Building a Wal....ish

[Kev]

I'm not feeling that the neck wood of a Wal impacts meaningfully on that legendary tone.  It's there, in spades, on every Wal i've heard, be it rosewood or ebony, and the almost infinite natural variation in the maple and laminates used.  The weight range alone tells you how much the wood varies, but the tone remains.  The only thing we know never changes is the pickups.  For me, so much of the tone is from that recipe, fine-tuned by the preamp (but the tone is still there passive).

 

Your bass sounds good in that video, but as you say, it doesn't really have much essence of the Wal character.  I hope it works out, but i'd be astounded if a neck change brought you much closer to the Wal tone.  Watching with keen interest if it does!!

[funkle]

25 minutes ago, Kev said:

I'm not feeling that the neck wood of a Wal impacts meaningfully on that legendary tone.  It's there, in spades, on every Wal i've heard, be it rosewood or ebony, and the almost infinite natural variation in the maple and laminates used.  The weight range alone tells you how much the wood varies, but the tone remains.  The only thing we know never changes is the pickups.  For me, so much of the tone is from that recipe, fine-tuned by the preamp (but the tone is still there passive).

 

Your bass sounds good in that video, but as you say, it doesn't really have much essence of the Wal character.  I hope it works out, but i'd be astounded if a neck change brought you much closer to the Wal tone.  Watching with keen interest if it does!!

 

I agree with you it's not the Wal tone in that video. Hence more testing...

 

My main working theories are either the Wal pickups are flat response and the system they are built into is extremely mid focused, or the pickups are so voiced that the platform they are built into is nearly irrelevant. (I think of Stingrays when I say this). The pickup makers I spoke to think that the Wal pickups are fairly even in response without large resonant peaks. That leaves us with the other theory, for now. (I've ignored the effect of the body but may yet have to come to that in time). 

 

I must admit I started off from the same place as you before this @Kev, but having had a Wal in my hands, I firmly disagree now about the effect of the neck. The strings really feel so different when plucked on a Wal neck compared to a Fender neck that I cannot help but feel that there is something significant happening to how the strings vibrate when plucked. As an extreme example of a similar effect, the Modulus bass I owned had the stiffest neck I have ever felt, and the strings felt super taut (in spite of actual string tension being similar to other instruments). Notes just popped off that bass, and it had a very cool mid-focused kind of tone which sounded amazing with EMG pickups. (Now why did I sell it...) 

 

Anyway...since it's easily testable, we'll find out one way or the other soon enough...

[Kev]

15 minutes ago, funkle said:

 

I agree with you it's not the Wal tone in that video. Hence more testing...

 

My main working theories are either the Wal pickups are flat response and the system they are built into is extremely mid focused, or the pickups are so voiced that the platform they are built into is nearly irrelevant. (I think of Stingrays when I say this). The pickup makers I spoke to think that the Wal pickups are fairly even in response without large resonant peaks. That leaves us with the other theory, for now. (I've ignored the effect of the body but may yet have to come to that in time). 

 

I must admit I started off from the same place as you before this @Kev, but having had a Wal in my hands, I firmly disagree now about the effect of the neck. The strings really feel so different when plucked on a Wal neck compared to a Fender neck that I cannot help but feel that there is something significant happening to how the strings vibrate when plucked. As an extreme example of a similar effect, the Modulus bass I owned had the stiffest neck I have ever felt, and the strings felt super taut (in spite of actual string tension being similar to other instruments). Notes just popped off that bass, and it had a very cool mid-focused kind of tone which sounded amazing with EMG pickups. (Now why did I sell it...) 

 

Anyway...since it's easily testable, we'll find out one way or the other soon enough...

 

I think though that you will find big differences in how the strings vibrate and how the neck feels even from Wal to Wal, be it MK1 to MK3, 4 string to 6 string, eighties to 20's, and yet they'll all have that Wal character in the tone, that same character.  The neck may serve to enhance and shift what is already there, but I can't envisage a neck alone totally changing the tone of an instrument beyond recognition.   My Wal (a nineties Mk2) had something about it that I've never heard close to in any other bass, but it wasn't its playability, vibrations or the feel of the bass in general.  It was entirely the sound it made.

[LukeFRC]

2 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Well, maybe - but as most decent neck woods are quarter sawn, then I'm less sure about that.  What we need is that guy in the video doing us a demo  

I’m betting the neck @funkle is currently using is a typical flatsawn fender style….

im guessing if you end up making him a new neck it will be closer to Wal stiffness

[funkle]

It’s good when reasonable people can reasonably disagree. 
 

Swapping necks on basses hand profoundly changed the character of the instruments I’ve done it to. I’ve got it up there with swapping pickups as hugely altering the tone of an instrument. 
 

