alexclaber Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 [quote name='escholl' post='456719' date='Apr 7 2009, 07:32 PM']sorry to keep going on about this, but the bit depth you record at has nothing to do with the headroom you allow yourself. 16-bit, 24-bit, it doesn't make a difference to the mic pre's or the ADC. Recording in 16-bit will not give you 14 bits. it will give you 16-bits, with a noise floor and artifacts after post-processing that are slightly higher than if you'd recorded in 24 from the start -- but it's still 16 bits! Like i said before, with proper dithering (meaning good or at least decent ADC's) the dynamic range is still huge![/quote] It is entirely to do with the headroom you allow yourself. For every 6dB of unused dynamic range you are giving up one bit. As 10dB is only twice as loud and few drummers are completely consistent in their playing if you set the meters so they peak at -10dB when setting up you are then recording a signal that is basically only 14 bits deep - the 15th and 16th bits stay as 0 all the time unless you have a moment of excessive volume (and thus you are protected from digital clipping). All the dithering in the world can't do anything with a number that has zeros at the start. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='456955' date='Apr 7 2009, 11:18 PM']It is entirely to do with the headroom you allow yourself. For every 6dB of unused dynamic range you are giving up one bit. As 10dB is only twice as loud and few drummers are completely consistent in their playing if you set the meters so they peak at -10dB when setting up you are then recording a signal that is basically only 14 bits deep - the 15th and 16th bits stay as 0 all the time unless you have a moment of excessive volume (and thus you are protected from digital clipping). All the dithering in the world can't do anything with a number that has zeros at the start. Alex[/quote] the point is not how close to 0dBFS you are, it's how high off the usable noise floor you are! bit depth controls how low this can be, and thus the dynamic range -- and dithering has everything to do with this! trust me! a certain bit depth does not "waste" more or less bits in recording. Also, the 6dB thing again, applies to the effective dynamic range, and therefore basically the noise floor, NOT 0dBFS. sorry! but 0dBFS never gets any higher, no matter how many bits you use. 16-bit has a theoretical minimum of around -91dBFS without dithering, while 24-bit is around -137dBFS (although no ADC are that quiet) -- that's where the extra bits go! I can see how you probably confused the 6dB per bit thing with a loss of two zeros -- the problem is you've approached it from the wrong end of the scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acidbass Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 This thread might be slightly better manned in the [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showforum=10"]Recording[/url] forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoe_BillySheehan Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 i plug into an 1/8 to a 1/4... high tech or what? haha and garageband..free ...with macs... yep... lol xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryer Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 [quote name='Eight' post='456101' date='Apr 7 2009, 08:47 AM']Very good laptop + high spec audio interface + good sequencer software. Are you *sure* you need 4 simultaenous inputs? Having multiple tracks is great if you're editing, but unless you do that then for a practice session it seems like you're just adding complexity. You could record it all as one track if you plugged everything in to a little mixer and balanced the levels there. Just means you couldn't make changes later. Even take the mixer's output to something basic like a minidisc recorder etc.[/quote] No, I'm not sure I need 4 inputs, and I do want to keep it simple. There are lots of suggestions for recording everything together, like the Zoom H4 which sounds good, and easy. But I would like to, say, play the original song we're doing and record my bass line, then play this bass line and record a vocal track, on my own. Then when the boys come round, play this and and the guitars, etc, and record on separate tracks so we can re-do some. Different to my original query, now I almost have an idea of what I want to do. Therefore, is an 8 track, ie, Boss BR 600 suitable ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 [quote name='escholl' post='456980' date='Apr 8 2009, 12:20 AM']the point is not how close to 0dBFS you are, it's how high off the usable noise floor you are! bit depth controls how low this can be, and thus the dynamic range -- and dithering has everything to do with this! trust me! a certain bit depth does not "waste" more or less bits in recording. Also, the 6dB thing again, applies to the effective dynamic range, and therefore basically the noise floor, NOT 0dBFS. sorry! but 0dBFS never gets any higher, no matter how many bits you use. 16-bit has a theoretical minimum of around -91dBFS without dithering, while 24-bit is around -137dBFS (although no ADC are that quiet) -- that's where the extra bits go! I can see how you probably confused the 6dB per bit thing with a loss of two zeros -- the problem is you've approached it from the wrong end of the scale.