The dreaded decibel meter

[Downunderwonder]

17 minutes ago, jimmyb625 said:

Pales into insignificance compared to the old PIA 747, which used to struggle to meet minimum altitude...

 

This was the source:

https://www.chem.purdue.edu/chemsafety/Training/PPETrain/dblevels.htm

 

The aircraft noise levels come from 1992, which still had the old turbojets running around.

 

Another entry at 96dB is lawnmower.

 

I still think 96dB is pretty darn loud in polite company!

 

Awhile ago I played a 50th birthday with 210 cab pretty well turned up. The drums were not mic'd and he was very sensitive player. High energy guitarist vocalist had a 212 cab with one of those Tiny Terror Orange things all of 12W. Vocal PA. That was loud enough to get the dancefloor going and knocking hard on 96dB at the stage I would say. At far end of the room they could still talk, so there were two parties going on with nobody in the middle.

 

All in all I wouldn't expect that to be too loud for a wedding venue.

 

Again, it depends on where the meter is set up and how rowdy the crowd gets.

[Bassfinger]

Are the venue even trained in the correct use of this device, know what angle to hold it with respect to the sound source, and at what distance? Has the meter ever been calibrated?

 

Just going out and buying a meter doesnt really get them any closer to correctly measuring SPL.

 

Also, the apparent volume will be different in an empty venue with reflections than it will in a full venue with losts of carbon based life forms soaking up your sound (and making a lot of noise of their own).

 

Unless they've done a lot of homework and some proper training this all sounds a bit arbitrary. 

 

I don't know about you, but we regularly turn down gigs as we are offered far more than we can do. This would be one we'd probably turn down as too much hassle, and I'd put the word out on the local circuit about them - they might not be so picky when no one wants to play there.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Bassfinger
Suddenly went deaf

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

1 minute ago, Bassfinger said:

Are the venue even trained in the correct use of this device, know what angle to hold it with respectmto the sound source, and at what distance? Has the meter ever been calibrated.

 

Just going out and buying a meter doesnt really get them any closer to correctly measuring SPL.

It won't be a hand held device at the venue. The main panel will be fixed to the wall, usually with the receiver hanging off something near the middle of the room.

Calibrated? You would assume so, but by whom, whether accurate and if in date is anyone's guess.

This is also going to be the sort of venue that will require PAT stickers up your wazoo @scalpy.

Easily solved if you know who to ask.

[Bassfinger]

So dangling from the ceiling...will they be taking a tape measure to each speaker qnd calculating the mean distance, and the angle with resoect to the mic's directional characteristics (no mic is genuinely omnidirectional in all planes).

 

I have a little bit of experience of this with very large machinery, and to do it properly with reproducable results that actually mean something takes a bit of science and methodology. Just dangling a microphone or shoving one on a stand in some randonly chosen spot in a room is a nonsense.

 

And then to do it a day beforehand is a joke.  On a good day it takes us an hour to set up and set levels, plus travelling time...thats 2 or 3 hours no one gets paid for, plus fuel costs for eqch band member.

 

I'd  be inclined to politely tell them that they are more hassle than they are worth, tell thnem why, and decline the gig. You can bet the person demanding this won't turn up for free on a day off, spend time and fuel money, to have his work checked over so why should you? 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Bassfinger
Declined to submit my post a day beforehand

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

There last place I played with a decibel meter was only recently on 22/1.

It was on the back wall just to to the left of the drummer. I think the receiver was incorporated into the main box as most of them seem to be nowadays.

The drummer hit his snare whilst we were setting up and it went fully into the red with a single strike.

When we started playing it went as high as it could go and stayed there until we stopped. Clearly not switched on thankfully.

[mrtcat]

Noise limiters are pretty much the norm at wedding venues, especially the newer ones. You either work with it or don't do as many weddings. 

