God can forgive, but Clapton can't

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, mep said:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/dec/17/eric-clapton-wins-legal-case-against-woman-selling-bootleg-live-cd-for-845

Another article. She instructed her lawyers to refute the case which is why the costs escalated.  Interesting to see what the law is in Germany too.

 

Thanks for digging that out for us. From the Guardian:

1. In response to a standard letter from Clapton’s German legal team, the woman replied: “I object and ask you not to harass or contact me any further”, and told them “feel free to file a lawsuit if you insist on the demands”.

2. An injunction was filed and the court found in Clapton’s favour.

3. The woman appealed, stating that her late husband bought the disc in 1987 at a popular German department store, but lost. The judge said it was irrelevant that she did not buy the CD herself. 

4. Team C - “Costs are usually minimal unless the case is argued in court, which is what happened here as the lady instructed her own lawyers. Now that the full facts of this particular case have come to light, the intention is that the formal German proceedings will not be pursued any further.”

5. The woman’s lawyer told Bild [a best selling German newspaper - wonder how much she's getting paid for that?] that they intended to appeal again.

 

I have zero sympathy for anyone's anti-vax or racist views. But, seriously, this woman and her legal team are a bunch of ambulance chasers. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Al Krow

[lemmywinks]

People are still buying Clapton albums?

[skankdelvar]

One thing that's common to copyright laws in different countries is that if a copyright holder knowingly fails to act on a copyright infringement then a subsequent infringer (?) can use this as precedent to demonstrate that the copyright holder does not defend copyright, ergo there's a loophole for full-on bootleggers to exploit. You can't pick and choose which copyright infringements to go after. You have to go after them all.

 

Hence the steady stream of stories about mega-artists supposedly dumping on poor, wee, helpless individuals such as The German Widow. Now, lawyers who have been instructed to deal with copyright infringements and bootleggers usually take a softer line with private individuals who have got into a muddle unless that individual kicks up and starts briefing lawyers themselves. At which point it all goes to sh_t as it has in this case and probably rightly so.

 

That's all entirely separate from the fact that Clapton is a man with a bus-load of demons on his back. I read his autobiography and his life comes across as having been a series of hideous disasters set in a grey wasteland. That's not to excuse his silly outbursts but it helps to explain them. Maybe even enough to feel a bit sorry for him.

 

Anyhow, I'm fairly sure that most of us here would look dimly upon an audience member recording our performances and selling those recordings online or outside outside our gigs. We might even take some form of action about it and at that point we'd be doing exactly the same thingas Clapton, the only difference being we're mostly none of us famous enough for random people on interweb forums to w4nk themselves into a self-righteous frenzy about us.

[steve-bbb]

4 hours ago, skankdelvar said:

One thing that's common to copyright laws in different countries is that if a copyright holder knowingly fails to act on a copyright infringement then a subsequent infringer (?) can use this as precedent to demonstrate that the copyright holder does not defend copyright, ergo there's a loophole for full-on bootleggers to exploit. You can't pick and choose which copyright infringements to go after. You have to go after them all.

 

Hence the steady stream of stories about mega-artists supposedly dumping on poor, wee, helpless individuals such as The German Widow. Now, lawyers who have been instructed to deal with copyright infringements and bootleggers usually take a softer line with private individuals who have got into a muddle unless that individual kicks up and starts briefing lawyers themselves. At which point it all goes to sh_t as it has in this case and probably rightly so.

 

That's all entirely separate from the fact that Clapton is a man with a bus-load of demons on his back. I read his autobiography and his life comes across as having been a series of hideous disasters set in a grey wasteland. That's not to excuse his silly outbursts but it helps to explain them. Maybe even enough to feel a bit sorry for him.

 

Anyhow, I'm fairly sure that most of us here would look dimly upon an audience member recording our performances and selling those recordings online or outside outside our gigs. We might even take some form of action about it and at that point we'd be doing exactly the same thingas Clapton, the only difference being we're mostly none of us famous enough for random people on interweb forums to w4nk themselves into a self-righteous frenzy about us.

Beat me to it 

[Grimalkin]

I hear that out of the 12 people who bought it, 10 wanted a refund. 

[Hellzero]

There are some very interesting sentences in the Guardian article proving that E. C. is simply so greedy that he's chasing money everywhere.

 

1. She told the court that the listing was removed after one day. So case closed, then why keeping harassing her ?

 

2. Lawyers for the 76-year-old rock star pursued the case, and sent a Düsseldorf regional court an affidavit stating that the recordings were illegal and made without Clapton’s consent. We want your money you bad woman is what stands behind this.

