Input Gain + Vol, + Master Vol

[fleabag]

What's the best way to balance the input gain knob that has it's own volume, with the master volume?

 

Asking for a friend 

 

Ta 

 

[Downunderwonder]

A rule of thumb is to provide optimal signal through each stage by decreasing or increasing output to suit the following stage. So best is most often attained by giving a strong enough signal on to the preamp via the input gain.

 

Some preamps will give you more flavour by pushing them into overdrive if that's what you are into.

 

A too weak signal generally isn't going to spin your wheels. On the other hand I found a very pleasing tone in my Trace with an active EUB that sounded best when only just getting the light on.

 

So no hard and fast rules really.

 

The master output knob is usually a simple attenuation that you turn 'down' to get more volume ie less attenuation. 

[fleabag]

I think i'm on your page.  As it happens, i dont like overdrive,  so i set the gain to just before the clip light ,  but then the gain knob has a volume too,  so surely the gain knob itself is all that's needed ?  Why a vol on the gain as well as the gain knob ?   The master vol isnt a worry

[Downunderwonder]

1 hour ago, fleabag said:

I think i'm on your page.  As it happens, i dont like overdrive,  so i set the gain to just before the clip light ,  but then the gain knob has a volume too,  so surely the gain knob itself is all that's needed ?  Why a vol on the gain as well as the gain knob ?   The master vol isnt a worry

When an amp has a 'Gain' knob and a 'Level' knob at the front of the preamp the gain knob is essentially a tone knob that functions by increasing level and the level knob balances the total that goes onward.

[fleabag]

Ta !

 

Well thats a bit mysterious, as i've seen amps with a gain but no gain level knob.   Too cheap to add a level knob ? 

 

[Hellzero]

Nope, it's simply useless and adding unnecessary noise to the overall signal chain.

 

All you need is a gain control and a master volume with the EQ just after the gain and the effect loop just before the master volume, or none of those for a purer signal.

[Downunderwonder]

58 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

unnecessary noise to the overall signal chain.

One man's unnecessary noise is another's juicy tone and the reason for the extra feature. If you only do clean there's the other half? of the amps out there for you.

[Lozz196]

I`ve found that to get the best out of my Ashdown amps the Input Gain needs to be set so that the loudest part of my playing (ok, yes we all know that means all of it as I have no subtlety with my ham-fist-punk approach) puts the needle on the meter into the red. From there select Output Gain to match the volume of the other instruments. It`s actually quite amazing how much of a difference it makes, it`s almost like the amp "comes alive" in comparison to if the Input Gain is set a fair bit lower.

[bassman7755]

The "middle" volume on your amp is probably a preamp out volume, usually you would only have one of these if you have an effects loop and/or multiple preamp channels.

If you have multiple channels then obviously then use the channel volume to balance them, if you're using effects loop then run this volume as high as possible before the effects clip or distort. If not doing either then just set it to half way.

 

So to set it up ...

Run as much gain as you can consistent with the sound you want as per Lozz's description.

Run any intermediate volume/level at 50% / 12'oc as a starting point.

Adjust your final level using the master volume.

 

[bassman7755]

1 hour ago, Lozz196 said:

I`ve found that to get the best out of my Ashdown amps the Input Gain needs to be set so that the loudest part of my playing (ok, yes we all know that means all of it as I have no subtlety with my ham-fist-punk approach) puts the needle on the meter into the red. From there select Output Gain to match the volume of the other instruments. It`s actually quite amazing how much of a difference it makes, it`s almost like the amp "comes alive" in comparison to if the Input Gain is set a fair bit lower.

 

.... because it was designed to be used that way (assumption on my part but a fairly safe one).

[Lozz196]

Yes the manuals state to do it, and it`s one of those situations where strangely enough reading the manual is very beneficial. I just wonder how many people have gone ahead and done their own thing and not been entirely happy with their amps as a result.

[fleabag]

After all this, it seems i'm setting things as advised, and to my tone liking, and that is...  set gain to before ' overdriving / gritty '  and then adjust gain volume to suit , then master

 

That gets me a great basis to eq as i see fit.