[/quote] I was lucky enough to attend a seminar with Bob katz and his team a couple of years back... And your points are pretty much what they said. Also added was the quality of the tracking engineers, Good engineers have no problem getting excellent results with 16 bit. My take on it is... If you are new to it, go with 24 bit as you will proberly get better results that way. [might be minimal though] Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 [quote name='fryer' post='457055' date='Apr 8 2009, 08:13 AM']Therefore, is an 8 track, ie, Boss BR 600 suitable ?[/quote] it looks that way. no xlr inputs though, it doesn't look like, so plugging in a condenser mic wouldn't be possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 [quote name='lowdown' post='457122' date='Apr 8 2009, 10:11 AM'] I was lucky enough to attend a seminar with Bob katz and his team a couple of years back...[/quote] Oooh, lucky. Funnily enough, I've learned a fair amount of this stuff from reading his book on mastering -- a really good read if you haven't read it. If only i had 1/10th of his talents! ^_^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 (edited) [quote name='escholl' post='457128' date='Apr 8 2009, 10:17 AM']Oooh, lucky. Funnily enough, I've learned a fair amount of this stuff from reading his book on mastering -- a really good read if you haven't read it. If only i had 1/10th of his talents! ^_^[/quote] That was the first thing a purchased after seeing him... That book is a must really. I am not sure if it is still avaliable...but you could sit in on one of his sessions through a live link, [ you had to book a link time, and if the artist gave permission] I will see if its still around. Garry Edited April 8, 2009 by lowdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelios Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 I am currently using a tascam DP-01FX along with fruity loops on the pc, it is ok but i wouldnt say its the best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 For what purpose are you making these recordings? Is it a sketch pad, or are you looking to take some of those sketches into the realm of real multitracking - cos the later isnt cheap if you want really good results IME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryer Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 [quote name='51m0n' post='457204' date='Apr 8 2009, 11:29 AM']For what purpose are you making these recordings? Is it a sketch pad, or are you looking to take some of those sketches into the realm of real multitracking - cos the later isnt cheap if you want really good results IME.[/quote] Only so that we can listen and improve. Not making demo's or anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Really just get a Zoom H2 or H4 and figure out where in the room to put it to get the right balance. It will be the quickest solution. Second to that pick up a second hand minidisc recorder and a couple of half decent PZM mics PZMs are tragically underrated for this sort of thing. Properly placed (flat on a wall or ceiling) they will completely outperform something like that found in an H2 or H4 since the surface they are attached to becomes part of the microphone. Also they are suppoesed to be always phase aligned as a result of their design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 I recently discovered that this site from my uni band was still up: [url="http://www.spiderplant.net/agentorange/html/recordings/recordings.html"]http://www.spiderplant.net/agentorange/htm...recordings.html[/url] The recordings from Nov '99 were done with two PZMs on the kit (one on the ceiling, one in front of the kick drum), SM58 on guitar amp and SWR GP DI'd for bass, all into a Tascam 424 MkII (double speed cassette 4-track), vocals then overdubbed on Cubase. Not a bad sound at all for low tech/cost! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='457562' date='Apr 8 2009, 04:26 PM']I recently discovered that this site from my uni band was still up: [url="http://www.spiderplant.net/agentorange/html/recordings/recordings.html"]http://www.spiderplant.net/agentorange/htm...recordings.html[/url] The recordings from Nov '99 were done with two PZMs on the kit (one on the ceiling, one in front of the kick drum), SM58 on guitar amp and SWR GP DI'd for bass, all into a Tascam 424 MkII (double speed cassette 4-track), vocals then overdubbed on Cubase. Not a bad sound at all for low tech/cost! Alex[/quote] Exactamundo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 [quote name='dave_bass5' post='456323' date='Apr 7 2009, 12:29 PM']For gigs (we dont rehearse) i used to use a Minidisc recorder with a sony mic and that seemed to work well but recently i got a Edirol R-09Hr recorder that i strap to the singers mic stand. ...