 

3. Germany is a country where sales of bootleg and counterfeit CDs are rife, which damages the industry and customers with poor quality and misleading recordings. Along with a number of other major artists and record companies, over a number of years Eric Clapton has, through German lawyers, successfully pursued hundreds of bootleg cases in the German courts under routine German copyright procedures. We found a way to turn plastic into gold and we will never stop.

 

This third point clearly shows that when a bootleg appears, they won't let go and that they are chasing this. And they includes E. C. himself.

 

Sorry @skankdelvar, and with all the respect I have for you, but even if a bootleg sold can lead to jurisprudence, jurisprudence is not the law, but the application of the law under some very precise circumstances. So unless, these very specific circumstances are met again, selling a bootleg or unauthorised items is and will always be an infringement.

[Dan Dare]

11 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

There are some very interesting sentences in the Guardian article proving that E. C. is simply so greedy that he's chasing money everywhere.

 

1. She told the court that the listing was removed after one day. So case closed, then why keeping harassing her ?

 

2. Lawyers for the 76-year-old rock star pursued the case, and sent a Düsseldorf regional court an affidavit stating that the recordings were illegal and made without Clapton’s consent. We want your money you bad woman is what stands behind this.

 

3. Germany is a country where sales of bootleg and counterfeit CDs are rife, which damages the industry and customers with poor quality and misleading recordings. Along with a number of other major artists and record companies, over a number of years Eric Clapton has, through German lawyers, successfully pursued hundreds of bootleg cases in the German courts under routine German copyright procedures. We found a way to turn plastic into gold and we will never stop.

 

This third point clearly shows that when a bootleg appears, they won't let go and that they are chasing this. And they includes E. C. himself.

 

Sorry @skankdelvar, and with all the respect I have for you, but even if a bootleg sold can lead to jurisprudence, jurisprudence is not the law, but the application of the law under some very precise circumstances. So unless, these very specific circumstances are met again, selling a bootleg or unauthorised items is and will always be an infringement.

 

Sorry, you are wrong on so many counts. SD's most important point was in his first paragraph, to wit:

 

"One thing that's common to copyright laws in different countries is that if a copyright holder knowingly fails to act on a copyright infringement then a subsequent infringer (?) can use this as precedent to demonstrate that the copyright holder does not defend copyright, ergo there's a loophole for full-on bootleggers to exploit. You can't pick and choose which copyright infringements to go after. You have to go after them all."

 

Read that carefully. If he/his lawyers fail to pursue a case of copyright infringement, they are effectively giving a get out of jail free card to subsequent pirates. You acknowledge in your third paragraph that piracy is rife in Germany. Artists have no choice other than to pursue every case or risk setting a precedent that will enable pirates to ply their trade with impunity.

 

Too much white knighting going on in this thread.

[Bunion]

57 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

2. Lawyers for the 76-year-old rock star pursued the case

This team as in most cases like this, probably without knowledge of the person they are acting for but instructed by his management are of course going to pursue the case, why wouldn’t they it’s how they earn a living, probably a good one from high profile clients. 
As I said before I’ve no love or hate for EC he doesn’t do anything for me.

 

[Hellzero]

59 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

 

Sorry, you are wrong on so many counts. SD's most important point was in his first paragraph, to wit:

 

"One thing that's common to copyright laws in different countries is that if a copyright holder knowingly fails to act on a copyright infringement then a subsequent infringer (?) can use this as precedent to demonstrate that the copyright holder does not defend copyright, ergo there's a loophole for full-on bootleggers to exploit. You can't pick and choose which copyright infringements to go after. You have to go after them all."

 

Read that carefully. If he/his lawyers fail to pursue a case of copyright infringement, they are effectively giving a get out of jail free card to subsequent pirates. You acknowledge in your third paragraph that piracy is rife in Germany. Artists have no choice other than to pursue every case or risk setting a precedent that will enable pirates to ply their trade with impunity.

 

Too much white knighting going on in this thread.

No, you didn't read what I wrote correctly, it's the principle of jurisprudence that I explained.

 

A copyright infringement is a copyright infringement. Period.

 

Considering the number of bootlegs sold illegally around the world, according to what you wrote, it would mean that the copyright law has been repealed, which is not the case at all.

[skankdelvar]

54 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

piracy is rife in Germany

 

German Pirates: Surprisingly law-abiding

[MacDaddy]

13 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

 

German Pirates: Surprisingly law-abiding

 

and very efficient...

[Dan Dare]

50 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

No, you didn't read what I wrote correctly, it's the principle of jurisprudence that I explained.

 

A copyright infringement is a copyright infringement. Period.

