Amplify a fretless acoustic bass

[funkyjazz]

Hi all,
I bought a second hand fretless acoustic bass which was built without any mic/pickup.
What is the best way to amplify it having in mind that I want to come closest possible to a double bass sound?

Microphone or piezo and which?

[jd56hawk]

Piezo in mine with maybe the best acoustic preamp made, so I'd have to suggest that route.

Mine is fretted, though.

https://youtu.be/Nsf2ydAbHxI

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by jd56hawk

[franzbassist]

Will you be using it for gigging? If so, how loud will the band be?  Acoustic basses are nototrious for feedback, fretless ones even more so because you'll use a lot of open notes and sustain, which allows the note to swell which can in turn lead to feedback.

 

 

[jd56hawk]

[MoonBassAlpha]

A pedal or amp with a sweepable notch filter is extremely effective at killing feedback. You still have to take care damping the strings to keep the whole thing under control though 

[Newfoundfreedom]

23 hours ago, funkyjazz said:

Hi all,
I bought a second hand fretless acoustic bass which was built without any mic/pickup.
What is the best way to amplify it having in mind that I want to come closest possible to a double bass sound?

Microphone or piezo and which?

 

Lean on a wardrobe. 

[paul_5]

7 hours ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

 

Lean on a wardrobe. 

Free and effective.

[lemmywinks]

Depends how much you want to spend and what size (if any) hole you want to make in the sides.

 

Easiest way would be to use something like a Headway HE5, not the cheapest but does the job with minimal modifications:

https://www.headwaymusicaudio.com/product/he4-ab-feq-acoustic-bass-baritone-guitar/

[funkyjazz]

Thank you all. I am waiting for the bass to arrive to try out some solutions. I can think of use it for studio and gigging with not so loud bands

[Owen]

Piezo. But make sure you get a good preamp to buffer the piezo properly. 

[Obrienp]

On 20/12/2021 at 13:16, funkyjazz said:

Hi all,
I bought a second hand fretless acoustic bass which was built without any mic/pickup.
What is the best way to amplify it having in mind that I want to come closest possible to a double bass sound?

Microphone or piezo and which?

I would be interested to know what you settled on in the end and how it worked. I have recently bought a Guild B240 fretless and I really don’t like the Sonicore piezo system that is in it. String balance is really bad. Amplified it has to be heavily compressed to even this out. It is also very prone to feedback.
 

I am going to put a K&K Pure transducer pickup (2 transducers actually) in it but as it already has the bridge drilled for a piezo and has a battery box in the side, I thought I might fit a better under saddle system as well. It is really difficult to find purpose made acoustic bass under saddle systems in this country. Headway seems to be the only pickups available in this bracket. They have the HE5 mentioned above (about a third of the cost of the Guild) and the cheaper Snake pickups.

 

Anyway, it would be great to hear about what you chose and how it is working. Other experiences gratefully received as well. I am going to be using mine with a band when we do “unplugged” gigs, so it will be quite loud and feedback could be an issue.

[funkyjazz]

Hi all, the bass arrived only 2 days ago and I am still setting it up. For the time being I have decided not to invest more into it. When I researched online I settled over a K&K Pure Bass 4-String Pickup, though

[lemmywinks]

4 hours ago, Obrienp said:

I would be interested to know what you settled on in the end and how it worked. I have recently bought a Guild B240 fretless and I really don’t like the Sonicore piezo system that is in it. String balance is really bad. Amplified it has to be heavily compressed to even this out. It is also very prone to feedback.
 

I am going to put a K&K Pure transducer pickup (2 transducers actually) in it but as it already has the bridge drilled for a piezo and has a battery box in the side, I thought I might fit a better under saddle system as well. It is really difficult to find purpose made acoustic bass under saddle systems in this country. Headway seems to be the only pickups available in this bracket. They have the HE5 mentioned above (about a third of the cost of the Guild) and the cheaper Snake pickups.

 

Anyway, it would be great to hear about what you chose and how it is working. Other experiences gratefully received as well. I am going to be using mine with a band when we do “unplugged” gigs, so it will be quite loud and feedback could be an issue.

