Epiphone EB-0, thoughts? (especially about neck dive)

[mcnach]

The problem with working from home is that when the delivery van calls, it's hard to not open the box straight away.

 

 

Just a quick picture, since 'no pic no bass'

 

I'm very impressed with the build quality and finish, I have to admit. I can't fault it, which is rare! The strings were loosened, and when I tuned it up it ended up being set with low action, zero buzz, very smooth to play. 

 

The first thing I did was check the balance/dive. Very nice sitting down, and with just a slight neck-pull when on a strap. It's also quite light, so the strap/weights trick will probably work very well. Prime candidate for a set of light tuners if I end up using this bass live, but the neck-dive is very minimal: I'm not in a hurry to do anything about it, which I'm happy about.

 

The thin neck and narrow string spacing is a little alien, and just as I remembered it. The strings seem pretty light too, probaby a 95-40 set (didn't get my digital caliper out), which adds to the 'alien' feeling. If I keep this bass it'll get a set of flat or tapewounds, and fatter too.

 

If I keep this bass?

 

No, I am keeping it!

 

But it needs a bit of work to bring it to where I want it to be. Yes, it's not all fantastic: it just doesn't have that deep sound I am after. I guess Epiphone have gone for more versatile electronics than trying to get that thump these basses are famous for. Which is funny because I remember playing those EB-3 and I thought they had it! It's been years so I may not remember very well, or perhaps there was some heavy outboard EQ going on.

 

It's a decent sound, but I'd describe it as a "EB-0 wants to sound like every other bass instead of doing its own thing". Quite bright in sound. With the tone rolled down all the way it's still far from where I'd want it to be.

I opened it up and it's got a standard modern 1 vol 1 tone type of wiring, with a 68nF capacitor. 

I will experiment with some higher value capacitors (I think I have some 100nF caps already in my drawer). No idea what the pot values are, the value is not stamped so I'll have to measure them myself.

I may be able to get closer to the sound I'm after if I use 250 K pots and experimenting with other capacitors... Very cheap, caps cost pennies and pots not a lot more.

 

But it looks like I'll be looking at a new pickup too if I want to get that sound. Fortunately the Artec replacements seem to be decent and cheap. But first I'll try to see what I can do with the original. I's a shame the DiMarzio DP120 (Model One) doesn't go for the 'mudbucker' sound either, as it looks really good... but I just can see I'd end up replacing all hardware in black next time I have too much time on my hands  

 

Anyway! Better get back to work... 

 

 

[shoulderpet]

17 hours ago, mcnach said:

 

That's another confusing aspect. I understand they have the sidewinder design, but their DC resistance measures at around 12 Kohm, rather than 30 Kohm.

In terms of sound, what are the implications? How would you compare both pickups? I know it's hard to describe sound...

 

I realise I may have never heard a 'real' mudbucker up close and personal, as I have only played less than a handful of Epi EB-3 (I do like their sound). 

I see that Artec have some proper mudbuckers and are cheap, but I read too many stories about hum too.

 

The Epiphone has a strange muddiness in the low mids but without the huge low end of the original mudbuckers, my personal opinion about neck pickups in the extreme neck position are that you either have to have them really overwound and beefy or you need a really defined pickup in that position, the Epiphone pickup is neither of those things and as a result it sounds a bit lacking

[goingdownslow]

22 hours ago, mcnach said:

 

You're right. Only made in 2009 according to this:

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20140131075803/http://epiphonewiki.com/index.php/EB-Series#Elitist_EB-3

The Epi Elitist EB3 was a different kettle of fish to the standard Epi, and cost a lot more.

[Stub Mandrel]

On 23/01/2022 at 13:35, mcnach said:

On and off for nearly a year now I find myself wanting that 'mudbucker' at the neck kind of sound.

 

I would have bought an Epiphone EB-3 if it wasn't because every single one I tried suffers from terrible neck dive. 

I've toyed with the idea of putting a mudbucker on one of my 'experiment' basses: I'd get a bass that I already like, with hopefully the kind of sound I'm looking for. But it seems too much of a faff, so I am not sure. At this point I just want to play and not routing etc.

 

Incredibly I just noticed that the EB-0 is actually short scale (30.5"), and not just the single pickup version of the EB-3. I think the short scale may actually alleviate enough the neck dive and I might enjoy it. I prefer long scale basses but having a little short scale bass is not a bad idea either.

 

Not finding any used ones locally, I might just order one new and see. They're only a bit over 200 quid.

 

Have you owned/played one? What are your thoughts about it?

 

 

I've played one, it was OK, but the sound isn't a patch on the basses with probuckers, plus an epi/gibbo without a set neck seems wrong.

