Legalities of being in a covers band…

[gapiro]

9 minutes ago, nilebodgers said:

This: https://www.cityandguilds.com/qualifications-and-apprenticeships/building-services-industry/electrical-installation/2377-electrical-equipment-maintenance-and-testing#tab=information

Somewhat sarcastic, but its just a course in best practises. There is no definition of what a PAT test contains .....

[Bassfinger]

If we're being really sarcastic, it should be pointed out that the government has not legally defined what best practice is instance...

[deepbass5]

On 23/12/2021 at 11:14, alyctes said:

don't get me wrong, I don't want that, but the point I hate is that PAT testing is a completely unregulated industry with no standards and no definitions of what it must contain. 
Therefore quality is variable and yet people overcharge for it all

 

On 24/12/2021 at 08:11, nilebodgers said:

Because there is no such thing as a defined PAT test, there is no such thing as a course for it...

All the law says is that a competent (which is agian, undefined) person has inspected (undefined) the equipment at an appropriate (undefined) interval

 

We have been on this subject a few times. PAT & PLI So here is my bit again.  Not picking on these two individual comments but as examples of, so don't beat me up.

 

As an electrician and later a lecturer in H&S inc Electrical safety.  There are certified courses run to train individuals on PAT testing - been there done that.   Though this does not stop a competant individual doing this without a certificate but removes that ambiguity, one less thing to prove in court.   I have had individuals that were on the course that simply needed that certificate to get a job or extra pay for that role. So mindful of their reasons for being there my emphasis was always around due diligence, which is why all H&S law is written very openly, so you need to prove you have done all that was reasonably practical to avoid that situation that may occure. So I went to great lengths to emphasise that this was not about buying a tester and pressing a button. But inspection and understanding how the equipment would be used and where etc.  Many bits of kit i have tested and passed on the machine I have later, on inspection seen things that were dangerous inside and required rectifying or scrapping.

As a Band you have a collective responsibility to each other your audience and the venue.  Under H&S Law "by your acts and omissions"  So what you do and what you fail to do to avoid danger.  Prove that you care and are a professional outfit that people will want to hire.

If money is changing hands for you to perform, you are a business and the hirer or other third parties may wish to persue you for losses or damages. So get insured MU is good for legal advice. 

 

Playing the bass is the easy part 😁

[nilebodgers]

22 minutes ago, deepbass5 said:

 

 

We have been on this subject a few times. PAT & PLI So here is my bit again.  Not picking on these two individual comments but as examples of, so don't beat me up.

 

As an electrician and later a lecturer in H&S inc Electrical safety.  There are certified courses run to train individuals on PAT testing - been there done that.   Though this does not stop a competant individual doing this without a certificate but removes that ambiguity, one less thing to prove in court.   I have had individuals that were on the course that simply needed that certificate to get a job or extra pay for that role. So mindful of their reasons for being there my emphasis was always around due diligence, which is why all H&S law is written very openly, so you need to prove you have done all that was reasonably practical to avoid that situation that may occure. So I went to great lengths to emphasise that this was not about buying a tester and pressing a button. But inspection and understanding how the equipment would be used and where etc.  Many bits of kit i have tested and passed on the machine I have later, on inspection seen things that were dangerous inside and required rectifying or scrapping.

As a Band you have a collective responsibility to each other your audience and the venue.  Under H&S Law "by your acts and omissions"  So what you do and what you fail to do to avoid danger.  Prove that you care and are a professional outfit that people will want to hire.

If money is changing hands for you to perform, you are a business and the hirer or other third parties may wish to persue you for losses or damages. So get insured MU is good for legal advice. 

 

Playing the bass is the easy part 😁

That is not my comment quoted, my response to that mentioned the city&guilds testing course.

[TimR]

1 hour ago, deepbass5 said:

If money is changing hands for you to perform, you are a business

 

This is the relevant part. Often we consider we are not running a business as far as HMRC are concerned. But as far as HSE are concerned if you are being paid, you're doing work and are covered by HSE laws whether you're turning a viable profit or not even covering expenses. 

[Bassfinger]

4 hours ago, deepbass5 said:

 

 

We have been on this subject a few times. PAT & PLI So here is my bit again.  Not picking on these two individual comments but as examples of, so don't beat me up.

 

As an electrician and later a lecturer in H&S inc Electrical safety.  There are certified courses run to train individuals on PAT testing - been there done that.   Though this does not stop a competant individual doing this without a certificate but removes that ambiguity, one less thing to prove in court.  

If no one can agree, or someone explodes, the that court, and only a court, can remove can remove the ambiguity.