 

Artec also make a bass specific piezo strip, I have one and it sounds fine. RE the Sonicore I found them very fiddly to fit, sometimes just reseating the bridge saddle will sort out balance issues, they also need the base of the saddle slot to be super flat.

[Obrienp]

4 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

 

Artec also make a bass specific piezo strip, I have one and it sounds fine. RE the Sonicore I found them very fiddly to fit, sometimes just reseating the bridge saddle will sort out balance issues, they also need the base of the saddle slot to be super flat.

That’s interesting: both points. I’ll start by reseating the saddle but if that doesn’t improve the string balance, I’ll try the Artec, I am sure it is cheaper than the Headway.

 

I ordered the K&K anyway and it arrived today. Looks a little fiddly to fit but I have only heard good things about it, so it might be worth the hassle. Fortunately the Guild has a separate jack socket for its OEM pickup, so I can bore out the end pin and put the K&K socket in there. If I can sort out the under saddle piezo, I will have 2 separate signals to blend.

[lemmywinks]

31 minutes ago, Obrienp said:

That’s interesting: both points. I’ll start by reseating the saddle but if that doesn’t improve the string balance, I’ll try the Artec, I am sure it is cheaper than the Headway.

 

I ordered the K&K anyway and it arrived today. Looks a little fiddly to fit but I have only heard good things about it, so it might be worth the hassle. Fortunately the Guild has a separate jack socket for its OEM pickup, so I can bore out the end pin and put the K&K socket in there. If I can sort out the under saddle piezo, I will have 2 separate signals to blend.

 

 

The Artec is the PP417 for the 4 string version:

http://www.artecsound.com/acou/piezo.htm

 

£11 delivered:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264525530658?epid=22011371650&hash=item3d96f34622:g:hDMAAOSwl8NVbbRd

[Obrienp]

21 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

 

 

The Artec is the PP417 for the 4 string version:

http://www.artecsound.com/acou/piezo.htm

 

£11 delivered:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264525530658?epid=22011371650&hash=item3d96f34622:g:hDMAAOSwl8NVbbRd

Thanks for that I bought one: at that price, why not.

 

Did you use it with an existing preamp, or did you buy an Artec unit? The reason I ask is that the OEM Sonicore piezo in my Guild is hardwired to the board of the sound hole mounted volume and tone controls. It looks like the Artec pickup has a mini jack. I imagine it is fairly straightforward to remove that and work out which wire goes where on the board but I wondered what your experience was. Would I better to buy the Artec preamp and replace the Sonicore unit? 

[lemmywinks]

14 minutes ago, Obrienp said:

Thanks for that I bought one: at that price, why not.

 

Did you use it with an existing preamp, or did you buy an Artec unit? The reason I ask is that the OEM Sonicore piezo in my Guild is hardwired to the board of the sound hole mounted volume and tone controls. It looks like the Artec pickup has a mini jack. I imagine it is fairly straightforward to remove that and work out which wire goes where on the board but I wondered what your experience was. Would I better to buy the Artec preamp and replace the Sonicore unit? 

 

I soldered a couple of wires to a female 2.5mm jack so I could just plug the Artec piezo straight in. The bass I have it in isn't an acoustic, rather an Aria Sinsonido which I used with a basic adjustable gain preamp (built from an old Maplins kit) and also an Artec SE2 with the blend control removed so that may not be applicable here. 

 

The Sonicore in my new little Ibanez Parlour sounds great and well balanced though so maybe just reseating it will sort any issues. I have no idea why Fishman hardwire them though, they use a connector for the output jack but not one for the piezo.

[Skybone]

If it's a standard acoustic guitar sized soundhole, then maybe something like a decent soundhole pickup would do the job and not cost a fortune.

 

The Fishman Neo Soundhole pickups arent too expensive, and sound good.

 

Andertons Fishman Neo

GAK

Thomann

G4M

Edited January 29, 2022 by Skybone

[Obrienp]

15 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

 

I soldered a couple of wires to a female 2.5mm jack so I could just plug the Artec piezo straight in. The bass I have it in isn't an acoustic, rather an Aria Sinsonido which I used with a basic adjustable gain preamp (built from an old Maplins kit) and also an Artec SE2 with the blend control removed so that may not be applicable here. 

