Building a Wal....ish

[Geek99]

On 31/12/2022 at 01:14, Kiwi said:

It depends on the other ingredients, method of construction and string tension. I think tonewood also affects timbre more in basses than guitars. 

More popcorn please 

I think I have earned it

[funkle]

Tonewood discussions in my experience tend to be fruitless. Everyone has their own opinion, and now, I will add mine...

 

I've now had a good while to play with both the Wal and the Wal-ish side by side. In my opinion, we are just about there, sonically.

 

The neck has added a huge amount to the sound, more than I had initially appreciated. There are some preamp settings now where the two instruments are indistinguishable to my ear. 

 

However, it's not perfect. I'm going to say I think changing the body wood to mahogany will add the last 5-10% to the sound. It will also be the single biggest expense of the project, most likely. Typical 80/20 or 90/10 Pareto principle type stuff....

 

I think for others who wanted to build a Wal-ish, they could stop right here and call it good, as it would be 90% of the sound without the extra cost. I'm not going to do that, obviously, lol.

 

Whilst I try and figure out the best way to record direct video comparisons, here's what open G looks like from the Wal-ish bass through Reaper into SPAN - all filters open and pickups even: 

 

 

 

And here's what open G looks like from the Wal bass through Reaper into SPAN - all filters open and pickups even:

 

 

 

There is a bit more complexity going on with the Wal, still. But it is very close indeed on rough scope and listening. 

[funkle]

A quick question to the crowd re: sourcing a custom body. 

 

@Andyjr1515 is committed to other projects and is unavailable. Chris McIntyre, who is local to me, is extremely busy also. 

 

Warmoth could do what I want - a custom order body with the correct routings and custom paint job - will take about 4 months. I'll still need to get someone here to do all the fitting out of neck and body though, etc.

 

Does anyone know anyone UK-based who might want to help me out with a custom body? 

[Andyjr1515]

41 minutes ago, funkle said:

Tonewood discussions in my experience tend to be fruitless. Everyone has their own opinion, and now, I will add mine...

 

I've now had a good while to play with both the Wal and the Wal-ish side by side. In my opinion, we are just about there, sonically.

 

The neck has added a huge amount to the sound, more than I had initially appreciated. There are some preamp settings now where the two instruments are indistinguishable to my ear. 

 

However, it's not perfect. I'm going to say I think changing the body wood to mahogany will add the last 5-10% to the sound. It will also be the single biggest expense of the project, most likely. Typical 80/20 or 90/10 Pareto principle type stuff....

 

I think for others who wanted to build a Wal-ish, they could stop right here and call it good, as it would be 90% of the sound without the extra cost. I'm not going to do that, obviously, lol.

 

Whilst I try and figure out the best way to record direct video comparisons, here's what open G looks like from the Wal-ish bass through Reaper into SPAN - all filters open and pickups even: 

 

 

 

And here's what open G looks like from the Wal bass through Reaper into SPAN - all filters open and pickups even:

 

 

 

There is a bit more complexity going on with the Wal, still. But it is very close indeed on rough scope and listening. 

 

I know it's just one note on one string, but that is remarkably close.  

 

It is a teeny bit of treble that seems to be the missing link (whether enough to actually hear it is a different matter).  The only thought I have in terms of the body is that I would have expected a mahogany body, if anything, to reduce the treble further.  Might be an interesting experiment to fit a high mass bridge to the present donor body and see what difference that makes.  My guess is that it would boost treble... 

[Owen]

1 hour ago, funkle said:

I think for others who wanted to build a Wal-ish, they could stop right here and call it good, as it would be 90% of the sound without the extra cost. I'm not going to do that, obviously, lol.

We salute you for this and recognise a kindred spirit. 

[funkle]

28 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

 

I know it's just one note on one string, but that is remarkably close.  

 

It is a teeny bit of treble that seems to be the missing link (whether enough to actually hear it is a different matter).  The only thought I have in terms of the body is that I would have expected a mahogany body, if anything, to reduce the treble further.  Might be an interesting experiment to fit a high mass bridge to the present donor body and see what difference that makes.  My guess is that it would boost treble... 

 

Great minds @Andyjr1515….I have in my hands two types of Hipshot A bridges, one in aluminium, and one in brass. I planned for this experiment as well. 
 

Sonically, the ‘Wal-ish’ sounds like it has plenty of treble, more than the Wal, as the filter range extends higher. The scope doesn’t lie though, there is more complexity for the Wal in the low treble range. 