 

Get an Embassy instead for far more guts and sonic versatility for not much more £££ - and good balance.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Stub Mandrel

[mcnach]

11 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

I've played one, it was OK, but the sound isn't a patch on the basses with probuckers, plus an epi/gibbo without a set neck seems wrong.

 

Get an Embassy instead for far more guts and sonic versatility for not much more £££ - and good balance.

 

Well, too late, got an EB0 already  (yeah, that was fast)

 

Those Embassy models are interesting but they're more Thunderbird-esque, aren't they?

Not going for versatility. I just want a deep thumping pickup right by the neck. The EB-0 is not bad, but these Epiphones seem to have lost a lot of the mud in an attempt to make them more 'normal'... losing their main point in the process. 

The plan was to try and return if it didn't meet my goals close enough... but I'm really liking it. The short scale really suits this design (unlike the long scale EB-3 I had tried before, this one doesn't drop its neck to the ground the minute you take your hands off it). Nah, I'm keeping it and will play around with it.

 

The wiring is quite different from what the various incarnations of EB-0 have had, so I'm going to experiment with that a bit since I can get a bunch of capacitors and a couple of pots for peanuts, and see what effect the different configurations have on the sound. If I am lucky and one of them gets me close to what I'm after, then job done. If not, at least I'll get a sense for what the different wiring configurations do (they're quite unusual) and will find a pickup somewhere. At the moment the Artec at just over £30 looks like a winner.

 

 

[mcnach]

Oh, and I do like bolt-on necks. It's my preference, although never a deal breaker.

[Andyjr1515]

18 hours ago, mcnach said:

I's a shame the DiMarzio DP120 (Model One) doesn't go for the 'mudbucker' sound either, as it looks really good... but I just can see I'd end up replacing all hardware in black next time I have too much time on my hands

It is a fabulous pickup IMHO.  With the right cap on, it can certainly get into the right muddy spectrum

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, mcnach said:

The wiring is quite different from what the various incarnations of EB-0 have had, so I'm going to experiment with that a bit since I can get a bunch of capacitors and a couple of pots for peanuts, and see what effect the different configurations have on the sound. If I am lucky and one of them gets me close to what I'm after, then job done. If not, at least I'll get a sense for what the different wiring configurations do (they're quite unusual) and will find a pickup somewhere. At the moment the Artec at just over £30 looks like a winner.

 

In what way? IIRC all the fancy wiring options were on the EB3 variants.

 

After all there's not a lot you can change with one pickup, volume and tone controls.

[mcnach]

55 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

In what way? IIRC all the fancy wiring options were on the EB3 variants.

 

After all there's not a lot you can change with one pickup, volume and tone controls.

 

Not talking about 'fancy' switching, varitone etc, but this, for example (60s wiring).

It's still very simple but not your usual volume-tone passive wiring as on a Precision, for example. I'm not sure what that does to the sound but it's trivial to wire it and see. 

 

 

More info about EB-0 wiring over the years:

https://www.flyguitars.com/gibson/bass/EB0_circuit.php

[Stub Mandrel]

3 hours ago, mcnach said:

 

Not talking about 'fancy' switching, varitone etc, but this, for example (60s wiring).

It's still very simple but not your usual volume-tone passive wiring as on a Precision, for example. I'm not sure what that does to the sound but it's trivial to wire it and see. 

 

 

More info about EB-0 wiring over the years:

https://www.flyguitars.com/gibson/bass/EB0_circuit.php

 

Well the 0.01uF cap adds that mud you want 🙂

 

The probuckers have huge bottom end, I'm finding I have to slightly raise the treble and mids, oehrwise I only get bottom end cutting through in a  band situation.

[BigRedX]

The 0.01µF cap is filtering off quite a bit of the top end before you start turning down the tone control. It will also add a slight resonant hump at the cut-off frequency.

 

Of course the whole circuit should be balanced against the impedance of the 60s Gibson pickup, so if the "mudbucker" in the Epiphone isn't the same design, that circuit won't have the same effect.

[mcnach]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

The 0.01µF cap is filtering off quite a bit of the top end before you start turning down the tone control. It will also add a slight resonant hump at the cut-off frequency.

 

Of course the whole circuit should be balanced against the impedance of the 60s Gibson pickup, so if the "mudbucker" in the Epiphone isn't the same design, that circuit won't have the same effect.

 

The Epiphone pickup does have the sidewinder design, like a mudbucker, but that's where the similarity ends and you're right, they won't work as intended initially. A little experimentation with capacitors is cheap and easy. I'm curious as to how this tone control design works on this. If I find I don't like it, a usual "Precision" style wiring will do, I just need to replace the original cap (68nF) for a higher value, and use 250K pots rather than the 500K that seem to be installed here.