[TimR]

3 minutes ago, Bassfinger said:

If no one can agree, or someone explodes, the that court, and only a court, can remove can remove the ambiguity.

 

Surely there's no ambiguity. If someone competent has put their name down as having inspected it, then they're the person who inspected it. No one needs to agree anything. 

[alyctes]

7 hours ago, deepbass5 said:

 

 

We have been on this subject a few times. PAT & PLI So here is my bit again.  Not picking on these two individual comments but as examples of, so don't beat me up.

 

As an electrician and later a lecturer in H&S inc Electrical safety.  There are certified courses run to train individuals on PAT testing - been there done that.   Though this does not stop a competant individual doing this without a certificate but removes that ambiguity, one less thing to prove in court.   I have had individuals that were on the course that simply needed that certificate to get a job or extra pay for that role. So mindful of their reasons for being there my emphasis was always around due diligence, which is why all H&S law is written very openly, so you need to prove you have done all that was reasonably practical to avoid that situation that may occure. So I went to great lengths to emphasise that this was not about buying a tester and pressing a button. But inspection and understanding how the equipment would be used and where etc.  Many bits of kit i have tested and passed on the machine I have later, on inspection seen things that were dangerous inside and required rectifying or scrapping.

As a Band you have a collective responsibility to each other your audience and the venue.  Under H&S Law "by your acts and omissions"  So what you do and what you fail to do to avoid danger.  Prove that you care and are a professional outfit that people will want to hire.

If money is changing hands for you to perform, you are a business and the hirer or other third parties may wish to persue you for losses or damages. So get insured MU is good for legal advice. 

 

Playing the bass is the easy part 😁

 

I agree.  But I'm not the person who wrote the text you attribute to me.  That was gapiro, here: 

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by alyctes
Borked quote.

[deepbass5]

Ya -  sorry my copy and quote, copied the quoters?

 

It was a pooly written sentance by me,  what i think Bassfinger is saying quite correctly.

 

The court will decide if the Trained qualified tester was doing the job as trained and kept good records to back this up. And would also challenge the uncertified nominated tester ( competent person) as to his actions and record keeping but would also focus on why he believes he is competent for this role - in light of incident being brought to court. A far more uncomfortable situation. I am under no illusion that a passionate and conscientious tester without qualifications, can do this perfectly safely and maybe better than someone with a certificate that is not conscientious. The court will decide.

 

My main driver on this is that, If you run a band and lets say will be playing at someones wedding that has been a year in the planning and you and your band mates may be travelling many miles to fullfill that gig, why would you risk being turned away at the door over PAT testing. Also why would you risk not having insurance to cover expensive equipment and to indemnify you against financial risk. Or Why, as has been indicated on other threads would you just buy PAT test stickers from screwfix. In hope of putting people off the scent.? 

 

Just to get back on track of ownership of images, We got an e-mail once with reference to images on our website that i had downloaded from the web. Just nice colour lighting washes of a stages. It was a good mood setting image to have some band info words over on various pages. I never replied but did remove them and found others that did not upset anyone. So it doesn't need to be someones face just a registered photographers property. 

Edited December 31, 2021 by deepbass5

[gapiro]

15 hours ago, TimR said:

 

Surely there's no ambiguity. If someone competent has put their name down as having inspected it, then they're the person who inspected it. No one needs to agree anything. 

I’m not sure that even means anything anyway. It’s still only a check at a moment in time, liability towards that person who inspected surely cannot be held, much like you wouldn’t hold a garage responsible for a car crash months after an MoT 

[funkgod]

you can use it to your advantage at times...

its the perfect excuse for when someone wants to have a go of your bass.

or for when a drunk idiot decides he wants to be in the band as well and gets on stage,

or for me the best one.... a great excuse when a fu@k wit dj asks you is it ok to go through your pa 🙂

( av you got your gear pat tested ? can i see? have you got a risk assessment ? can i see? are you insured ? can i see?  ...ohhh you have.! !  ahhhhhh mmmmm  sorry mate its only insured for us to use 🙂 )

[zbd1960]

PLI is a requirement for most things these days. I first encountered needing it back in the early 90s for holding meetings of the astronomical society I was on the committee of... All the various choirs and orchestras I've been in have had to have it too - they usually go through Making Music, but MU would be an option for individuals/bands. 

[TimR]

7 hours ago, gapiro said:

I’m not sure that even means anything anyway. It’s still only a check at a moment in time, liability towards that person who inspected surely cannot be held, much like you wouldn’t hold a garage responsible for a car crash months after an MoT 

What it means is that you have demonstrated that you are taking your obligations towards H&S seriously. Particularly the requirements to have electrical systems periodically inspected. All you need to do is go to that person and ask if they inspected that piece of equipment and can they prove it. 