[Kev]

I'd love if you presented the comparison as a blind sound sample test; stick up three recordings of the same part, one with the Wal, one with the new neck and one with the Fender neck, and set up a poll for each track to see who thinks what is what?  

[Andyjr1515]

53 minutes ago, funkle said:

Great minds @Andyjr1515….I have in my hands two types of Hipshot A bridges, one in aluminium, and one in brass.

Try the brass one first....

[LukeFRC]

@funkleyou win the thread of 2022 award 

[Owen]

47 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

@funkleyou win the thread of 2022 award 

Hardcore in ways I can only dream of. 

[funkle]

2 hours ago, Kev said:

I'd love if you presented the comparison as a blind sound sample test; stick up three recordings of the same part, one with the Wal, one with the new neck and one with the Fender neck, and set up a poll for each track to see who thinks what is what?  

I have considered it. I may do it yet. But first I need to show that I have gotten close enough with things as they are. 

[luthifer]

7 hours ago, funkle said:

Tonewood discussions in my experience tend to be fruitless. Everyone has their own opinion, and now, I will add mine...

 

I've now had a good while to play with both the Wal and the Wal-ish side by side. In my opinion, we are just about there, sonically.

 

The neck has added a huge amount to the sound, more than I had initially appreciated. There are some preamp settings now where the two instruments are indistinguishable to my ear. 

 

However, it's not perfect. I'm going to say I think changing the body wood to mahogany will add the last 5-10% to the sound. It will also be the single biggest expense of the project, most likely. Typical 80/20 or 90/10 Pareto principle type stuff....

 

I think for others who wanted to build a Wal-ish, they could stop right here and call it good, as it would be 90% of the sound without the extra cost. I'm not going to do that, obviously, lol.

 

Whilst I try and figure out the best way to record direct video comparisons, here's what open G looks like from the Wal-ish bass through Reaper into SPAN - all filters open and pickups even: 

 

 

 

And here's what open G looks like from the Wal bass through Reaper into SPAN - all filters open and pickups even:

 

 

 

There is a bit more complexity going on with the Wal, still. But it is very close indeed on rough scope and listening. 

Interesting!  I've always suspected the neck would be a key ingredient. That and the pickup aperture and placement would seem to be the main contributors to the harmonic signature? And strings of course. 

[funkle]

23 minutes ago, luthifer said:

Interesting!  I've always suspected the neck would be a key ingredient. That and the pickup aperture and placement would seem to be the main contributors to the harmonic signature? And strings of course. 

It’s a recipe. I guess best I can say so far is I’m clearly documenting which bits I’m following and which ingredients I’m varying, and that allows us to make our own judgements as to what is key. 
 

I am continuously eating humble pie. The fretboard wood made a huge difference, and the neck build obviously as well. I thought I’d get away with maple fretboard; I was wrong. I will I think need a proper mahogany body to get that last bit of sonic detail right. Alder isn’t quite right. Though it’s not as much of the signature as perhaps others would have said. 
 

Pickups/placement seem vital; you can’t have pickups with a strong built in resonant peak. Looks like Chris’ ( @slowburnaz) pickups fit the bill, even if they’re not quite exact Wal build clones. And it turns out rosewood boards can sound very bright with the right pickup sensing their output; that was news to me. 

And of course the pre with some built in grit/authentic sounding shaping. Nuno doing his work here. 

[fauxtoe]

15 hours ago, funkle said:

Tonewood discussions in my experience tend to be fruitless. Everyone has their own opinion, and now, I will add mine...

 

I've now had a good while to play with both the Wal and the Wal-ish side by side. In my opinion, we are just about there, sonically.

 

The neck has added a huge amount to the sound, more than I had initially appreciated. There are some preamp settings now where the two instruments are indistinguishable to my ear. 

 

However, it's not perfect. I'm going to say I think changing the body wood to mahogany will add the last 5-10% to the sound. It will also be the single biggest expense of the project, most likely. Typical 80/20 or 90/10 Pareto principle type stuff....

 

I think for others who wanted to build a Wal-ish, they could stop right here and call it good, as it would be 90% of the sound without the extra cost. I'm not going to do that, obviously, lol.

 

Whilst I try and figure out the best way to record direct video comparisons, here's what open G looks like from the Wal-ish bass through Reaper into SPAN - all filters open and pickups even: 

 

 

 

And here's what open G looks like from the Wal bass through Reaper into SPAN - all filters open and pickups even:

 

 

 

There is a bit more complexity going on with the Wal, still. But it is very close indeed on rough scope and listening. 