[mcnach]

4 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Well the 0.01uF cap adds that mud you want 🙂

 

The probuckers have huge bottom end, I'm finding I have to slightly raise the treble and mids, oehrwise I only get bottom end cutting through in a  band situation.

 

This bass will probably only be used in a dub/reggae setting, in that style I think it could work well?

[shoulderpet]

12 minutes ago, mcnach said:

 

This bass will probably only be used in a dub/reggae setting, in that style I think it could work well?

Whilst I would definitely encourage you to try different value capacitors I really think a proper mudbucker will be your golden ticket, there something about a massively overwound pickup that you cannot really mimic with a different kind of pickup

[mcnach]

Artec mudbucker ordered. 

 

 

[shoulderpet]

9 minutes ago, mcnach said:

Artec mudbucker ordered. 

 

 

You know it makes sense 👍

[goingdownslow]

On 27/01/2022 at 12:17, mcnach said:

Artec mudbucker ordered. 

 

 

I never had much success with mine. Came with the magnets in the wrong orientation... slightly wider string spacing... although it had the same dc resistance as a Gibson mudbucker it did not have that sound.

[mcnach]

21 hours ago, goingdownslow said:

I never had much success with mine. Came with the magnets in the wrong orientation... slightly wider string spacing... although it had the same dc resistance as a Gibson mudbucker it did not have that sound.

 

Yeah, I saw on TalkBass that quite a few people had teh same issue. It seems to be a bit of a lottery. Hopefully they'd have fixed that by now. The good news is that it seems pretty easy to repair. It's a shame there aren't many other options, and the ones that are there are crazy expensive.

 

I tried the bass, stock, at volume... and that pickup has to go. Playing relatively quietly at home it was not amazing but I could make it work. However as soon as the volume goes up... there's something strange with the bottom end, it just sounds anemic. 

 

Artec pickup will take a couple of weeks to arrive, 'though. I hope it is better than the stock one. 

[Henrythe8]

Following. Just received a second hand EB0. 

Although I wanted a short scale bass to mess around with, I'll finally put some other pickup in and convert into a piccolo bass. 

 

[Stub Mandrel]

I';ve just been offered a good deal on an EB-3.

 

My brother is going to pick it up for me so I can check it out.

[mcnach]

Still waiting for the Artec pickup.

Meanwhile I decided to get crazy and also get a replacement bridge (wider spacing) and light tuners to hopefully make it balance a little better. In black. Definitely not my best investment in terms of £££  but you only live once and I'm really liking the short scale vibe. 

I've loved the SG design since I first started interested in guitars. My brother's first guitar was an SG, so I didn't have to buy one 😛 and for many years I kept wanting an EB-0/3. Sometimes it doesn't have to make financial sense!

 

Capacitors and new pots arrived, as did a set of D'Addario black nylon tapewounds. New bridge is here. Tuners arrive tomorrow. Of course, this weekend I'm too busy to do anything about it, typical

 

 

[pbelly]

I blagged one for free when I bought my Thunderbird from Guitar Guitar. Tried for an EB3 but no chance. Big chip in the headstock (definite neck dive accident, and probably why the gave it to me), but otherwise really decent for nowt. The only thing I will say is watch for the bridge screws popping out - happened to me. Not all the way but scary non the less. I just glued it back in and all is well again.

[mcnach]

4 hours ago, pbelly said:

I blagged one for free when I bought my Thunderbird from Guitar Guitar. Tried for an EB3 but no chance. Big chip in the headstock (definite neck dive accident, and probably why the gave it to me), but otherwise really decent for nowt. The only thing I will say is watch for the bridge screws popping out - happened to me. Not all the way but scary non the less. I just glued it back in and all is well again.

 

At that price I'd have two, please!

 

[Stub Mandrel]

On 02/02/2022 at 15:38, Stub Mandrel said:

I';ve just been offered a good deal on an EB-3.

 

My brother is going to pick it up for me so I can check it out.

 

Took it to rehearsal.

 

Well, it was a limited editions Epiphone Custom Shop one - not sure what was different aside from the tug bar.

 

Looks absolutely glorious, but weighs a tone and still has some neck dive (I could cope if I really liked it). The mudbucker was just too dark and thumpy for me.

 

Afraid I swapped back to my Embassy which is a lot lighter, better balanced and sounded way better.

 

The band agreed the EB3 looked incredible, but the neck pickup just didn't sound right. Might be OK for a Cream tribute. 😞

[pbelly]

2 hours ago, mcnach said:

 

At that price I'd have two, please!

 

Ha ha. And here they are. Really like the EB-O. Great for classic rock n roll vibes (suffragette city anyone??). The Bird is sublime however, and as a bonus, the bridge hasn't raised up like a zombie from the ground yet either 🤣