Note Names

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='The Funk' post='458277' date='Apr 9 2009, 12:25 PM']Still makes sense there. There are six 'eighth' notes in the bar.[/quote]

yes, but what are they an eighth of? An eighth of the bar? An eighth of the beat? Calling them eighth's is redundant, they are only eighth notes in 4/4.

[quote name='SteveO' post='457392' date='Apr 8 2009, 02:06 PM']there's only 6 names in common usage for gods sake

Semibreve, minim, crotchet, quaver, semiquaver and demisemiquaver corresponding to whole, half, quarter, 8th, 16th and 32nd notes respectively.

you may come across a Breve in 16th century choral music, and the occasional hemidemisemiquaver (or worse) where the composer can't be bothered to rethink the tempo / time sig. If you want to really be pedantic there's only four names - Breve, minim, crotchet and quaver, with semi, demi and hemi prefixes to denote subdivisions. It's hardly a feat to remember them all. remembering the names of the notes of the chromatic scale takes 3 times as much memory


I recon it depends on what you are used to, I hate having to mentally convert from 'metric' names to real names when on the composing fora that I frequent, but the americans always whine when I don't convert back, so horses for courses and all that.[/quote]

+1

[bassace]

As I'm 'only the bass player' I use what terminology the other musos have and that is generally minims, crotchets, quavers etc. I could easily use quarters etc but have not had to yet. When I sang in a cathedral choir, a long time ago, I came across a breve. I threw it back in.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='bassace' post='487765' date='May 14 2009, 12:19 PM']When I sang in a cathedral choir, a long time ago, I came across a breve. I threw it back in.[/quote]

[nello]

[quote name='Eight' post='487735' date='May 14 2009, 11:57 AM']Ah, this is part of what I was originally wondering. You've found that Italians (or atleast some) [i]do[/i] use these terms then?

Freaks. [/quote]


Yes, I played with an italian band for many years and there wasn't anything like A, B, C etc. It was all LA, SI, DO etc. Maggiore (major) Minore(minor), Diesis (sharp), Bemolle (flat).

Nello

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='487755' date='May 14 2009, 12:09 PM']yes, but what are they an eighth of? An eighth of the bar? An eighth of the beat? Calling them eighth's is redundant, they are only eighth notes in 4/4.[/quote]
They're an eight of a whole note (semibreve), in every time signature.

[SteveO]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='489868' date='May 16 2009, 04:32 PM']They're an eight of a whole note (semibreve), in every time signature.[/quote]

I'm slowly getting drunk so I apologise for the pedantry and facetious nature of the following observation...

A whole note is a Breve. A semibreve is half that (semi-breve, geddit?). it just so happens to be 4 beats long which is a full bar in 4/4. That makes an 'eighth note' a sixteenth of a whole note. And they say that the 'merkin way is easier to understand?

I refer the learned member to my [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=45963&view=findpost&p=457392"]earlier remark[/url]

[velvetkevorkian]

Which is why I prefer to use crotchets, quavers etc- bypasses the whole issue!

[The Funk]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='487755' date='May 14 2009, 12:09 PM']yes, but what are they an eighth of? An eighth of the bar? An eighth of the beat? Calling them eighth's is redundant, they are only eighth notes in 4/4.[/quote]

6/8 <- see the 8 at the bottom? There are six of those in a bar of 6/8. It makes total sense to me.

In Indian music they'd just call it 6, which makes even more sense to me!

[Eight]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='490121' date='May 16 2009, 08:38 PM']Which is why I prefer to use crotchets, quavers etc- bypasses the whole issue! [/quote]
+1 I hate fractions.

Now, I'm sure I remember reading that once upon a time there was none of this 15 over 16 crapola. They used symbols to represent time signatures and I think we should bring that back.

(Anyone who's had more than one cup of coffee this morning will probably be screaming "common time"/"alla breve" at the screen. Since of course, we do have two of those symbols left).

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='The Funk' post='499535' date='May 28 2009, 01:26 AM']6/8 <- see the 8 at the bottom? There are six of those in a bar of 6/8. It makes total sense to me.

