Perennial Unwanted B-String Overtones

[Hammeron]

Hi folks.

 

First time posting on this forum.

 

I know this has probably been discussed time and time again, but I have never really found any good solid advice regarding eliminating those horrible overtones that can emanate from a B-string. So I thought I'd try kick the subject around here on Basschat and hopefully hear from some players who have tackled this issue.

 

I'm primarily a 5 string player myself, and from time to time the issue of a nasty sounding B-string raises its ugly head for me, usually above the 5th fret, with very noticeable differences between similar pitches on other strings(G played on the 3rd fret of the E sting and 8th fret of the B for example).

 

I've been trying different brands, gauges, materials, cores, tapered and non-tapered strings with varying degrees of success. However I am not made of money, and there's a growing heap of discarded string sets in the corner of my man-cave, some of which have literally been attached to my bass for a few minutes and then taken off.

 

Recently I have tried tapered strings, of which one brand in particular seemed to reduce the issue considerably, another brand(non tapered) have yielded good results for me with their nickel sets. At this stage it all seems a bit random to me and I have almost accepted the idea that I will just have to continue searching and experimenting.

 

I have attached an audio file to demonstrate. First I play a note on the B string and the the same note again on the E sting, hopefully it is evident to all as to what I'm talking about.

 

Any and all discussion/advice is welcomed.

 

Regards and seasons greetings,

Hammeron.

 

 

 

 

overtones.mp3

[Grimalkin]

If you usually have the front pickup (or back) too close to the strings, you get wolf-tones, the further up the board you go, as the string begins to get closer to the pickup. Try dropping the pickup a little under the B

Edited December 22, 2021 by Grimalkin

[Hammeron]

3 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

If you have usually the front pickup (and back) too close to the strings, you get wolf-tones, the further up the board you go, as the string begins to get closer to the pickup. Try dropping the pickup a little under the B

Hi Grimalkin,

 

I didn't mention that setup options have also been tried, pickups raised and lowered etc.

 

I really think that B strings are just too thick to sound good above the 5th fret.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Hammeron

[Grimalkin]

Just now, Hammeron said:

Hi Grimalkin,

 

I didn't mention that setup options have also been tried, pickups raised and lowered.

 

I really think that B strings just too thick to sound good above the 5th fret.

 

The timbre of a G on the B of my fives never sounds the same as on the E string. Some better than others but they do start to produce overtones as you go further up the board.

[fretmeister]

There are basses with 5 strings, and 5 string basses and they are not the same thing.

 

I like 5 strings. Played them for a long time. I've had cheap ones and expensive ones (£3K+)

 

In all that time I've only had 2 basses without those overtones.

 

Marleaux Consat Custom 34 inch scale

Ibanez Mezzo 5 string 32 scale.

 

All the others - The Stingrays (2 of them), the 37inch Dingwalls, the Sandberg TT5, other Ibanez etc have all had them. Some very mild, some very obvious.

 

I can only assume there is something in the construction of those 2 that solves the issue, and that it's a cheap fix as the Mezzo was under 10% of the cost of the Marleaux! They also had very different pickups / bridges / preamps / woods.

 

I've had all manner of strings on those 2. Steels / TI Flats / White Nylon La Bellas (amazing on the Marleaux) and even with the very brightest steels I never had the overtones.

 

 

So I believe the answer is in your bass, not in the strings. 

[BigRedX]

As a 5-string player since 1989, I'd say that it's a combination of both the bass and the string and how they react to your playing technique.

 

What works for me and the basses I currently use, is a very stiff neck with through-neck construction coupled with a taper-wound B string. Unfortunately as you have discovered what the combination that works for one player won't always suit another.

 

First things first. What bass(es) are you experiencing this problem with?

[Hammeron]

2 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

So I believe the answer is in your bass, not in the strings. 

Hey Fretmeister.

 

Yes, I think you are correct.

 

I've had several 5ers myself, and all of them have had the unwanted overtones, but to varying degrees.... that or the B-strings just sound bad all round. 

Instrument construction must play a significant part in this problem. 

 

[Hammeron]

1 minute ago, BigRedX said:

What bass(es) are you experiencing this problem with?

Hi BigRedX,

 

I play a Pavel Aryel, which was built for me by Pavel himself.

