Note Names

[Eight]

The other current music theory thread got me thinking.

I vaguely know the note names in Italian, but it occurred to me that I've never seen them used. It never came up when I studied classical so I'm wondering if its now just a posh orchestra thing (never played in one)? Do Italian people use them as common place?

I know other languages have different names for the notes, but this is music so let's face it, if its not in English or Italian (with the occasional German forgiven) then noone really cares.

[The Funk]

By Italian do you mean quavers, crotchets etc?

I had an American teacher with an R&B background so I picked up his terminology.

[Eight]

[quote name='The Funk' post='456790' date='Apr 7 2009, 08:38 PM']By Italian do you mean quavers, crotchets etc?[/quote]
Whoops no, but I see where you came from there. I should have been more specific.

I mean like sol diesis instead of G sharp.

Edited April 7, 2009 by Eight

[The Funk]

Ah! I get what you mean - solfege?

Nope, I don't use that and don't think I was ever taught that way.

[SteveO]

[quote name='Eight' post='456792' date='Apr 7 2009, 09:44 PM']Whoops no, but I see where you came from there. I should have been more specific.

I mean like sol diesis instead of G sharp.[/quote]

Been playing classical music for 20 years and composing and conducting orchestral music for about 3 years now and no one that i've ever met uses these names. The only time i've come across them was in Fux's study of counterpoint (it predates Mozart) I doubt if they've been used in anything in the last 200 years that isn't written in Italian.

[Eight]

Cool, cheers guys.

I'm glad its not just me who hadn't used them before then.

[MacDaddy]

I hate the way the Yanks do it, 8th notes, quarter notes etc...

I've seen it creeping into some guitar mags here, especially in the notes to tabbed transcriptions.

[s_u_y_*]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='457196' date='Apr 8 2009, 11:18 AM']I hate the way the Yanks do it, 8th notes, quarter notes etc...

I've seen it creeping into some guitar mags here, especially in the notes to tabbed transcriptions.[/quote]

I actually like it. Although I do use describe notes as crotchets and quavers, when talking to people unfamilar with musical notation I find it easier for them to understand in terms of quarter notes and 8th notes.

Edited April 8, 2009 by s_u_y_*

[Bilbo]

I had never heard of them, despite having Fux's book on my book shelf!

Best I read it then?

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='457196' date='Apr 8 2009, 11:18 AM']I hate the way the Yanks do it, 8th notes, quarter notes etc...

I've seen it creeping into some guitar mags here, especially in the notes to tabbed transcriptions.[/quote]

I like that system as it's logical and easy to work out, whereas if you are not too adept at memory it's difficult to commit with non relevant names. I am much better with logic that gives you the chance to work stuff out and terrible at reading and memorising material. I am an aural tradition learner.

[SteveO]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='457330' date='Apr 8 2009, 02:02 PM']I like that system as it's logical and easy to work out, whereas if you are not too adept at memory it's difficult to commit with non relevant names. I am much better with logic that gives you the chance to work stuff out and terrible at reading and memorising material. I am an aural tradition learner.[/quote]

there's only 6 names in common usage for gods sake

Semibreve, minim, crotchet, quaver, semiquaver and demisemiquaver corresponding to whole, half, quarter, 8th, 16th and 32nd notes respectively.

you may come across a Breve in 16th century choral music, and the occasional hemidemisemiquaver (or worse) where the composer can't be bothered to rethink the tempo / time sig. If you want to really be pedantic there's only four names - Breve, minim, crotchet and quaver, with semi, demi and hemi prefixes to denote subdivisions. It's hardly a feat to remember them all. remembering the names of the notes of the chromatic scale takes 3 times as much memory


I recon it depends on what you are used to, I hate having to mentally convert from 'metric' names to real names when on the composing fora that I frequent, but the americans always whine when I don't convert back, so horses for courses and all that.

[SteveO]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='457220' date='Apr 8 2009, 12:41 PM']I had never heard of them, despite having Fux's book on my book shelf!

Best I read it then? [/quote]

I wouldn't bother, It's just a big list of rules to make you sound like any other mediocre baroque composer. Allegedly Mozart denounced it as having the biggest single detrimental effect on original composition in all time, although Beethoven thought Fux was the bee's knees. Personally I think there's more to learn from a good Jazz book (Levine for eg) but I don't think I need to encourage you in that direction do I

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='Eight' post='456765' date='Apr 7 2009, 08:09 PM']The other current music theory thread got me thinking.

I vaguely know the note names in Italian, but it occurred to me that I've never seen them used. It never came up when I studied classical so I'm wondering if its now just a posh orchestra thing (never played in one)? Do Italian people use them as common place?

I know other languages have different names for the notes, but this is music so let's face it, if its not in English or Italian (with the occasional German forgiven) then noone really cares. [/quote]
My girlfriend (who is a classically trained singer) uses it- the only benefit I can see is that if you're good you can identify relationships to the tonic (dominant etc) more easily. I had to do a bit of it when I did music at uni as well but I never got the point of it. If you can read notation reasonably well it seems pretty redundant to me.

As ever, I stand to be corrected though...

edit- I assume you mean solfege.

Edited April 8, 2009 by velvetkevorkian

[Eight]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='457729' date='Apr 8 2009, 07:11 PM']edit- I assume you mean solfege.[/quote]
Well kinda. Solfège is the sight singing training thing (like the Sound of Music crap) isn't it?

I was originally taught to recognise intervals using that (and am trying to redevelop the skill) but outside of sight singing, I've never seen anyone use the terms as actual note names even though I'm told in some systems Do is "fixed" to C and not simply the root note. Maybe they were only ever used for sight singing - I don't know.

Did you mean you trhink solfège itself is a little redundant?