In Indian music they'd just call it 6, which makes even more sense to me![/quote]

so if there are 6 of them, shouldn't they be 6ths?

They are only 8ths when you have 8.

[Eight]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='499635' date='May 28 2009, 10:06 AM']They are only 8ths when you have 8.[/quote]
? They're all eighths of a semi-breve.

Edit: regardless of how many there are in a bar.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Eight

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='Eight' post='499640' date='May 28 2009, 10:11 AM']? They're all eighths of a semi-breve.

Edit: regardless of how many there are in a bar.[/quote]

but only in 4/4 do they have the value of an 8th. In 6/8 they have the value of a 6th.

I can see I'm fighting a losing battle here

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Eight' post='499589' date='May 28 2009, 08:46 AM']+1 I hate fractions.

Now, I'm sure I remember reading that once upon a time there was none of this 15 over 16 crapola. They used symbols to represent time signatures and I think we should bring that back.

(Anyone who's had more than one cup of coffee this morning will probably be screaming "common time"/"alla breve" at the screen. Since of course, we do have two of those symbols left).[/quote]

Mensural notation.

3/4 was represented by a full circle at one point. Stick a dot in the middle of it and it becomes 9/8. etc.

Gets very confusing, very quickly!

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Eight' post='499640' date='May 28 2009, 10:11 AM']? They're all eighths of a semi-breve.[/quote]

Apart from rests.

[Eight]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='499738' date='May 28 2009, 10:48 AM']but only in 4/4 do they have the value of an 8th. In 6/8 they have the value of a 6th.

I can see I'm fighting a losing battle here [/quote]
Yes, because you're applying a fraction to a different data set than everyone else.

It's the way the notation system currency works, and it isn't related to the meter of a particular track. (Ignoring triplets etc.)

A semibreve divides in half to create two minims.
A semibreve divides in quarters to create four crotchetts
A semibreve divides into eighths to create eight quavers.

Just like a pound divides into 100 pence. Always. Irrespective of how much money you have in your pocket.

[Eight]

A better question might be this...

If a semi breve (semi originally meaning half) is half of a breve (which it is). Why are the rest of the notes based on this and not based on the breve which would be the whole.

It should be

Whole note (breve)
Half note (semi-breve)
Quarter note (minim)
Eighth note (crotchett)
16th (quaver)
32th (semi quaver)
64th (demisemiquaver)
128th (hemidemisemiquaver)

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Eight' post='499840' date='May 28 2009, 01:35 PM']A better question might be this...

If a semi breve (semi originally meaning half) is half of a breve (which it is). Why are the rest of the notes based on this and not based on the breve which would be the whole.[/quote]

Because the people who came up with the whole note, half note system had never heard of a breve before.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='499635' date='May 28 2009, 10:06 AM']so if there are 6 of them, shouldn't they be 6ths?

They are only 8ths when you have 8.[/quote]

Not really... you're confusing straightforward maths with a 'term', an eighth is a description of duration and it has as much to do with how notes are grouped as anything eg 6/8 can be grouped as 2 3s or 3 2s giving an inner pulse to the bar, or a driving 8ths feel to a rock bassline, or a slow inner four with a triplet feel in 12/8 (one of my fave feels) The bottom number simply lets you know what the note looks like (ie stem with single tail) the top number tells you how many there are in a given bar.

For me the bottom line is that the terminology is irrelevant and not worth twisting knickers over, just be au fait with all of it then you can explain yourself well to all comers.

Edited May 28, 2009 by jakesbass

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='Eight' post='499829' date='May 28 2009, 01:27 PM']Yes, because you're applying a fraction to a different data set than everyone else.

It's the way the notation system currency works, and it isn't related to the meter of a particular track. (Ignoring triplets etc.)

A semibreve divides in half to create two minims.
A semibreve divides in quarters to create four crotchetts
A semibreve divides into eighths to create eight quavers.

Just like a pound divides into 100 pence. Always. Irrespective of how much money you have in your pocket. [/quote]

but that's my point you can't ignore triplets or you are ignoring triplet time and the values change. The value of an 8th should be constant, but obviously it isn't which is why 6 quaver beats to a bar makes sense to me.