 

I haven't always had this issue, when I first acquired this bass I strung it with LaBella's and there was no overtone problem, or at least I never noticed it to the degree that it became a problem. LaBella then discontinued that particular set and my ears began to notice this issue more and more as I tried different sets/brands/gauges. At the moment I'm using Nickel D'Addarios with a .130 B and there are very little overtones. It's when I try different stings that I occasionally come up against this problem. 

 

I was intrigued by the idea that Nickel strings might be less susceptible to overtones? But I can't find anything about this online.

[BigRedX]

Was that LaBella Steels? I've found that for me these pretty much solved the problem.

 

Since then I've had decent (although not quite as good - but then they are half the price) results with Warwick Black Label (taper wound B) What I have found with other strings is that you need a much heavier low B to match the rest of the strings. I'd be looking at 135 as a minimum (to go with standard 100-40 E-G) for strings other than Warwick Black Label and LaBella Steels. 

 

Is your bass 35" scale length? That may limit your string options.

 

If you haven't already, get in touch with Newtone and see about getting them to make you a clone of your favourite LaBella set (that's what I would have done if the Warwicks weren't a acceptable compromise for me).

[Hammeron]

2 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Was that LaBella Steels? I've found that for me these pretty much solved the problem.

 

Since then I've had decent (although not quite as good - but then they are half the price) results with Warwick Black Label (taper wound B) What I have found with other strings is that you need a much heavier low B to match the rest of the strings. I'd be looking at 135 as a minimum (to go with standard 100-40 E-G) for strings other than Warwick Black Label and LaBella Steels. 

 

Is your bass 35" scale length? That may limit your string options.

 

If you haven't already, get in touch with Newtone and see about getting them to make you a clone of your favourite LaBella set (that's what I would have done if the Warwicks weren't a acceptable compromise for me).

 

Thanks for the advice 🙌 BigRed.

 

Yeah the LaBella strings were steels, can't remember which product, but I've scoured the internet for them and they're nowhere to be found. I've tried other LaBella sets but these particular ones had a .127B and they hit the sweet spot.

 

The bass is 34".

 

 

[yorks5stringer]

Seem to recall in the past some discussion about 'clamping' a 'counterweight' to the rear of the headstock to eliminate  overtones. Could be worth a try? I use 'clamping' and 'counterweight' in their loosest sense......

[SteveK]

I have to admit that I have little experience of 5 stringers. However, I've heard the dead/dull B string story too many times for me to know that it's a problem.

My experience is limited to owning a 5 string Music Man, and, of course... it suffers from a dull B string! Like yourself, I've tried various brands of strings, but none ever really solved the problem. Consequently, the MM rarely sees the light of day. When it does get used, the B string is mostly used as a thumb rest.

 

As with most instruments, compromises have to be made. The scale length of a bass can't be so long that is impossible to play, but the fatter the string the more compromise re: tone and sustain. As I see it, the only real solution would be a fan fretted bass, where the lower strings have a significantly longer scale length.

[SteveXFR]

I've not experienced over tones on either of my 5 strings (SUB Stingray and Sterling Stingray).

The B string has a much darker, duller tone than the same notes on the E string but to be honest, I try to exploit that tonal difference.

[Gwilym]

Perhaps counterintuitively, I've found my preference is a lower gauge B string (on a 35" scale bass), and possibly with a taper at the bridge where the taper still has winding on the core.

The Labella super steps with the exposed core at the bridge sounded fine, but the string was too free to vibrate and therefore felt a little bit too lively under the fingers, and more prone to rattling against the frets. Maybe fine if you had a very light touch.

The partial taper (or lighter gauge) feels like a regular untapered string but is easier to get sitting properly over the bridge saddle, therefore less likely to have its vibration inhibited by a bad set up, for want of a better description.

I also think the lighter gauge makes the B string tone more consistent (with the E string) higher up the neck too. So my recommendation would be 125 gauge max.

It's been a long time since I played a 34" scale 5er, so the above is mainly from my experience on 35" (and 34.5") scale.

[robscott]

Well you can't really expect a thick B string to sound the same as the thinner E string, it's not there to give you a direct alternative. I play exclusively 5 string basses, and I don't go out of my way to use the B string, it's just there if I need it. A big fat B string will always have a slower response, more overtones, a duller overall tone and be somewhat more difficult to play faster passages on, but the trade off is that it gives you a different fingering option when playing certain patterns and it gets you down below the E when you need it. I think the key is to use the B string judiciously, only where it is the best or only option. For me the money is in the middle three strings, round about the 5th to 8th fret. YMMV

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

Does this also occur if you use a pick?

