Building a Wal....ish

[funkle]

I really struggled with this video about whether to add an amp sim. With the Ampeg B15 sim from Amplitube, it’s basically perfect for the RHCP BSSM sound. However it’s so flattering to the tone that it’s not a fair comparison to my first video. 
 

Similarly some compressors added so much grit that I turned them off for the same reason. It’s hard to work out how much to do ‘just DI’ and how much post production magic to add. It’s too easy to do….

 

EDIT: although I recognize most of us play through amps, which does add pleasing colouration….so it could be argued either way…

Edited December 10, 2022 by funkle

[NickA]

Certainly has some Wal like qualities!  What became of the Wal clone neck Andy made for you? I've lost track.

[funkle]

8 hours ago, NickA said:

Certainly has some Wal like qualities!  What became of the Wal clone neck Andy made for you? I've lost track.

I show it at the end of the video. It’s the next test for the video after this - I’ll fit it next and see how it affects the sound. Some of the YouTube comments on the video speculate on the impact of that, but we shall see how it plays out. 

[Kev]

That preamp sounds good!  Seems a big step forward from the ACG, which I'm not too surprised by from my experience with that pre.  Exceptionally clean and lacking in character.

 

I'm still truly sceptical of the impact of the new neck, but I'm definitely keen to be proven wrong!

[NickA]

Listened to the very end now.  Kind of hard to tell over a pc sound card and laptop speakers ... so plugged my laptop into a PJB BigHead's USB port and it's output into my bass amp (also a very clean PJB thing)! 

 

As you didn't grace us with a head to head against that Wal that's lurking in the background, I swapped around between your recordings and my Mk2.

 

I reckon you're 90% there for some settings at least.  The lusithand certainly adds the vital bit of fuzz.

 

My Wal is a bit brigher and has a harder attack, maybe a bit growlier (low mids?) ..and that "clipped" sound gets more dominant the more I lay into the strings .. on the other hand it's fitted with DR HiBeams to make it brighter and I've found that pickup height and action make a deal of difference to the sound too.  So probably you're now within the range of sounds that come out of a Wal with different setups.

 

Looking forward to the new neck ... and then a mahogany body.  And then there are some Wal owners who are convinced a black poly coating over the wood also affects the sound (they're surely wrong) 🙂

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by NickA

[funkle]

Appreciate your feedback @NickA, good points. I debated doing another head to head with the Wal but reckoned people would do as you did - swap around videos. It gave me more time to delve into the preamp. 
 

The Wal definitely has more growl/low mids. It also has something of a kind of ‘compressed’ sound that I think may have something to do with the neck stiffness. I don’t know really, just speculating.
 

I will likely need the mahogany body. These pickups are flat response and what goes in is pretty much what comes out. This has been a useful experiment in what makes a bass sound the way it does. I’m eating more humble pie as we go along… 
 

Big learning point for me is that I like rosewood boards with pickups that don’t have a strong built in resonant peak. I.e. these pickups. Hate it with typical Jazz pickups (resonant peak likely 3kHz ish depending on the capacitor - http://www.buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/table.htm). 

[fauxtoe]

On 10/12/2022 at 01:50, funkle said:

I really struggled with this video about whether to add an amp sim. With the Ampeg B15 sim from Amplitube, it’s basically perfect for the RHCP BSSM sound. However it’s so flattering to the tone that it’s not a fair comparison to my first video. 
 

Similarly some compressors added so much grit that I turned them off for the same reason. It’s hard to work out how much to do ‘just DI’ and how much post production magic to add. It’s too easy to do….

 

EDIT: although I recognize most of us play through amps, which does add pleasing colouration….so it could be argued either way…

As a major user of being amp-less on stage and going direct through in-ears, I think that having an amp/cab sim is sometimes a necessary part of the equation. There is a definite harshness that comes with hearing bass direct and it needs a little fluffing up along the way. I've found that the Tech21 YYZ pedal does a great job of this for me in conjunction with the Nordstrand Starlifter preamp at the end of the chain (which has its own vintage and modern tone shaping capabilities, should they be needed). I don't know how they recorded Flea's Wal on BSSM, but there is definitely compression added somewhere along the way and in the videos you do see his GK/Mesa rig. 

[eude]

42 minutes ago, fauxtoe said:

I don't know how they recorded Flea's Wal on BSSM, but there is definitely compression added somewhere along the way and in the videos you do see his GK/Mesa rig. 