 

The Sonicore in my new little Ibanez Parlour sounds great and well balanced though so maybe just reseating it will sort any issues.

Thanks for that tip:  soldering a female socket to the original wire would be easier than removing the board and soldering onto it. I am always nervous soldering onto a board using modern lead free solder: too easy to overheat the components. However, reseating the Sonitone is obviously the first thing to try, along with fitting the K&K, as I have bought it now.

 

1 hour ago, Skybone said:

The Fishman Neo Soundhole pickups arent too expensive, and sound good.

Yes, that’s another option I guess. The sound hole on the Guild is quite small but I think the Fishman Neo would fit. I fitted a Rare Earth Blend in a Martin 015, which was even smaller, so it must be possible. I am assuming the Neo has a bar magnet, rather than individual pole pieces, so string alignment wouldn’t be an issue. I would have to remove the Sonitone sound hole preamp and controls though, as they are situated where the Neo would attach, so it really would mean junking the total system, rather than reusing components.

[Obrienp]

On 28/01/2022 at 19:32, lemmywinks said:

The Sonicore in my new little Ibanez Parlour sounds great and well balanced though so maybe just reseating it will sort any issues.

I reseated the Sonicore yesterday. The bottom of the saddle was absolutely straight and the base of the slot appeared completely even. The piezo looked fine: lying flat with no bumps, or kinks. Unfortunately reseating it made absolutely no difference to the string balance. Without loads of compression the top and bottom strings are almost inaudible. I can’t imagine the the preamp is the problem: surely it must be OK, as this is sold as an OEM bass system. It is very high gain though. The one thing I did notice was that the saddle was a very loose fit in the slot but in my experience that is more likely to cause a rattle, rather than uneven pressure on the piezo.

 

Next stop is going to be the Artec pickup and perhaps a new saddle with a tighter fit in the slot (either bone or Tusq). I’ll do this when I fit the K&K Pure transducers. I might also fit tape wounds to calm some of the overtones that are coming off the bronze strings. It shouldn’t really be necessary to do all this with a new bass and it’s a shame because it is a well made instrument and sounds great acoustically.

 

I have to say I really miss my Ibanez SRH500 Aerium but they don’t come in short scale. It sounded great plugged in, didn’t feedback, was nice and light and it didn’t have a huge body.

[nekomatic]

On 21/12/2021 at 09:15, jd56hawk said:

Piezo in mine with maybe the best acoustic preamp made, so I'd have to suggest that route.

Mine is fretted, though.

https://youtu.be/Nsf2ydAbHxI

 

That sounds great btw - and as a bonus you've put Irresistible Bliss on my afternoon playlist

 

Spoiler

 

Is the preamp just the one in the Promethean, or something else before that?

Edited January 31, 2022 by nekomatic
preamp?

[jd56hawk]

That would be the preamp in my Dean Exotica acoustic bass.

To the best of my knowledge, the only acoustic bass with the Aphex System electronics.

Edited January 31, 2022 by jd56hawk

[nekomatic]

Aha, thanks!

[Geek99]

On 27/01/2022 at 10:22, Obrienp said:

I would be interested to know what you settled on in the end and how it worked. I have recently bought a Guild B240 fretless and I really don’t like the Sonicore piezo system that is in it. String balance is really bad. Amplified it has to be heavily compressed to even this out. It is also very prone to feedback.
 

I am going to put a K&K Pure transducer pickup (2 transducers actually) in it but as it already has the bridge drilled for a piezo and has a battery box in the side, I thought I might fit a better under saddle system as well. It is really difficult to find purpose made acoustic bass under saddle systems in this country. Headway seems to be the only pickups available in this bracket. They have the HE5 mentioned above (about a third of the cost of the Guild) and the cheaper Snake pickups.

 

Anyway, it would be great to hear about what you chose and how it is working. Other experiences gratefully received as well. I am going to be using mine with a band when we do “unplugged” gigs, so it will be quite loud and feedback could be an issue.