Bearing in mind how some recent threads have gone, isn't nice that we can disagree and all be perfectly pleasant about it

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='499878' date='May 28 2009, 02:12 PM']Not really... you're confusing straightforward maths with a 'term', an eighth is a description of duration and it has as much to do with how notes are grouped as anything eg 6/8 can be grouped as 2 3s or 3 2s giving an inner pulse to the bar, or a driving 8ths feel to a rock bassline, or a slow inner four with a triplet feel in 12/8 (one of my fave feels) The bottom number simply lets you know what the note looks like (ie stem with single tail) the top number tells you how many there are in a given bar.

For me the bottom line is that the terminology is irrelevant and not worth twisting knickers over, just be au fait with all of it then you can explain yourself well to all comers.[/quote]

just seen this after I posted. I think we are using the same argument to argue a different point

[dlloyd]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='499754' date='May 28 2009, 12:13 PM']Apart from rests.[/quote]

Just to clarify what I said there (in case anyone actually picks up on it), semibreve rests almost always mean 'rest for a bar', rather than 'rest for four crotchets', regardless of the time signature.

In 4/4, a bar long rest is denoted by a semibreve rest.
In 3/4, a bar long rest is denoted by a semibreve rest. (even though there are less than 4 crotchets in the bar)
In 12/8, a bar long rest is denoted by a semibreve rest. (even though there are more than 4 crotchets in the bar)

The only exception is when the bar length is in multiples of a semibreve, when you'd use a breve rest.

[Eight]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='499879' date='May 28 2009, 01:13 PM']but that's my point you can't ignore triplets or you are ignoring triplet time and the values change. The value of an 8th should be constant, but obviously it isn't which is why 6 quaver beats to a bar makes sense to me.[/quote]
I'll accept that the time signatures for compound time seem a little weird. But if it (and it does - unless my proposal above is accepted) make sense to use an 8 for quavers (since there's supposed to be eight of them in a semibreve in simple time) and compound time is written in quavers then you have to still use 8 so it's clear that quavers are the basis.

If you used C,Q etc. instead of 4,8 et al it makes sense right?
6/Q, 3/C, 4/C

But then the non-itallian speakers would complain.

[quote]Bearing in mind how some recent threads have gone, isn't nice that we can disagree and all be perfectly pleasant about it [/quote]
Absolutely. Aside from anything else, there's no sense falling out over something we can't change.

Edit: And something which is fun to talk about but really doesn't matter that much.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Eight

[Eight]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='499860' date='May 28 2009, 12:53 PM']Because the people who came up with the whole note, half note system had never heard of a breve before.[/quote]
Who came up with the numeric time signatures though? Since e.g. 8 refers to its eighth status as part of a semibreve. Maybe that was done at the same time that the proper names for notes weren't good enough for someone? I don't know.

Can we all accept that my new numbering is a far better solution?

Proposal One:
Whole note (breve)
Half note (semi-breve)
Quarter note (minim)
Eighth note (crotchett)
16th (quaver)
32th (semi quaver)
64th (demisemiquaver)
128th (hemidemisemiquaver)

Or Proposal Two:
Everyone uses the proper names and time signatures are written as beats over note name e.g.
4/C - 4 crotchetts
3/Q - 3 quavers
2/M - 2 minims
2/S - 2 semibreves
2/er... S... - 2 semiquavers. f***! Er... Who uses 2/8 anyway!!!

Edited May 28, 2009 by Eight

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Eight' post='499916' date='May 28 2009, 02:53 PM']Who came up with the numeric time signatures though? Since e.g. 8 refers to its eighth status as part of a semibreve. Maybe that was done at the same time that the proper names for notes weren't good enough for someone? I don't know.[/quote]

True enough.

Here's the oldest score I could find with a time signature:



It's handwritten by Bach. It's in cut common time, but goes to 3/8 briefly.

So it was certainly in use in Europe by the early 18th century.

[dlloyd]

I found one by William Byrd, a hundred years or so earlier... no time signature and his staves had [b]six[/b] lines... crazy fool.

Here's something that's a bit earlier, with the mensural time signature for 3/4 (almost... there's actually no bar lines, but you're supposed to count in threes)