 

Considering the number of bootlegs sold illegally around the world, according to what you wrote, it would mean that the copyright law has been repealed, which is not the case at all.

 

No, it wouldn't "mean that the copyright law has been repealed". Repealing a law can only be done by the body that makes the law (a nation's Parliament or its equivalent). However, precedent is important. If artists do not pursue cases of copyright infringement, they could be creating a potential loophole for pirates to exploit. There are many laws on the statute book that are no longer followed or enforced, because custom and practice has caused them to fall into disuse. Formally repealing them would be costly and time consuming and a waste of limited government time and resources, so they are left to languish. Once that happens, it can be difficult to resurrect them. 

 

What appears to underlie your argument (and that of others on this thread) is that it's OK to steal from someone, provided the person being stolen from is wealthy and the person doing the stealing is not.

 

Given that we are musicians on here, it baffles me that so many can argue against enforcing copyright laws. Would we feel the same were it our work that was being pirated?

[Hellzero]

Everything you wrote above is correct, except that I never wrote that I agree with bootlegs or copyright infringement : it's your interpretation.

 

My point was to explain what jurisprudence is, nothing else and also that E. C. and is bunch of lawyers have gone too far in this case as the culprit bootleg CD has been removed from the sale just after the first warning(s), but they decided to sue her.

 

And THAT is stupidly greedy.

 

That said, eBay is also responsible for what is sold on their platform whatever they've been putting in their T&C.

[NancyJohnson]

Irrespective of who sued who or the plaintiffs previous (racist) history, allegedly the defendant did communicate with the plaintiffs lawyer saying, 'You can sue me if you want.'. (Or whatever the Germanic expression is for this.)

 

All said and done this is more a case about making an example of the seller and sending out a warning to other sellers of bootlegged material, much like the people fined $$$ for downloading from Napster 20 years ago. 

 

In addition to this, loads of people are weighing in that Clapton stole everything he knows from black music/delta blues, so that makes him, by association, a very bad man. Honestly, we really need to let this argument drop, it's getting very tiring.  (Years ago, some earnest teen musician told me everything I was playing had it's roots in black music.  Interesting concept considering I was playing three chord punk stuff and my only exposure to black music was probably The Stylistics and The Three Degrees on TOTP.)

 

 

[skankdelvar]

15 minutes ago, NancyJohnson said:

(Or whatever the Germanic expression is for this.)

 

That Clapton German Bootleg Email Chain in Full

 

German Widow: Sie können mich verklagen, wenn sie wollen
Clapton Lawyer: Ich nichten lichten

[Dan Dare]

34 minutes ago, NancyJohnson said:

All said and done this is more a case about making an example of the seller and sending out a warning to other sellers of bootlegged material,

 

Pour encourager les autres. Exactement.

[skankdelvar]

4 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

 

Pour encourager les autres. Exactement.

 

That Dan Dare French Post Translated For German Pirates

 

Um andere zu ermutigen. Exakt.

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, skankdelvar said:

 

That Dan Dare French Post Translated For German Pirates

 

Um andere zu ermutigen. Exakt.

Much obliged. 

 

Now how can I get someone to bootleg some of my gigs...maybe I need some talent? 

[Cosmo Valdemar]

35 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

 

That Clapton German Bootleg Email Chain in Full

 

German Widow: Sie können mich verklagen, wenn sie wollen
Clapton Lawyer: Ich nichten lichten

I don't like it but I'll have to go along with it.

[Hellzero]

18 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Much obliged. 

 

Now how can I get someone to bootleg some of my gigs...maybe I need some talent? 

If you don't have any talent, you can use Euro, that's what they use there now. 

[Grimalkin]

"Ooooohhh I said I ain't not never got a sausage 

I gots them old bootlegger blues

It might have only sold twelve copies

But I could buy a pair of shoes..."

Edited December 18, 2021 by Grimalkin

[mr4stringz]

32 minutes ago, Cosmo Valdemar said:

I don't like it but I'll have to go along with it.

 

[yorks5stringer]

Just checking for a friend, is Clapton still God or not?

[Al Krow]

5 minutes ago, yorks5stringer said:

Just checking for a friend, is Clapton still God or not?

 

It's clearly an important question, particularly in the context of the thread title.

Please tell your friend that as recently as June 2020, intellectual male opinion still considered him to be a deity:  Why Eric Clapton is still God | British GQ (gq-magazine.co.uk)

But, as with all such deep theological matters, there are those who consider themselves "unbelievers": Eric Clapton is not God | Music | The Guardian

[Bassfinger]

Clapton has a bit of cheek to go all legal at someone when he himself shot the sheriff.