We do over 100 a year and probably about 50 have a limiter of some form, 20 have a zone array system or similar (you plug your mixer into their system and it squashes all the life out of it to get you under their limit) and half a dozen will only allow pre approved bands. We have two venues where we have had to do the daytime sound check weeks ahead of the wedding so they can approve us. Both of those are in Northamptonshire where we are based because we wouldn't go farther afield for an unpaid sound check. The up side is that we get a lot of bookings at these local venues. The down side is that it sounds pretty average for the punters. 

Especially you need electric kit and in ears if you want to enjoy playing these gigs. 

To the op I'd say dont dismiss it if the venue is nearby. It could lead to more work on your doorstep which, with the rise in fuel prices, might be a godsend.

No matter what the bride tells you, she will have been made aware that they only allow bands that will sound check ahead of the date at the time of booking. These venues may not care about bands but they do care about the reviews they get and won't be dropping bombshells on their customers.

Anyone refusing to work with limiters in the wedding industry will see their work dropping off as these become more and more common.

[SH73]

I think my lawn mower has a sticker on it it's 95 dB, I better check. On the serious note, whenever I go to a gig I take earplugs especially arena or stadium gigs. Surely it's easy to trip the meter if a playing band has punters in the background then add all other sounds such as general talking, serving drink, door slamming and walking etc. That dB meter will not give accurate reading unless you play in a totally sound proved chamber. The venue probably doesn't care and they don't even have a clue how dB works and sound waves travel etc. Have you considered showing them some scientific research on dB to prove your point? 

[EBS_freak]

2 hours ago, Bassfinger said:

Are the venue even trained in the correct use of this device, know what angle to hold it with respect to the sound source, and at what distance? Has the meter ever been calibrated?

 

None of that matters. They are in control of what happens in their venue and they determine that with the gear they have and are happy using and interpreting in whatever manner they like.

 

2 hours ago, Bassfinger said:

So dangling from the ceiling...will they be taking a tape measure to each speaker qnd calculating the mean distance, and the angle with resoect to the mic's directional characteristics (no mic is genuinely omnidirectional in all planes).

 

I have a little bit of experience of this with very large machinery, and to do it properly with reproducable results that actually mean something takes a bit of science and methodology. Just dangling a microphone or shoving one on a stand in some randonly chosen spot in a room is a nonsense.

 

If the mic for the limiter is dangling and installed incorrectly... is it actually going to be any use to you knowing this? Are they going to pay attention to anything you say about that? That's their measure, end of. Anything other comments are not going to get you onside.  

 

Think about it, you wouldn't thank anybody for commenting upon your technique when playing, or how you have set your PA. Bands are mostly an annoyance to venues as it's an element they have limited control over. Work WITH venues, not against them.

[Greg Edwards69]

11 hours ago, iconic said:

We live close to a pub that has live music, since last 5 years or so.

 

We love it, even more so when a decent bass player turns up😉but, understandably other neighbours don't. One man's music is another mans relentless noise and invasion of their privacy. The licence was granted with strict conditions. 

 

The pubs music licence is looking like it will be pulled, too many bands have bypassed the noise limiter, with the permission or otherwise of a DPS, outside doors left open etc in all the excitement.

It's immediately noticeable when the limiter is bypassed, even to us and we aren't next door or, if we are at the pub it's a case of shouting into a cupped hand into an ear to be heard for only as long as we can stand..... just the ammo the neighbours have needed to get the licence revoked.

 

Doesn't matter to the bands doing it, they don't give a flying f*ck, just another gig. The real shame is that there are precious few venues left around these parts so it hurts everybody with an interest in live music.

I'm willing to bet that most pubs have been where they are than most residents living near by. There's on pub we used to play at that I believe has been there since 1912. We played there once very humid summer's evening and the aircon wasn't working (thank goodness for baby powder).  The landlord told us he couldn't open the windows because of complaints.  He later told us there's one particular neighbour (bearing in mind this pub is on a busy highstreet, even at night with the other bars and restaurants) who recently moved into the area. Even when bands aren't playing they complain to the pub and the council about the noise (they even complained about the flowers in the hanging baskets outside the pub setting off their hay fever).