Wow! Seeing the measurement really shows how close it is. 
 

I’m glad the neck is proving to show how it does affect the tonal signature. That comes as no surprise to me whatsoever and I think you’re well on your way to getting it dialed in even closer. 
 

Other than my Wal-ish bass, the only other bass I’ve owned that had a mahogany body was a vintage SD Curlee bass. My gosh that little thing was a monster with its single DiMarzio model P pickup at the bridge. Its maple neck was uniquely attached to where it was a 3/4 neck thru, but was also a bolt on with a gigantic brass plate on the back. It had a very distinct, aggressive, but also slightly compressed sound to it. Whether that compression was from body wood or its other features like a brass nut and brass bridge that contributed, I don’t know. However, when you played it without amplification you could hear the basis for the tone before the electronics came into play.

[luthifer]

7 hours ago, funkle said:

7 hours ago, funkle said:

It’s a recipe. I guess best I can say so far is I’m clearly documenting which bits I’m following and which ingredients I’m varying, and that allows us to make our own judgements as to what is key. 
 

I am continuously eating humble pie. The fretboard wood made a huge difference, and the neck build obviously as well. I thought I’d get away with maple fretboard; I was wrong. I will I think need a proper mahogany body to get that last bit of sonic detail right. Alder isn’t quite right. Though it’s not as much of the signature as perhaps others would have said. 
 

Pickups/placement seem vital; you can’t have pickups with a strong built in resonant peak. Looks like Chris’ ( @slowburnaz) pickups fit the bill, even if they’re not quite exact Wal build clones. And it turns out rosewood boards can sound very bright with the right pickup sensing their output; that was news to me. 

And of course the pre with some built in grit/authentic sounding shaping. Nuno doing his work here. 

 

The type of truss rod would seem to matter as well?
 

[funkle]

I bet it does. I just asked Andy to make me a neck as close as we could to a Wal one whilst still being comfortable yet deep. I left the truss rod up to him, but specified no inserts, as most Wals don’t have them. 
 

The Luthier’s Roundtable links I posted on previous pages talked about neck inserts and truss rods quite specifically. There is a noticeable effect on tone reported from the material used (carbon, steel, titanium, none) and amount. It’s a great read. https://www.bassgearmag.com/luthiers-round-table-5/

Heiko Hoepfinger (the chap who owns Basslab) is a physicist as well as a musician and has published some really interesting articles on neck stiffness/resonance.  The whole series he did in Premier Guitar is well worth a read. 
 

https://www.premierguitar.com/amp/bass-bench-neck-joints-science-and-sound-opinions-2651066838

https://www.premierguitar.com/bass-necks-adjustability-and-resonance

 

The second article in particular has a very interesting conclusion. For bolt-on necks, he concludes the sonic impact of the body is significantly over-rated. 

[NickA]

Probably another "tiny percentage" thing ... but don't you still have the pickups wired like a Wal pro-bass not a Wal custom? 

 

As I recall, that means the individual coils are loading eachother slightly whereas on the custom they are all buffered individually before being summed; that's going to rob some treble .... maybe.

 

I'd hack back through the thread .. but it's gotten a mite long!!

[funkle]

Yes, absolutely right @NickA. This has been on my mind too. 
 

I have contemplated going for a proper set of Chris Turner’s pickups wired like Wal Custom pickups and the Dual NFP Special preamp from Lusithand to match them. The cost of this duo would be in the region of £600.

 

When I’ve been contemplating this at various points, I have then been listening in some detail to the sound clips on Chris’ website. He has relevant sound samples of both wirings of pickup (Wal Pro style and Wal Custom style) which help with this decision. 
 

https://www.turnerpickups.com - scroll further down the landing page. 
 

The Wal Pro style pickups wired in parallel (*not series*) and the Wal Custom style pickups sound nearly identical to me. I struggle to justify the additional expenditure when I listen to these sound samples. 
 

Josh Parkin, of Parkin Guitars, said in an email to me he thought the individual coil pair buffering offered by the Wal Custom preamp probably didn’t add a lot to the sound. This gave me the confidence when ordering originally to go with Wal Pro style pickups that allowed series/parallel/single row switching, as opposed to the Wal Custom style wiring. 
 

Incidentally, this is why I have stuck to recording and testing the pickups I have in parallel. I thought it was most similar. (Though the series and single row modes I have switches for both sound great, and add more flexibility to an instrument that already has too much of it.)