I’m sure artec make such a saddle piezo- I connected mine to a probably fake Fishman preamp (bass came with the saddle fitted, I swapped out the existing preamp) 

[Obrienp]

I thought I would do a quick update in case anybody is interested.

 

I fitted the K&K Pure transducers: quite a fiddly operation, especially as the Guild has quite a small sound hole. If you follow the instructions to the letter and use the template they provide, you get there in the end. One of the problems I discovered is that they obviously give you the same mounting template with the bass set as they do for a standard six string acoustic guitar. The golf tee (yes really) and locating stick might be a snug fit in an acoustic bridge but the string holes in a bass bridge are much bigger, so the template is quite difficult to line up, especially as you can only get one hand in the body to do the job. Eventually I did get both sensors stuck in place on the bridge reinforcement plate inside the body, just about underneath the saddle slot in the bridge. My advice: take it slowly and give yourself plenty of time to do it. The whole job took about 2 1/2 hours. One annoyance was that, having followed the advice to drill out the end pin hole with a Forstner bit, with duct tape to protect the finish, there was still a little chip out of the top surface of the ply around the hole. This wasn’t quite covered by the collar of the end pin jack socket. I suspect this is because the back and sides on the Guild are mahogany laminate, rather than solid tone wood.

 

Anyway, it was worth all the hassle because the K&K Pure system produces a very even string balance and an accurate reproduction of the bass’s acoustic tone: better than the Sonitone under saddle system. I did notice quite a lot of handling noise, which I guess is going to be a feature with transducers fitted to the body but the system seems to be more feedback resistant than the under saddle system. I was also impressed with the strength of the signal from a passive pickup system. Almost as much gain as the Sonitone which has quite a hot active preamp.

 

Next step was to replace the Sonitone pickup with the Artec PP 417. I had to drill out the hole in the end of the bridge slot a bit to get the Artec’s cable through because of its jack plug. Cutting the original Sonitone pickup’s cable to the preamp and fitting a 2.5mm inline jack socket was straightforward but fiddly. I had to leave enough cable to be able to pull it out of the sound hole to solder on the socket but not so much that it would be flopping around once attached to the Artec’s cable. In the end I did have to coil it was once back in the body and use a cable tie to fix it to other cables: super fiddly and accompanied by much swearing. The Artec pickup seated nicely in the bridge slot but is a gnat’s thicker than the braided Sonitone pickup.

 

The final step was to replace the original bone saddle with a better fitting Tusq item. I made this from a Tusq blank and it involved about half an hour’s filing and sanding. It probably isn’t the best executed saddle but it seems to work OK and fortunately there was no compensation on the original to copy. 
 

After restringing, I was pleased to hear both pickup systems worked and actually were a marked improvement on the original Sonitone setup. The Artec pickup produces a much better string balance than the original. If anything the A string is a little quieter than the others with the Artec but I suspect that might be because I haven’t quite cut the saddle right. Tone wise the Artec is a bit more thudding than the Sonitone and perhaps has compressed the tone a little. It is seems to be slightly less prone to feedback than the original but not much. Overall though at £11 for the Artec pickup and £2.50 for the inline jack socket, it was a relatively cheap and effective upgrade over the Sonitone, while reusing the original preamp and peripherals. The Tusq saddle blank was another £11 but that wasn’t strictly necessary. Of course, the upgrade would be much more expensive if you have to get it done by a luthier. 
 

For reference the K&K Pure bass transducer system cost £95 delivered and you need a fresh tube of superglue gel to fit it, plus tools to fit the end pin jack socket. If I wanted to fit a pickup to an acoustic bass without an OEM system, I would definitely go for the K&K and not bother with an under saddle system.

 

My final task is to fit a set of Medium Scale LaBella Black Nylon Tape Wounds that arrived in the post yesterday. £44 inc p&p from Bass Direct (and much cheaper than elsewhere). I hope these will help suppress some of the Wolf tones that the bronze round wounds are producing, which I think contribute to feedback. Also there should be less string noise from slides, etc.

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Obrienp