 

The landlord got so fed up with the constant complaints that he moved on to a mother pub and the subsequent landlords haven't booked bands in since.

 

If you don't like noise, don't move to within spitting distance of a well established pub.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Greg Edwards69

[Happy Jack]

2 hours ago, mrtcat said:

 

 

On 02/02/2022 at 07:09, scalpy said:

The venue has a limit of 96dB. As we are not on their list of recommended bands they want us to go and sound check at some point before the event on a day of their choosing between office hours.  None of us can do that because of day jobs. They also want the client to sign a disclaimer that if we trip the meter it’s on us.

 

On 02/02/2022 at 08:03, scalpy said:

The venue are suggesting that if we trip the meter it’s game over for us playing and the bride’s party stops there. We don’t want to let her down but neither can we accommodate all the venues demands either. 

 

2 hours ago, mrtcat said:

Noise limiters are pretty much the norm at wedding venues, especially the newer ones. You either work with it or don't do as many weddings. 

We do over 100 a year and probably about 50 have a limiter of some form, 20 have a zone array system or similar (you plug your mixer into their system and it squashes all the life out of it to get you under their limit) and half a dozen will only allow pre approved bands. We have two venues where we have had to do the daytime sound check weeks ahead of the wedding so they can approve us. Both of those are in Northamptonshire where we are based because we wouldn't go farther afield for an unpaid sound check. The up side is that we get a lot of bookings at these local venues. The down side is that it sounds pretty average for the punters. 

Especially you need electric kit and in ears if you want to enjoy playing these gigs. 

To the op I'd say dont dismiss it if the venue is nearby. It could lead to more work on your doorstep which, with the rise in fuel prices, might be a godsend.

No matter what the bride tells you, she will have been made aware that they only allow bands that will sound check ahead of the date at the time of booking. These venues may not care about bands but they do care about the reviews they get and won't be dropping bombshells on their customers.

Anyone refusing to work with limiters in the wedding industry will see their work dropping off as these become more and more common.

 

The main thrust of the discussion seems to have veered towards the rights & wrongs of sound limiters and playing at low (sensible) volumes, but that would not be my concern in this situation.

 

I have no problem working with sound limits and I personally hate overly loud bands anyway, but that doesn't mean that I'd be prepared to insist that my band gives up an afternoon's work/pay in order to - effectively - audition for the venue, still less take full responsibility for anything going wrong.

 

The venue will be earning serious money from this event. They want my band to play for them (i.e. audition for their sound limited to get onto their approved list)? Fine, they can pay for that. They don't want to pay? Fine, sex & travel.

 

[Doddy]

Like I've said before, asking for an advanced soundcheck sucks, but I almost can't blame the venue for being cautious.  So many comments are coming with a "F You!" attitude, and venues/planners/brides, don't need that. Wedding bands charge the money they do to deal with hassle like this and to cooperate with everyone involved. 

It's a shame that venues and wedding planners have to be tools sometimes but unfortunately, too many bands have brought it on themselves. Once bitten...and all that.

[Leonard Smalls]

I used to book bands a number of years ago for our local "traditional" festival; gigs were to take place in a 500 capacity village hall. We had a wide variety of bands ranging from The Wurzels to Wilko Johnson and The Oysterband...

The village hall committee were at best, difficult; one year (when Wilko was playing) they chained the kitchen cupboards shut so we couldn't use plates or cutlery! They also insisted on the use of a limiter, set at 90dB C weighted with the mic about 6 feet from the left PA stack. Not only that, but whoever had wired it in had only 2 sockets on stage, both connected to the limiter. This meant max possible on-stage power was just over 6kW,to include PA, backline and lights! This was before the widespread use of LEDs so the lights were more than 3kW on their own! And our PA was about 10kW too - we were believers in a quality sound, not loud but very clean, which meant headroom. However,just an unamplified gentle tap on a bass drum would set the limiter off...

So we mentioned the lack of facilities to the hall comm- they said it was a council requirement,and their tame electrician pronounced our PA "too bloody loud, shouldn't need more than 1kW in there!" (for he knew all about these things).