[bloke_zero]

On 01/01/2023 at 11:34, funkle said:

A quick question to the crowd re: sourcing a custom body. 

 

@Andyjr1515 is committed to other projects and is unavailable. Chris McIntyre, who is local to me, is extremely busy also. 

 

Warmoth could do what I want - a custom order body with the correct routings and custom paint job - will take about 4 months. I'll still need to get someone here to do all the fitting out of neck and body though, etc.

 

Does anyone know anyone UK-based who might want to help me out with a custom body? 

Guitar and Bass build took an order from me where I specced pickup, pickup location, neck pocket and wood (MM P Mahogany). The difficulty will be Mahogany - they will do Sapele or Korina which are related but not quite as Mahogany is hard to find.

 

Loving this thread!

[funkle]

1 hour ago, bloke_zero said:

Guitar and Bass build took an order from me where I specced pickup, pickup location, neck pocket and wood (MM P Mahogany). The difficulty will be Mahogany - they will do Sapele or Korina which are related but not quite as Mahogany is hard to find.

 

Loving this thread!

 

I emailed them last year and asked them about it. Got a good email chain going. Then, they just stopped responding and I decided they might not be reliable. I got an email a while after that explaining one of their team had gone on paternity leave hence the unanswered emails, but by that point I had lost faith.  

[Aidan63]

Crimson guitars might be interested ? Especially if they can get some YT hits out of it, might be worth contacting Ben direct

[luthifer]

On 01/01/2023 at 03:28, funkle said:

Tonewood discussions in my experience tend to be fruitless. Everyone has their own opinion, and now, I will add mine...

 

I've now had a good while to play with both the Wal and the Wal-ish side by side. In my opinion, we are just about there, sonically.

 

The neck has added a huge amount to the sound, more than I had initially appreciated. There are some preamp settings now where the two instruments are indistinguishable to my ear. 

 

However, it's not perfect. I'm going to say I think changing the body wood to mahogany will add the last 5-10% to the sound. It will also be the single biggest expense of the project, most likely. Typical 80/20 or 90/10 Pareto principle type stuff....

 

I think for others who wanted to build a Wal-ish, they could stop right here and call it good, as it would be 90% of the sound without the extra cost. I'm not going to do that, obviously, lol.

 

Whilst I try and figure out the best way to record direct video comparisons, here's what open G looks like from the Wal-ish bass through Reaper into SPAN - all filters open and pickups even: 

 

 

 

And here's what open G looks like from the Wal bass through Reaper into SPAN - all filters open and pickups even:

 

 

 

There is a bit more complexity going on with the Wal, still. But it is very close indeed on rough scope and listening. 

I'm curious if the pick attack was on in the Wal scan? If the schematic posted here is correct as far as the attack circuit goes, the cutoff frequency of that filter is around 500Hz (it doesn't get to full volume until about 1k). It's a low Q filter (0.5), so it doesn't have a sharp cutoff. Turning it on would appear to make the Wal-ish closer, though there's that hole around 1k...   I just finished my own treble boost filter; I set it a bit higher and crisper (about 1500 Hz and Q=.707).  I wasn't big on the concept because of noise, but it's really growing on me, and its actually pretty quiet.

[funkle]

56 minutes ago, luthifer said:

I'm curious if the pick attack was on in the Wal scan? If the schematic posted here is correct as far as the attack circuit goes, the cutoff frequency of that filter is around 500Hz (it doesn't get to full volume until about 1k). It's a low Q filter (0.5), so it doesn't have a sharp cutoff. Turning it on would appear to make the Wal-ish closer, though there's that hole around 1k...   I just finished my own treble boost filter; I set it a bit higher and crisper (about 1500 Hz and Q=.707).  I wasn't big on the concept because of noise, but it's really growing on me, and its actually pretty quiet.

 

No, pick attack was off on the Wal when I did that comparison. 

 

[funkle]

1 hour ago, Aidan63 said:

Crimson guitars might be interested ? Especially if they can get some YT hits out of it, might be worth contacting Ben direct

 

Thanks. Just emailed them, though it turns out I may have a solution already in someone international.

[funkle]

For interest re: bridge construction. 
 

Interesting email from a chap who has made Wal bridge replicas. 
 

‘All Wal Bass bridges are foundry cast zinc that's painted or plated.  The saddles are plated zinc and also foundry cast. The only piece of brass in the bridge are the square  blocks the saddles rest on. The plate under the saddles thay allows them to move is a piece of stainless steel, I believe.  I discovered all this when I molded a real Wal bridge to create my copy.’