There are big limits to my experience though - I’ve only ever done it with Fender bodies/necks (and once, a Status graphite neck). I’ve never swapped between one piece necks and multi-laminates. 
 

Wait and see I guess!

[Kev]

5 minutes ago, funkle said:

It’s good when reasonable people can reasonably disagree. 
 

Swapping necks on basses hand profoundly changed the character of the instruments I’ve done it to. I’ve got it up there with swapping pickups as hugely altering the tone of an instrument. 
 

There are big limits to my experience though - I’ve only ever done it with Fender bodies/necks (and once, a Status graphite neck). I’ve never swapped between one piece necks and multi-laminates. 
 

Wait and see I guess!

I guess the point I am trying to make, perhaps badly, is that if you have a 1 piece maple neck, a different 1 piece maple neck may sound just as different as a neck made of something else.  The variation within just a species is huge, otherwise every Fender bass would sound the same.  But to expect a specific tone shift from changing a neck, to the extent of changing its character in a specific direction, I'd just be very surprised.  Stingray is a good example; stick a graphite neck on a 'ray and it still sounds like a stingray.  Sure, some differences, but the character remains very much stingray.  I daresay if you put a 1 piece maple neck on your Wal, it would still have all the character of the Wal.

[funkle]

I understood your point @Kev, and you made it well. I think you are partly right in some ways, and quite wrong in others. But it is incumbent upon me now to prove it one way or the other, so I’ll try and do so. 

[funkle]

I just swapped over to the Lusithand pre, the Double NFP. I'll give some first impressions. 

 

The controls are volume, LPF front pickup with a pull switch to activate a resonance boost, LPF pickup rear pickup with pull switch for resonance boost, and pickup blend. Because of how small my test bed control cavity is, it has needed some creative positioning, so the volume knob is nearest the output jack and the blend the control nearest the fretboard. It works fine for a test. (The blend knob works the opposite way around to that on the ACG - that's messing with me, but of course it works the same way that it does on the Wal preamp. )

 

My first impression is...it sounds fab. This is exactly what I was looking for. 

 

It has to be adding harmonic distortion, because the system sounds 'gnarlier'. It's not that it doesn't sound clean, but it's not pristine.  When I dig in now, there's a lot more grit out of it.  

 

The ACG/East system has been commented previously to be very clean, and it is. It's a beautiful sounding preamp. It also goes lower in terms of the LPF knob frequency; the Lusithand cuts off a higher. The difference is quite noticeable.

 

I do miss the ability to blend back in the treble, as found on the ACG, or the 'pick attack' bump that is on the Wal. I do think Nuno should consider this. I will tell him. 

 

But overall my first impression is that it sounds really really good. I hope it comes through in recordings, which I will sort as soon as I can.  

 

I think we may have solved the 'grit'/preamp side of things. The test bed doesn't have the mid bump/compressed 'push' to the mids yet of the Wal basses, but it really is sounding a lot closer overall. I am really pleased. 

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by funkle

[garfo]

I believe you have the Neck and Bridge reversed on the motherboard. If you connect them properly, the pickups Blend will be standard.

[funkle]

1 hour ago, garfo said:

I believe you have the Neck and Bridge reversed on the motherboard. If you connect them properly, the pickups Blend will be standard.

Aha, thank you, will try that. I just thought it was meant to be like a Wal!

 

EDIT: that worked perfectly, thanks for the advice, I am clearly an idiot...at least now I know it can be wired up both ways. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by funkle

[garfo]

4 hours ago, funkle said:

Aha, thank you, will try that. I just thought it was meant to be like a Wal!

 

EDIT: that worked perfectly, thanks for the advice, I am clearly an idiot...at least now I know it can be wired up both ways. 

Sweet. If you want to have it as a Wal, just reverse them back to how they were.

Regarding the Wal "mid push", it comes down to pickup construction amongst many variables. The main thing to be considered is that even though you are using multicoils, these are not wired in the same manner as a Wal MK is. The coils should be wired in a 1 humbucker per string config plus, they should be electronically mixed before seeing the EQ stage. The NFP-SPECIAL does this, provided the coils have been wired in that manner and has 1 output per string. That will probably put you a bit closer to the Wal MK. 

As a side note, the neck construction is super important for the energy transfer of the strings, probably more than the body itself.

[funkle]

50 minutes ago, garfo said:

As a side note, the neck construction is super important for the energy transfer of the strings, probably more than the body itself.

I have strongly suspected this, as you know from my previous posts. Others are sceptical. Although I hope to show it in video once I have a new neck, would you mind sharing the basis on which you make this statement?

[funkle]

18 hours ago, garfo said:

The main thing to be considered is that even though you are using multicoils, these are not wired in the same manner as a Wal MK is.
 

