMan at least. 

 

I'm sure a lot of people have instruments with shims but they don't know it because most people don't ever remove the necks.

[Bunion]

I removed a shim from the back of a neck heel the other day. 
yes the back of it, the action was high enough to limbo under, a bloody slab of wood, for the life of me I can’t understand the logic. 
But apparently performed by a tour technician. 
I could see the gap at the back instantly, I thought the bolts had pulled loose and the string tension was ripping the neck free. 
The guy loves his bass again now he was having difficulties with it apparently…

 

[Bunion]

1 hour ago, mcnach said:

I'm sure a lot of people have instruments with shims but they don't know it because most people don't ever remove the necks.

Didn’t Leo fender collect business cards from people to save money on shimming the necks from the factory? 

[robscott]

On 02/12/2021 at 23:44, Deedee said:

I had a Wal mkI custom a few years back that required a neck shim in order to increase the string break angle, as strings used to regularly/easily jump out of the saddle grooves. So even the alleged “best” makers can produce basses that still require a shim. 

Wouldn't string retainers have been a better fix for that? 

 

[Bunion]

9 minutes ago, robscott said:

Wouldn't string retainers have been a better fix for that? 

He’s talking about the saddles not the nut 

[Reggaebass]

How does adding a shim increase the break angle at the bridge, or am I reading this wrong 🙂

[Beer of the Bass]

16 minutes ago, Reggaebass said:

How does adding a shim increase the break angle at the bridge, or am I reading this wrong 🙂

 

Because with the neck tilted back slightly, the bridge has to be set higher to achieve a given height relative to the fretboard.

[Reggaebass]

8 minutes ago, Beer of the Bass said:

 

Because with the neck tilted back slightly, the bridge has to be set higher to achieve a given height relative to the fretboard.

Thanks, that makes sense 👍

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

This kind of reminds me of the lemon oil thread.

 

Some of my basses have shims because I prefer how they play with them. If I was to attack the bridge saddles with a file instead of using a shim there probably wouldn’t then be enough of a gap between the string and the body for my playing style.