A large chunk of the saturation and dirt, to my ear comes from driving some kind of outboard gear, possibly even the channel on a high end Neve desk, but I have read a few articles that state he recorded the whole album using his GK rig.

Sad thing is, I doubt even Flea will remember, it was a fairly wild time on the Chilli's career...

[fauxtoe]

1 minute ago, eude said:

A large chunk of the saturation and dirt, to my ear comes from driving some kind of outboard gear, possibly even the channel on a high end Neve desk, but I have read a few articles that state he recorded the whole album using his GK rig.

Sad thing is, I doubt even Flea will remember, it was a fairly wild time on the Chilli's career...

I just listened to some of the isolated tracks again and I totally agree that something is being driven. Whoever mixed and mastered that album had a lot of quality tone to work with and the ability to punch it up where needed. That brings me back to Peter's dilemma - a Wal-ish bass still has to have that fundamental distinct tone even before an amp or other gear. If that isn't there, then no amount of cab/amp sim is going to help. You were right to show it without one. I also think Geddy's studio recorded tone of his basses is much more of a raw Wal sound for comparison purposes.

[fauxtoe]

On 12/12/2022 at 13:53, funkle said:

Appreciate your feedback @NickA, good points. I debated doing another head to head with the Wal but reckoned people would do as you did - swap around videos. It gave me more time to delve into the preamp. 
 

The Wal definitely has more growl/low mids. It also has something of a kind of ‘compressed’ sound that I think may have something to do with the neck stiffness. I don’t know really, just speculating.
 

I will likely need the mahogany body. These pickups are flat response and what goes in is pretty much what comes out. This has been a useful experiment in what makes a bass sound the way it does. I’m eating more humble pie as we go along… 
 

Big learning point for me is that I like rosewood boards with pickups that don’t have a strong built in resonant peak. I.e. these pickups. Hate it with typical Jazz pickups (resonant peak likely 3kHz ish depending on the capacitor - http://www.buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/table.htm). 

 

I know you and I have talked about neck construction being a big part of the equation. My Wal-ish bass has an all wenge neck because the basses I've played with them exhibited a more dense mid-range and brighter tone, and I also own four different basses with carbon fiber necks. Most other things being equal, carbon fiber is immediately distinguishable from the rest. I've always felt that the stiffer the neck gets, the more the tone starts to open up and noticeably change. Now whether that changes for the better or for your preference becomes a personal taste. Not everyone likes the sound of a carbon fiber. There's no denying it's a different tone (usually brighter), plays very evenly, and has sustain for days (can't emphasize that enough!). So why then, when it comes to wood necked basses, would that be any different? I've played on plenty that were dead as can be, and others that would just absolutely sing. Wood, is not a (mostly) synthesized and controlled product like carbon fiber, so it inherently is going to exhibit differences. Wal figured it out a long time ago in their process that if they dry it to a certain humidity and do a multi-wood construction that the tone will remain relatively consistent from one bass to the other. I bet if you changed the neck on a Wal to carbon fiber that it would still sound like one, but different characteristics would start popping out and others might disappear.

 

Body wood remains on the bottom of the list for me for a major tone factor in a solid-body, bolt-on neck construction, with a top loading bridge. I think there is a good relationship between the neck and the body and the connection between the two needs to be tight to resonate properly, but the body wood itself is less of a factor. The bridge I feel also does more than the body wood does, and I've experienced that first hand swapping them out on a few basses and hearing the immediate difference. Wal uses their own design which is not found on anything else in the world, so unless someone swapped their original for something else it would be hard to say how much it is a contributing factor...but I bet it's enough to notice.

 

I've also had a conversation with a buddy of mine who has owned hundreds of guitars and works at a boutique guitar company. On a strat style setup the pickups are mounted to a plastic pickguard, and if equipped with a tremelo the bridge floats between the two posts and the springs. So what tone are you actually hearing in this case? The neck? The pickups? This could bring the argument that a lot of bass pickups are screwed to the body wood and it might make a bigger difference, but then there's Wal which functions more like a Gibson style humbucker that floats on a pickup ring. So again, what tone combination are we actually hearing? In my mind, and minus the type of strings, it goes like this: Pickups>Preamp>Neck>Bridge>Body

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by fauxtoe
Spelling...bad E key on my computer

[Kiwi]

12 minutes ago, fauxtoe said:

On a strat style setup the pickups are mounted to a plastic pickguard, and if equipped with a tremelo the bridge floats between the two posts and the springs. So what tone are you actually hearing in this case? The neck? The pickups?