[Simon]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='457196' date='Apr 8 2009, 11:18 AM']I hate the way the Yanks do it, 8th notes, quarter notes etc...

I've seen it creeping into some guitar mags here, especially in the notes to tabbed transcriptions.[/quote]

I must admit I prefer the American way, and I think it's becoming more mainstream over here.

The terms to make a lot more sense. If some says "quarter" or "8th" or "16th" notes to you, you know exactly what they mean in relation to a bar/time sig.

[SteveO]

[quote name='Simon' post='458193' date='Apr 9 2009, 11:53 AM']I must admit I prefer the American way, and I think it's becoming more mainstream over here.

The terms to make a lot more sense. If some says "quarter" or "8th" or "16th" notes to you, you know exactly what they mean in relation to a bar/time sig.[/quote]

It only makes sense if you're playing 4/4.

In 6/8 an 'Eighth' note is a sixth of the bar, in 5/4 it's a tenth... in 2/4 it's a quarter note, or is it????

Any other time sig than 4/4 throws it right out of the window. Even rock music has been known to stray away from 4/4 (sometimes )

[The Funk]

[quote name='SteveO' post='458266' date='Apr 9 2009, 12:19 PM']It only makes sense if you're playing 4/4.

In 6/8 an 'Eighth' note is a sixth of the bar[/quote]

Still makes sense there. There are six 'eighth' notes in the bar.

[SteveO]

[quote name='The Funk' post='458277' date='Apr 9 2009, 01:25 PM']Still makes sense there. There are six 'eighth' notes in the bar.[/quote]

Hey, you're right. Never looked at it that way before.

and 12/8/ is 12 eighths of a 4/4 bar, and 9/4 is 9 quarters of a 4/4 bar.... it works... although I'm not sure how 'triplet quarter notes' can be mathematicaly justified.

Still think that it's the work of the devil and should be banned though.


Edit:
No, wait a bit, you're using misdirection to confuse me. 5/4 may mean 5 quarters of a 4/4 bar, but an eighth note is still not an eighth of a 5/4 bar.
Ha!

Edited April 9, 2009 by SteveO

[The Funk]

[quote name='SteveO' post='458266' date='Apr 9 2009, 12:19 PM']in 5/4 it's a tenth...[/quote]

[quote name='SteveO' post='458317' date='Apr 9 2009, 12:55 PM']No, wait a bit, you're using misdirection to confuse me. 5/4 may mean 5 quarters of a 4/4 bar, but an eighth note is still not an eighth of a 5/4 bar.
Ha! [/quote]

You're kind of right both times. There are 10 eighth notes in a bar of 5/4. I find it useful because it refers to - excuse my ignorance of the correct terminology here - the second number in a time signature, ie. the 4 in 5/4.

If it was meant to refer to a fraction of the bar, I'd find it confusing as hell.

Edited April 9, 2009 by The Funk

[SteveO]

lol. it doesn't really matter, I just think that musical nomenclature can be confusing at the best of times (eg the second can mean the second interval, the second note of a scale or the chord based on the second note of the scale) and I can't see any real benefit for using the 'metric' note names when they make it (IMO) more confusing (especially when they're wrong ). It doesn't make it so much harder to communicate with other musicians when you use different names. You say tomayto and I say tomato and all that.

Edited because I forgot to say what I wanted to the first time round

Edited April 9, 2009 by SteveO

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='Eight' post='458083' date='Apr 9 2009, 08:43 AM']Did you mean you trhink solfège itself is a little redundant?[/quote]
Yes. And unless you plan learning music theory in Italian I don't think there's any point in learning the notes in Italian- I've never come across it being used in the orchestras I've played in (up to Scottish national youth level), being coached by pro orchestral players doing music at uni for 2 years. I think that's the answer to the question you actually asked

[Eight]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='458382' date='Apr 9 2009, 01:32 PM']Yes.[/quote]
I can't say I have much of an opinion on it really. Just wanted to make sure I understood your point of view.

[quote]And unless you plan learning music theory in Italian I don't think there's any point in learning the notes in Italian- I've never come across it being used in the orchestras I've played in (up to Scottish national youth level), being coached by pro orchestral players doing music at uni for 2 years. I think that's the answer to the question you actually asked [/quote]
Yeah, pretty much. I learned them a long time ago (can't remember why) and never used them at all. Not even once. But my experience of classical music was a little basic really, so I was limited in how far I could apply my personal conclusion on note names.

[nello]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='458382' date='Apr 9 2009, 01:32 PM']Yes. And unless you plan learning music theory in Italian I don't think there's any point in learning the notes in Italian- I've never come across it being used in the orchestras I've played in (up to Scottish national youth level), being coached by pro orchestral players doing music at uni for 2 years. [/quote]


Until you need to go and play in an Italian Orchestra (or any sort of band, group etc). In italy a piece of music wouldn't be in 'C minor' but in 'DO minore' and the chord progression would go something like: DO maggiore, LA minore, FA maggiore, SOL maggiore settima and DO maggiore again.
I just think it can sometime be useful to know what the italian terms are, especially if you get the chance to play with italian musicians.

Nello

[dlloyd]

I've come across it, but never had to use it other than in solfege classes (so not in the last 20 years).

The German system was also fun, where Bb becomes B and B becomes H, and sharps and flats got their own names (Cis, Dis, Fis, Es, As, etc). Never needed to use it, just saw it in dual language clarinet study books.

[Eight]

[quote name='nello' post='487624' date='May 14 2009, 10:00 AM']Until you need to go and play in an Italian Orchestra (or any sort of band, group etc).[/quote]
Ah, this is part of what I was originally wondering. You've found that Italians (or atleast some) [i]do[/i] use these terms then?

Freaks.