[/quote] I've got the Edirol too - it's fabulous. The remote really swung it for me. The only downside was not having a tripod mount built-in (you do get one with a rather overpriced leather case)- but I can normally find somewhere for it anyway. Recordings are quite bass-heavy, I find. (A great feature Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 PZM mics tend to only be as good as the room they're in -- and even then, then can pick up too much of that room. Interesting concept, works better for somethings than others though -- usually things like pianos do well, in the right space. For those of you into recording, if you really want to try some interesting drum stuff, try a kick mic and an overhead MS configuration. Stereo AB pair tends to work quite well though, and doesn't pick up too much room. I think this post is wildly off topic to the OP though, my apologies! If you're just looking to get ideas down, something like a zoom H2 would be perfect for you, i think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 [quote name='escholl' post='457755' date='Apr 8 2009, 07:52 PM']PZM mics tend to only be as good as the room they're in -- and even then, then can pick up too much of that room. Interesting concept, works better for somethings than others though -- usually things like pianos do well, in the right space. For those of you into recording, if you really want to try some interesting drum stuff, try a kick mic and an overhead MS configuration. Stereo AB pair tends to work quite well though, and doesn't pick up too much room. I think this post is wildly off topic to the OP though, my apologies! If you're just looking to get ideas down, something like a zoom H2 would be perfect for you, i think![/quote] Well I'd point out that the OP is talking about sketchpad recordings rather than multitracks, and in that case you are always limited by the room. You can out your H4 in a class room and it'll sound great, but stick it at the bottom of a stairwell and it probably wont. Its not the PZM specifically that causes that - its the fact that you are actually recording the room.... The kick and overhead MS is great, as is a Blumlein config (plenty exotic one that, requires a pair of figure of 8 polar pattern mics, one left to right and one front to back and 3 channels on the desk), I've had amazing results (in a brilliant room) with a U87 18 feet above the kit, compressed to bits. And I mean unbelievable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryer Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 Thanks for all your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='51m0n' post='458504' date='Apr 9 2009, 03:31 PM']Its not the PZM specifically that causes that - its the fact that you are actually recording the room....[/quote] wasn't that my point? hence my recommendation of the H2, as it can be set to pick up less of the room.... also the blumlein pair you mention is just MS -- the "M" mic can be any polar pattern you want, depending on the results you want. fryer, glad we could help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappygarry Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) I am a location recording engineer as well as a studio engineer and routinely record gigs, shows, jazz sets, classical stuff and simple location stuff so I bounce between a couple rigs ranging from 16 channels to 48. I use a 003 16 channel pro tools rig for small gigs and jobs. I use a Pro Tools HD2 with 24 channels (upgradeable to 48 if i need) for bigger jobs. Generally I also have an Alesis HD24 as backup to the HD2 rig as these jobs are more important and absolutely cannot fail. Infact, I usually always have some sort of redundant backup somewhere, even if it is a simple stereo Zoom H2 or Laptop. G Edited April 10, 2009 by slaphappygarry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 I've heard good sounding results using an IPod with a (Belkin?) stereo mic. it wasn't loud stuff but was quite clear. Couldn't be much cheaper than that! + 1 on the PZM too. Used to go into a reasonable cassette recorder. It picks up everything you need to hear to see if you're making mistakes. Don't need much more than that for your purposes. Jules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Anyone still interested in the difference in real terms between 16 bit and 24 bit needs to read this fairly comprehensive study over at Recording Review forum. [url="http://forum.recordingreview.com/f18/bit-depth-wars-10872/"]http://forum.recordingreview.com/f18/bit-depth-wars-10872/[/url] Interesting stuff.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 These days I'm all about the Digidesign C24 (with the Focusrite preamps) into ProTools 7. I'd get geeky about the Neumann U87 as well, but I have a slightly preference for the warmer Rode NTK and the more shimmery AKG414. U87s sound in my opinion just a little tad bland, and need more work in the mix to make them come alive. My home setup is Reaper, EZdrummer, Garritan, Guitar Rig 3, Ampex SVX, Waves plugins, and T-Racks Deluxe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twigman Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 PC with RME HDSP9632 soundcard with the I/O extension boards Alesis 3630 compressor for vocal compression prior to recording Cakewalk Sonar 7 producer edition I record at 16bit 44100kHz to keep file sizes down and I hear little difference at the end of the day from 24bit. 16/44.1 gives less headroom when mixing than say 24/96 but uses a lot fewer CPU cycles which means I can keep my buffers smaller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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