 

PS  the amp is a Genz Shuttle 6.2

[Japhet]

The old Trace amps were my favorites for this with the green, amber, red lights that showed you how hot the signal was going into the preamp.

[NHM]

Invoke 'bass law' - all gear manufacturers should be made to put some form of meter on every item of kit where there is variable gain, so you can assess the output of the device. 

You wouldn't cook a recipe just with a list of ingredients but no sense of quantities, are signal chains any different?

Happy Christmas, by the way...

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 16, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Japhet]

1 hour ago, Jus Lukin said:

 

I was going to ask!

 

The the gain appears to be the input level into the preamp valve, volume is to avoid clipping further down the line. The clip LED appears to meter clipping after the EQ, so that if you want, say, a distorted sound with a big low end boost you can reduce the volume into the EQ to redress level. It might have been more intuitive to have the volume and clip LED after the EQ. Does the LED also light as you drive the valve?

 

I have a Genz Streamliner as a back up and and I've never understood the clip light. It states that it is the power stage clipping as opposed to the preamp stage that is common to every other amp I've ever owned. I just ignore it.

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 16, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Hellzero]

Mesa Boogie is the company @agedhorse has worked for, amongst others, certainly.

[Stub Mandrel]

Trust your ears. Set everything  low and starting from the input  dial everything  as high as you can get it without having a detrimental effect on the sound.  Obvs this will depend on how much distortion or type of tone you want. Some amps behaviour is in other ways  e.g. subtle changes in frequency response or compression.

If that doesn't work you have the wrong tonewood.

[Downunderwonder]

Not wanting to steal the aged one's thunder but when he's recovered from excess hay consumption he'll be along to tell you all about Streamliners and Shuttles from his days as main man at GenzBenz.

[agedhorse]

On the Shuttle series, the input LED senses input stage overload and also backs up by sensing the post EQ signal, but it's pretty hard to overdrive the eq unless you are doing something very outside the box.

 

The output clip (or limit) LED senses the power amp stage through an adaptive algorithm, it indicates that the output tube overdrive circuit is operating (this begins to come into effect a couple of dB before clipping) and engages an adaptive limiting circuit that adds both compression and harmonics to the tone. There's about 6dB of compliance in this function before power amp clipping occurs. That's a 4:1 power ratio between threshold and clipping, which is quite a large range. Knowing this and the information contained in the manuals, you will better understand how to use the output limiting function.

 

I have attached the manuals for your convenience.

Shuttle 6.0 Owners Manual (rev. 3).pdf Shuttle 6.2 Owners Manual.pdf Streamliner 900 Owners Manual.pdf

[jimbobothy]

…. I’ve got x2 Streamliner 900s and a 12.2 ShuttleMax, great amps thank you 👍🏼

[Gareth Hughes]

1 hour ago, jimbobothy said:

…. I’ve got x2 Streamliner 900s and a 12.2 ShuttleMax, great amps thank you 👍🏼

 

Same as that - a Streamliner 900, a Streamliner 600 and a Shuttle 3.0 combo. Eternal thanks Andy.

[fleabag]

On 25/12/2021 at 10:14, Jus Lukin said:

 

I was going to ask!

 

The the gain appears to be the input level into the preamp valve, volume is to avoid clipping further down the line. The clip LED appears to meter clipping after the EQ, so that if you want, say, a distorted sound with a big low end boost you can reduce the volume into the EQ to redress level. It might have been more intuitive to have the volume and clip LED after the EQ. Does the LED also light as you drive the valve?

 

 

No, i cant seem to light up the input  O/L  ( underneath the Gain/Gain Vol ) even with gain fully up and grumbling

[Thunderbird]

On 23/12/2021 at 09:43, Lozz196 said:

I`ve found that to get the best out of my Ashdown amps the Input Gain needs to be set so that the loudest part of my playing (ok, yes we all know that means all of it as I have no subtlety with my ham-fist-punk approach) puts the needle on the meter into the red. From there select Output Gain to match the volume of the other instruments. It`s actually quite amazing how much of a difference it makes, it`s almost like the amp "comes alive" in comparison to if the Input Gain is set a fair bit lower.

I've been thinking of buying a new amp but this might be just the ticket cheers lozz