On a strat, it's all about the pickups.  There are cardboard and concrete bodied strat shaped guitars out there which have three single coils and they all sound distinctively like strats.  But it's worth bearing in mind that basses and guitars get their timbre in different ways due to string tension.  Basses rely on body and neck for rigidity to a much greater degree than guitars so the dampening effects using different densities of wood can be manipulated to a greater degree.  

 

With graphite, it's about the constructed stiffness.  Not all necks are the same.  It's also possible to make a neck too stiff and that results in a brittle sounding instrument unless some of the attack can be rolled off by the electronics (and there are options ranging from pickup windings to extra capacitors to change inductance).

[fauxtoe]

3 minutes ago, Kiwi said:

On a strat, it's all about the pickups.  There are cardboard and concrete bodied strat shaped guitars out there which have three single coils and they all sound distinctively like strats.

 

With graphite, it's about the constructed stiffness.  Not all necks are the same.  It's also possible to make a neck too stiff and that results in a brittle sounding instrument unless some of the attack can be rolled off by the electronics (and there are options ranging from pickup windings to extra capacitors to change inductance).

 

Totally agree, and that attack is ever present in carbon fiber necks. They need to be paired with the right electronics for what you're aiming to achieve or else it can become clank city really fast. There's a major difference between my Modulus Flea Bass 5 with a Legacy Lane Poor pickup and Bartolini preamp  and my three G. Gould basses which all have different setups of EMG pickups and preamps. The Gould's can get as bright as you want them, but they tame down significantly more. It's a rare day that I'm ever dialing in extra treble!

[Kiwi]

1 hour ago, fauxtoe said:

 

Totally agree, and that attack is ever present in carbon fiber necks. They need to be paired with the right electronics for what you're aiming to achieve or else it can become clank city really fast. There's a major difference between my Modulus Flea Bass 5 with a Legacy Lane Poor pickup and Bartolini preamp  and my three G. Gould basses which all have different setups of EMG pickups and preamps. The Gould's can get as bright as you want them, but they tame down significantly more. It's a rare day that I'm ever dialing in extra treble!

Classic Barts help dial back the bite a bit and fatten up the lower mids.  As does putting the bass through an SWR400/500/900 or a Mesa Boogie Bass 400, there's something about the colouring that preserves the firm midrange but sweetens a graphite necked bass really nicely.

[fauxtoe]

6 minutes ago, Kiwi said:

Classic Barts help dial back the bite a bit and fatten up the lower mids.  As does putting the bass through an SWR400/500/900 or a Mesa Boogie Bass 400, there's something about the colouring that preserves the firm midrange but sweetens a graphite necked bass really nicely.

 

What's funny is that I vastly prefer the EMG tone and the way the preamp operates. On my old Q5 I swapped the all Bart setup for EMG and it was night and day better. That Bart preamp was a little touchy and got out of hand quickly. Not sure if it was the frequency they chose or the amount of dB boost or cut built in per EQ, but I could never get it to operate as smooth as I would have liked. No such problem with EMG! 

[Kiwi]

34 minutes ago, fauxtoe said:

What's funny is that I vastly prefer the EMG tone and the way the preamp operates. On my old Q5 I swapped the all Bart setup for EMG and it was night and day better. That Bart preamp was a little touchy and got out of hand quickly. Not sure if it was the frequency they chose or the amount of dB boost or cut built in per EQ, but I could never get it to operate as smooth as I would have liked. No such problem with EMG! 

Fair dos.  I was the opposite with both my Modulus Q5's.  The Bart soapbar equipped bass had a bowed neck though, and the EMG bass neck was too stiff.  There was also an upper mid scoop which seems characteristic of all Q5's which made it hard to hear in the mix on stage which is what lead to me experimenting.  I've played a Status Empathy though an SWR SM400 though and it sounded just as fat and clean but not brittle. 

[scannerman]

Put  Lusithand NFC circuit in my Shuker bass to get close the Wal tone   

 

[funkle]

21 minutes ago, scannerman said:

Put  Lusithand NFC circuit in my Shuker bass to get close the Wal tone   

 

What pickups do you have in there?

[scannerman]

A pair of Aguilar AG 4SS-D1  -Single Soap bar pickups

[funkle]

 

The neck made by @Andyjr1515is now on. It looks very handsome. Great job Andy!
 