The coils should be wired in a 1 humbucker per string config plus, they should be electronically mixed before seeing the EQ stage. The NFP-SPECIAL does this, provided the coils have been wired in that manner and has 1 output per string. That will probably put you a bit closer to the Wal MK. 

The pickup maker (@slowburnaz) who made the pickups I am using has already offered to wind me a set as you describe just like the Mark 1/2/3, and Aaron Armstrong can do this as well, after checking. It may eventually be another test, although if I can get ‘close enough’ this way I will be impressed. If I go that way, I would definitely get the Double NFP Special. 
 

I do wonder how much difference the ‘Pro’ vs ‘Custom’ pickup wiring makes. Has anyone quantified it?@slowburnaz. @garfo

Edited March 24, 2022 by funkle

[slowburnaz]

1 hour ago, funkle said:

The pickup maker who made the pickups I am using has already offered to wind me a set as you describe just like the Mark 1/2/3, and Aaron Armstrong can do this as well, after checking. It may eventually be another test, although if I can get ‘close enough’ this way I will be impressed. If I go that way, I would definitely get the Double NFP Special. 
 

I do wonder how much difference the ‘Pro’ vs ‘Custom’ pickup wiring makes. Has anyone quantified it?@slowburnaz. @garfo

 

 

Well, I can say there's definitely a difference.  However, quantifying just what that difference is (as with anything "sounds-like"-related) is a pretty subjective exercise.  To give you a better answer, I'd need to do some swapping around in my test bass.  I do have a couple sound samples of the multicoils up on my website, one of each wiring scheme...  though these are both of a single pickup in the standard MM position, and the signal includes some simple amp modeling (Legacy Bass 1 Complete Rig preset in Amplitube 4).

 

This is making me think that providing some hard data, like a view of the overall frequency response, might come in handy....  I'll look into making something like that available.

From a technical standpoint, I'd say the "separate" version is akin to having 4 of the single "rows" you have now, halved, in series at the same time through separate but equivalent amps, given that they're buffered and mixed in both the Wal MKs and with the Lusithand Specials.    

Edited March 23, 2022 by slowburnaz
additional thoughts

[funkle]

Thanks Chris, I’ll go check the sound samples.

 

I will say I think running the signal chain through Amplitube adds some lovely and very gentle harmonic distortion, which to my ears mimics very well what happens with your pickups + Lusithand preamp together.
 

However, the pickups on their own are very clean, as the demonstration with the ACG preamp shows well, no additional colouration from the preamp there. I might gently suggest the recording chain you are using might have a just a touch too much colour in it…perhaps worth having multiple samples, some with Amplitube and some without? 

 

And brilliant, you have your website up and running now…well done, reckon you should get some interest. 😝 

[slowburnaz]

8 minutes ago, funkle said:

Thanks Chris, I’ll go check the sound samples.

 

I will say I think running the signal chain through Amplitube adds some lovely and very gentle harmonic distortion, which to my ears mimics very well what happens with your pickups + Lusithand preamp together.
 

However, the pickups on their own are very clean, as the demonstration with the ACG preamp shows well, no additional colouration from the preamp there. I might gently suggest the recording chain you are using might have a just a touch too much colour in it…perhaps worth having multiple samples, some with Amplitube and some without? 

 

And brilliant, you have your website up and running now…well done, reckon you should get some interest. 😝 

Duly noted ;-).

I'll get some other samples up there, for sure.  The intention was to try and give a sample of what it might sound like through an actual amp, as I've always felt that straight up direct recordings aren't what I'll really ever hear in a live situation.  But yeah, a direct sample would serve as a more pure example.  I'll get on that, asap :-).

[Kiwi]

On 21/03/2022 at 00:46, funkle said:

 

I agree with you it's not the Wal tone in that video. Hence more testing...

 

My main working theories are either the Wal pickups are flat response and the system they are built into is extremely mid focused, or the pickups are so voiced that the platform they are built into is nearly irrelevant. (I think of Stingrays when I say this). The pickup makers I spoke to think that the Wal pickups are fairly even in response without large resonant peaks. That leaves us with the other theory, for now. (I've ignored the effect of the body but may yet have to come to that in time). 

 

I must admit I started off from the same place as you before this @Kev, but having had a Wal in my hands, I firmly disagree now about the effect of the neck. The strings really feel so different when plucked on a Wal neck compared to a Fender neck that I cannot help but feel that there is something significant happening to how the strings vibrate when plucked. As an extreme example of a similar effect, the Modulus bass I owned had the stiffest neck I have ever felt, and the strings felt super taut (in spite of actual string tension being similar to other instruments). Notes just popped off that bass, and it had a very cool mid-focused kind of tone which sounded amazing with EMG pickups. (Now why did I sell it...) 