[BabyBlueSound]

For me, on certain frets (like 5th on D) I get short, audible overtones even if I fully, quickly, forcefully mute with my right hand, be it palm or picking finger. I was told flats or at least balancer rounds should solve this... will try at some point. Not into flats, I have a set of tapes I will need to try this with...

[Boodang]

Best way to avoid those B string overtones is to take it off, throw the awful thing in the bin and put on a high C instead!

[Boodang]

...or bonkers solution no.2; get some extra tension in the string by using an extended solo tuning: C#, F#, B, E, A.

The upside of this, it would be fun to watch someone if they borrowed your bass!

[SumOne]

I've got the same sort of issue that 5 string Basses tend to feel like the E-G are all part of the same family and the B is a bit of an odd-one out. I've tried solving that adjusting a lot of variables:

 

• Scale actually doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference, I've owned quite a few different scale Basses and the B still always feels like the odd one out:
  • 34" Fender Jazz and Sandberg TM5
  • 35" Lakland 55-02
  • 35.5" Ibanez SRMS 805
  • 37" Dingwall Combustion 

• Strings: Roundwound, Flatwound, Tapewound and various tapered and steel/nickel options don't make a huge amount of difference - it's more a differene in tone/brightness. 

• Setup: Getting the correct neck tension and intonation can help, so can string height and pickup height. 

• Playing style: Rolling my fingers over the B string rather than plucking and playing further towards the neck seems to work best. 

 

All those things make a bit of difference but the B still feels the odd one out so I was starting to come to the conclusion that it's just the way B strings are but then I played an Xotic XP5 (34" P Bass style) with roundwounds the other day and it was the most even sounding Bass across all strings I've ever played (I did only play it in a shop for about 10 minutes though) so I now think certain Basses nail it while others need work-around and compromise. The main issue is that XP5 is about £2,500 new - so considerably more expensive than any Bass I've owned, perhaps that quality is the answer? Or perhaps it's the P Bass style pickup/sound whereas most of my Basses are more J style, possibly that J style always just gives more of a 'overtone/growl' to the B string?

 

A good work-around I've found (other than adjusting playing style) is using pedals: Adding some mild overdrive and preamp tone (One Control Crimson Red reduced  treble and adds Bass with some mild overdrive that evens out tones across all strings - but it's only good if you want stuff sounding dark and dubby) and some compression and focussed EQ can subtly make all the strings sound more even and mask some B string differences.

 

Also, playing loud through a Bass Cab and with a band rather than through headphones or monitor speakers at home makes everything sound more even as it's harded to hear the subtle differences. I'm torn at the moment if it's worth spending a  lot more money on a Bass or just learning to live with the compromise knowing it's only really me that's likely to notice the difference.

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by SumOne

[fleabag]

Just dont play the B above the 5th fret

[chris_b]

The same notes on different strings never sounds the same. An open G doesn't sound like a fretted G on the D string. The differences sound greater as you go down the strings. 

 

I haven't noticed any issues on my Sadowsky or Mike Lull basses, nor with the previous US Lakland, all 5 stringers, but then I probably don't play many lines on the B string above the G/8th fret. Up to the G everything sounds good.

[SumOne]

18 minutes ago, chris_b said:

 

I haven't noticed any issues on my Sadowsky or Mike Lull basses, nor with the previous US Lakland, all 5 stringers, but then I probably don't play many lines on the B string above the G/8th fret. Up to the G everything sounds good.

 

Do you think that's perhaps because the Sadowsky, Mike Lull and US Lakland are all quite high-end Basses though? Or has it sounded fine on cheaper Basses too?

[BigRedX]

Neck and neck joint construction play a major role in getting a good sounding low B string (along with matching the correct string to the bass and your playing style). It's unsurprising to me that the higher quality basses have the best sounding and feeling low B strings. I've yet to come across any 5-string bass that retails at under £1k that is any good in this respect.

[chris_b]

28 minutes ago, SumOne said:

 

Do you think that's perhaps because the Sadowsky, Mike Lull and US Lakland are all quite high-end Basses though? Or has it sounded fine on cheaper Basses too?

 

Sorry, no idea about other basses. In 20 years I've only played these 3.