We actually asked the council, who said that they didn't require the limiter, as it was a historic thing based on a number of rather noisy and violent raves many years earlier. Comm insisted we used the 2 supplied sockets...

So we agreed. However, both the sound engineer and I were electricians; we ran a length of 10mm SWA cable directly from a 63A RCBO in the consumer unit (it had the capacity, and was 3 phase), gave it a test and removed it at the end of the evening. We did this for all 8 years I was involved in the festival without the comm knowing, and without any complaints either from inside or outside the venue!

[Greg Edwards69]

2 hours ago, Leonard Smalls said:

And our PA was about 10kW too - we were believers in a quality sound, not loud but very clean, which meant headroom. However,just an unamplified gentle tap on a bass drum would set the limiter off...

So we mentioned the lack of facilities to the hall comm- they said it was a council requirement,and their tame electrician pronounced our PA "too bloody loud, shouldn't need more than 1kW in there!" (for he knew all about these things).

It's as if they didn't realise these things have volume controls.  A Ferrari can drive just as slowly as a 2CV if you need it to.

[Leonard Smalls]

13 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

these things have volume controls

 

Indeed!

I tried to explain to him the concepts of headroom and distortion, and the idea that bass frequencies need more power - even when I pointed to the big bass driver and said "big thing need big power" he still didn't get it.

[ambient]

I didn’t realise places still had these. I remember as a kid going with my parents most Saturday evenings to a social club, they always had bands on. I loved it, many of them would trip the sound level meter and go silent for a few seconds.

[Downunderwonder]

Offer to meet them halfway. Tell them you are used to playing social gatherings where people need to talk. You will put some of your lights on their circuit and if it goes dark you will turn it all down some more but you don't expect that will be necessary as you are professionals. You know what 96dB sounds like but you don't want to risk your amps having their power cut.

[mrtcat]

19 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Offer to meet them halfway. Tell them you are used to playing social gatherings where people need to talk. You will put some of your lights on their circuit and if it goes dark you will turn it all down some more but you don't expect that will be necessary as you are professionals. You know what 96dB sounds like but you don't want to risk your amps having their power cut.

Sadly they're unlikely to go for that. There are lots of bands out there that are prepared to work with noise limiters and do so regularly who will happily do the gig on the venue's terms and the venue know this.

[mrtcat]

These are the ones that make me chuckle the most when we get them. Sounds like an incredible system on paper but in reality they sound worse than a pair of old wharfdales. Designed to completely compress the sound with brick wall limiters that suck the life out of everything. The bride and groom will have been told that the venue has an awesome set up and that any failure to sound amazing is entirely the band's fault. 

[EBS_freak]

You too eh?

 

 

If you google all the systems there, we are talking some seriously good gear. And then it's all null and void because of that brick wall limiter.

Edited February 4, 2022 by EBS_freak

[Downunderwonder]

If you don't run it into the limiter does it sound ok, just too quiet?

[Downunderwonder]

1 hour ago, mrtcat said:

These are the ones that make me chuckle the most when we get them. Sounds like an incredible system on paper but in reality they sound worse than a pair of old wharfdales. Designed to completely compress the sound with brick wall limiters that suck the life out of everything. The bride and groom will have been told that the venue has an awesome set up and that any failure to sound amazing is entirely the band's fault. 

You haven't finished redacting the venue.

[EBS_freak]

24 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

If you don't run it into the limiter does it sound ok, just too quiet?

This is for bands that don't run with any backline. So you'll just have the sound of an electric kit being bashed acoustically... and the singers...

[Downunderwonder]

33 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

This is for bands that don't run with any backline. So you'll just have the sound of an electric kit being bashed acoustically... and the singers...

I meant push the mixed output of everyone so hard it hits (runs into) the limiter all the time.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Downunderwonder

[Downunderwonder]

And your venue name is still there in the second page.

[EBS_freak]

Do you want a biscuit too?