Fitted with inserts and bolts to match how Wal do it, though I’m still not convinced it makes a huge difference. 
 

I’m still playing with it and getting used to it. It feels much stiffer than the Fender neck. The strings have that taut feel I get on the Wal. The notes seem to have a slightly compressed quality/pop a bit more. I assume this is something altered in the attack of the instrument. 
 

Playing this and a Wal side by side - I think it’s very close now. I need more time without family in house to crank it up and compare. 
 

 

Since I have both the Fender neck and Andy’s neck fitted with inserts/bolts, it would be pretty easy to swap necks over in a video and do a direct video comparison. Then a direct comparison to this Wal. 

[Andyjr1515]

Excellent news on all counts @funkle.  They both look great 

 

I look forward to the videos.

 

Andy

 

[Aidan63]

Recent video on SBL showed a lot of tones from the famous Wal he's just laid out for, that is some tone circuit variety in the Wal, if you can get anywhere close that's amazing, but it wasn't clear to me what was the bass and what was the amazing tone stack

[funkle]

@Aidan63 assuming I understand you rightly, the Wal bass Scott owns was a Wal Mark 1 played I think by one of the bands doing Live Aid. I think that’s how that particular instrument became famous. It has the typical Wal Custom preamp. 
 

All Wals after a certain point in time (after which they were largely called Wal Custom basses, either Mark 1, 2, or 3) have their own proprietary in-house hand wired Wal preamp circuit. The sketch for that is on page 14 of this thread, if desired. Controls were/are Volume (with a pull switch to activate a bright switch boost), one low pass filter knob per pickup (each with a pull switch on each pickup knob to allow for boost of the resonant peak for each filter), and a blend knob. 
 

The Wal-ish bass I have has the Lusithand Double NFP circuit. Same 4 knob controls as the Wal, but different frequency range affected and no bright switch. I’m coming to appreciate it more and more as time goes on. I think it’s great. I’m certain now this system is close to a Wal. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by funkle

[Geek99]

On 17/12/2022 at 03:40, Kiwi said:

On a strat, it's all about the pickups.  There are cardboard and concrete bodied strat shaped guitars out there which have three single coils and they all sound distinctively like strats.  But it's worth bearing in mind that basses and guitars get their timbre in different ways due to string tension.  Basses rely on body and neck for rigidity to a much greater degree than guitars so the dampening effects using different densities of wood can be manipulated to a greater degree.  

 

With graphite, it's about the constructed stiffness.  Not all necks are the same.  It's also possible to make a neck too stiff and that results in a brittle sounding instrument unless some of the attack can be rolled off by the electronics (and there are options ranging from pickup windings to extra capacitors to change inductance).

But surely tonewood is most of the equation ?  🍿

[Kiwi]

1 hour ago, Geek99 said:

But surely tonewood is most of the equation ?  🍿

It depends on the other ingredients, method of construction and string tension. I think tonewood also affects timbre more in basses than guitars. 

[TrevorR]

A few semi random thoughts…

 

Wals have always used proprietary electronics - right back from the Pro series models in the late 70s. The Pro series circuit boards are works of art in their own right.

 

 

 

…but it was the Custom Series basses which brought in the filter based system from about 1981. Hugely, hugely versatile system and some amazing tones which can be easily pulled up.

 

As to tone wood… Paul would say that the wood does have a bearing on the tone of the bass. However he would also say that it’s not as predictable as a people think because of the organic nature of wood and it’s variability as a material… I discussed it with him for the blog a few years ago… “The standard bodies all have a central Mahogany core and the facings add character to the overall tone. So regardless of facing choice there is a consistency running through by using the same core timber. As a general rule, the harder facings such as wenge/padauk (wenge being slightly harder) tend to be slightly brighter and punchier giving more attack and reflection - often selected for fretted basses. At the other end of the scale are the softer/less dense timbers like American Walnut, which is favourite for fretless instruments and players who prefer a rounder less aggressive sound.” Talking about preferences for fretless woods,  “Yes, in general, but to counter the theory we’ve had some great sounding hard faced (like wenge) fretless basses through here – more aggressive sounding though. Also, you mustn’t forget that the density and grain structure can vary even from one end of a single board to the other. There can be a lot of variables even on two basses with exactly the same spec."

 

Full blog here… http://walbasshistory.blogspot.com/2016/10/wal-woods-part-2-bodies.html