 

Anyway...since it's easily testable, we'll find out one way or the other soon enough...

Nuno... is that you? 

[funkle]

9 hours ago, Kiwi said:

Nuno... is that you? 

 

I'm definitely not Nuno, but I'm pretty sure @garfo is. 

 

[TrevorR]

On 17/03/2022 at 20:43, funkle said:

I'm not sure how to measure the angle on the V shape carve of the neck. It's quite significant.

You want one of these...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Duplicator-Irregular-Measuring-Laminate-Woodworking/dp/B082PXHG9M/ref=asc_df_B082PXHG9M/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=399647037248&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1570370471340861073&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007104&hvtargid=pla-859785507490&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=85427415979&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=399647037248&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1570370471340861073&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007104&hvtargid=pla-859785507490

 

[TrevorR]

On 18/03/2022 at 09:34, Andyjr1515 said:

Yes - and the Pro 1 (?) had that flat wide one (which, given the above, was an 'unusual' choice) , although that seems to have been also relatively quickly dropped.  You can see the plate in the thread I have just posted above of @Fishman's Wal save/rebuild a couple of years back.

 

Whoops, late to the party on the profile gauge!

 

My understanding was that with the laminate construction Ian and Pete found the carbon fibre strips unnecessary and, in fact, potentially made the necks TOO stiff and resistant to profile changes. So, they dropped them for the Custom series. 

[TrevorR]

For info, on the laminates, the original Pro necks were (outside-in) laminates of maple - mukulungu - hornbeam. At some point the mukulungu was swapped for mahogany. Some time into the Custom series the hormbeam was swapped for maple. More info here: http://walbasshistory.blogspot.com/2016/10/wal-woods-part-1-necks.html

[funkle]

@slowburnaz I think I see what you mean about trying to describe the sonic difference between the 'Old Way' of multicoil wiring and the 'New Way' from listening to the samples on your website through my studio monitors. The differences are there, and noticeable, but subtle. Nonetheless I suspect I'll end up there at some point as I'm naturally curious....  

 

 

 

[funkle]

Briefly returning to an earlier topic, pickup spacing, as with the Wal Mark 1 in hand and the original post from Mikeswals on Talkbass (https://www.talkbass.com/threads/wal-bass-club.367800/page-316#post-18986378), I can extrapolate the pickup spacing for the basses that Mikeswals measured. That plus the information from @Richgives us a good showing of pickup spacing on different Wals; I don't know of this info existing anywhere else. 

 

Reassuringly, I can replicate the measurements Mikeswals has done on his Wal Mark 1 on the one I have borrowed. 

 

[Even if pickup spacing has been a bit 'eyeballed' in past builds, this post will hopefully represent the best available information that is out there.]

 

These measurements/extrapolations are all for 4 string Wals. UPDATE 8/1/23 - I have measurements for a Mark 2. 

 

In summary...

 

Wal Pro 2e (direct measurements)

 

From centre of the 12th fret to the centre of the front pickup, 295/296mm

For the same measurement for the rear pickup, 379mm. 

 

Wal Mark 1 (direct measurements)

 

From centre of the 12th fret to the centre of the front pickup, 299mm

For the same measurement for the rear pickup, 384mm. 

 

Wal Mark 2 (extrapolated)

 

From centre of the 12th fret to the centre of the front pickup, 309mm

For the same measurement for the rear pickup, 386mm. 

 

(EDIT 8/1/23: I have a Wal Mark 2 owner telling me their pickups measure out at 303mm to the centre of the neck pickup and 382 to the bridge.) 

 

Wal Mark 3 (extrapolated)

 

From centre of the 12th fret to the centre of the front pickup, 307mm

For the same measurement for the rear pickup, 384mm. 

 

 

I have had to go back and edit my original post on this, as I find from re-measuring today that I was slightly off with my original Mark 1 measurements (by 2mm on front pickup and 1mm on the rear). Super annoying. Ah well, not much I can do about it now. It will make some difference to the build, but given I am within the spacings used between the different models, I am comfortable. 

 

I guess it's interesting that the Mark 1 actually has the greatest distance between the pickups of any of the Wals.   

Edited January 8, 2023 by funkle
update for Mark 2

[LukeFRC]

I am genuinely loving this thread - it's something I've half wondered about doing myself... and you are doing all the R&D for all of us!  

[funkle]

Thanks @LukeFRC, I thought if I was doing the R&D myself, I might as well share it. That was the original thinking behind the thread anyway!

 

And I still have a lot left I want to get through, there’s plenty left to experiment with. It’s costly in time and money, but I think worthwhile. 
 

I probably should put some kind of link to this thread on Talkbass, there’s a lot of people there doing similar experiments to me out there and who share the same goals. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by funkle