 

No doubt there would then be a bun fight over what had happened to the gear for it to cause a problem, and no doubt someone would start asking awkward questions as to why you're only inspecting it once a year.

 

The point is, it's statistics. The liklihood is, and it's been shown to be true, that regular inspection reduces incidents. So if you've had it inspected you know it's not a piece of equipment that's gradually got worse over years and finally failed. 

[stingrayPete1977]

On 17/12/2021 at 14:23, fleabag said:

On the other foot,  you will be using a multitude of the venue's  mains sockets.  Is the venue covered for damage to your band's equipment if the 240v sockets go a bit awol ?

 

 

Almost certainly they will be yes.

[stingrayPete1977]

I love all the "we've never been asked to show our certificates in 20 years", I might as well not bother to tax, mot or insure my cars then? 

[deepbass5]

26 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

I love all the "we've never been asked to show our certificates in 20 years", I might as well not bother to tax, mot or insure my cars then? 

 

Or carry a spare set of strings.       My view of bands with this attitude are basically Rogue Traders.

 

I have not been asked on the night for these either but the evidence is in my gig bag. I even carry the PAT tester in the Van just incase the guitarist has bought yet another new Amp

Edited January 1, 2022 by deepbass5

[deepbass5]

On Venues electrical sockets.

 

I had a section in our bands terms and conditions that states. something similar to the following:-

Our Bass player is an Electrical Engineer and has over the years found various issues with venue electrical installations. We will test this to ensure it is safe for us to use, but reserve the right to not perform should a problem with the venues power supply be identified that may put band members at risk. Please ensure the venues electrical installation has been periodically inspected as per IEE regulations recommendations, and is properly earthed.

 

This may sound OTT, but means you can drive away and still bill them for a gig that never happened through no fault of your own.

 

My way of hitting back at the venues as Fleabag pointed out. i.e. two can play at this game.   

[gapiro]

On 01/01/2022 at 16:46, deepbass5 said:

On Venues electrical sockets.

 

I had a section in our bands terms and conditions that states. something similar to the following:-

Our Bass player is an Electrical Engineer and has over the years found various issues with venue electrical installations. We will test this to ensure it is safe for us to use, but reserve the right to not perform should a problem with the venues power supply be identified that may put band members at risk. Please ensure the venues electrical installation has been periodically inspected as per IEE regulations recommendations, and is properly earthed.

 

This may sound OTT, but means you can drive away and still bill them for a gig that never happened through no fault of your own.

 

My way of hitting back at the venues as Fleabag pointed out. i.e. two can play at this game.   

I’m curious, as my knowledge is more electronics than electrical ,what sort of thing you do to check a venues power ? 
I’ve been tempted to take a socket tester with me but not sure what else you’d do ?

[Downunderwonder]

2 hours ago, gapiro said:

I’m curious, as my knowledge is more electronics than electrical ,what sort of thing you do to check a venues power ? 
I’ve been tempted to take a socket tester with me but not sure what else you’d do ?

I am neither an electrician or an electronics guy. Afaik electricity is electronics with a single ground and a whole lot of power flying around.

[deepbass5]

4 hours ago, gapiro said:

I’m curious, as my knowledge is more electronics than electrical ,what sort of thing you do to check a venues power ? 
I’ve been tempted to take a socket tester with me but not sure what else you’d do ?

 

That's all you can do within reason, (a test plug) that shows polarity and earth correctly wired. It has saved us on a few occations. Lets face it when you get to a gig you hardly have time to scratch your derrière.  You then may require a longer extension to bring power from a socket further away. Like when bypassing the sound limiter 😮 But on large venues you can run the risk of plugging into sockets on a different final ring circuit, that is been wired on a different phase of a three phase system to balance the load across the site. This can create another risk. example. that the guitarist has a good socket near him, your side of the stage shows a fault and you run a lead from another room for your power and say the PA. and monitors. You now have the potential of 415 volts between the Guitarist amp and his mic. his monitor and maybe the lights by his feet. Best in this situation to run the whole band off the one good socket, It is a bit more do-able now with LED lighting I am assuming bands are not carrying around 3Kw of PAR cans anymore.

 

If I do come across faulty wiring ( broken, cracked, melted, socket etc.) I will always get the most senoir employee I can find and point this out. If a large hotel Chain or Civic hall,  I will actually write to head office the next day.