Busy playing vs self confidence

[Grimalkin]

Jamerson/Parker/Coltrane et al, all played in a non-repetitive style. One of the things with your average overplayer, is that they end up repeating themselves very quickly. The same licks, in different songs.

[Obrienp]

Interesting thread this. Personally, I think over-playing is a problem when you move to bass from guitar (it may be a problem for people who never played guitar too). Like others have said, it is a different instrument with a different role. Somehow I have ended moving back to bass from guitar over the last 6 years or so. Originally I overplayed terribly, because my reflex was to put tags and fills in every time the singer paused for breath, and to get as busy as the guitarists during solos. Now that may be fine, if you are good enough to hit root exactly on time to maintain the groove and move with the chord changes but if it causes you to be late on that beat, or chord change, you are sabotaging the band. Better to pedal on root than miss the groove and changes. Also everybody in the band tagging, filling and twiddling frantically makes it really hard for the audience to follow: there is just too much going on and it may not all be pulling in the same direction.

 

I think the line up and genre of the band also influences how the bassist should play. If you are playing bass in a band with keys, brass, guitars, etc, your job is to hold down the groove with the drummer, the mix is already full enough with other instruments . If you are in a power rock/blues 3 piece, you have got to fill up a lot more of the mix, especially when the guitarist is soloing. That is not to say you compete with the guitarist’s solo but you need to fill that space underneath them where their chords were and match their dynamics. I was listening to the remastered version of Led Zep 1 & 2 the other day and you can really hear how JPJ was doing this: it was a master class.

 

I now play in two bands with rhythm and lead guitarists (and harmonica in one of them). I have learnt to keep it simple stupid: maintain the groove, match the dynamics and occasionally they throw you a bone: you get to start a number, or you get a solo fill. I have a long way to go still but I feel I am becoming a bassist, rather than a guitarist with a bass in his hands.

[TimR]

It's usually quite easy to spot a guitarist playing a bass.

 

The traditional roll of the bass is to underpin the chords, whether that be by playing roots, or harmonies and counterpoint. 

 

Overplaying to my mind is playing notes that don't actually add to the arrangement but detract from it. Unless the idea is for the bass to be more melodic, in which case it needs to be melodic, rather than playing random runs and fills. 

 

I went to see It Bites a couple of times a few years ago. To me Lee Pomeroy nailed the bass role, but I found Nathan King to be too busy. I later found out that bass isn't King's first instrument. 

[chris_b]

2 hours ago, Obrienp said:

. . . .  If you are in a power rock/blues 3 piece, you have got to fill up a lot more of the mix, especially when the guitarist is soloing.

 

No you don't.

 

You can stretch out if you have something to say, but playing more or changing your sound just to fill out the sound is not a good thing to do.

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

 

No you don't.

 

You can stretch out if you have something to say, but playing more or changing your sound just to fill out the sound is not a good thing to do.

 

This is litterally geddy lees reason for playing more notes the way he does. Would rather listen to a geddy lee over a root and fifths guy every day.

 

And yes, if you go and see a three piece, the guitar goes for a solo and the bottom drops out of the song unless the bass picks it up.

[Steve Browning]

This will always be an unresolved argument, as it's entirely subjective. We all have our preferences and that's perfectly fine.

 

It may be that people do, indeed, overplay at first. Maybe, when they find their own voice, they will play less - maybe more. We're all different.

[TimR]

I'd suggest if someone feels the music is empty and they're not confident or experienced, then they will play more notes, play louder, more quickly and add effects in an effort to cover what may or may not need filling. 

 

But the reverse isn't true, someone playing like that doesn't mean its because they're less confident or inexperienced, quite often it'll be because they're overconfident.

[dclaassen]

50 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

This is litterally geddy lees reason for playing more notes the way he does. Would rather listen to a geddy lee over a root and fifths guy every day.

 

And yes, if you go and see a three piece, the guitar goes for a solo and the bottom drops out of the song unless the bass picks it up.

Playing in a trio is more difficult, because both of these things may be true depending on the song, guitarist, drummer, etc. When I am in a larger group, I don't really have to be concerned as much with filling in missing parts. When with a trio, it's something that is always lurking out there....it IS lots of fun, though!

[Doddy]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

 

This is litterally geddy lees reason for playing more notes the way he does. Would rather listen to a geddy lee over a root and fifths guy every day.

 

And yes, if you go and see a three piece, the guitar goes for a solo and the bottom drops out of the song unless the bass picks it up.

Not everyone is Geddy Lee though. How many times do you hear bass players try to go off under a solo, and the derrière drops out and it becomes aimless noodling?

 

Personally I think it's often better to play simpler with a big tone in a trio. I find I can play busier in a bigger band.

[Woodinblack]

44 minutes ago, Doddy said:

Not everyone is Geddy Lee though. How many times do you hear bass players try to go off under a solo, and the derrière drops out and it becomes aimless noodling?

 

Pretty rare. Normally when I see a band in a pub the solo goes off and the bottom drops out of the sound. But some bass players will take up the slack. I have heard fewer cases of the latter sound bad than the former.

 

44 minutes ago, Doddy said:

Personally I think it's often better to play simpler with a big tone in a trio. I find I can play busier in a bigger band.

 

My experience is the opposite.

[chris_b]

11 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

And yes, if you go and see a three piece, the guitar goes for a solo and the bottom drops out of the song unless the bass picks it up.

 

Only if there was no bottom to start with. 

 

The guitar shouldn't be providing the "bottom end" anyway so when the rhythm parts stop and the solo begins, the mids and top, ie guitar frequencies, should be the only thing that changes. 

 

I have only seen Geddy Lee briefly, but long enough to know that I'm not a fan of his style. The big trios from back in the day, Cream, ZZ Top, Jeff Beck Group, Hendrix and even Led Zep, none of them "filled" up the sound with bass when the guitarist started soloing.

 

If the bass needs to fill out the sound during solos then something is fundamentally wrong with the sound of the band in the first place.

[Woodinblack]

23 minutes ago, chris_b said:

I have only seen Geddy Lee briefly, but long enough to know that I'm not a fan of his style.

 

So we are probably never going to agree.

 

23 minutes ago, chris_b said:

The big trios from back in the day, Cream, ZZ Top, Jeff Beck Group, Hendrix and even Led Zep, none of them "filled" up the sound with bass when the guitarist started soloing.

 

No, they were pretty busy in the first place. Ie, when you said that led zep was on and JPJ is what people would describe as busy. Maybe he lacked confidence?

 

 

23 minutes ago, chris_b said:

If the bass needs to fill out the sound during solos then something is fundamentally wrong with the sound of the band in the first place.

 

Well, I think zep and rush worked out just fine.

 

[TimR]

It all depends how much the guitarist is playing with a sound that works in a band setting, and how much they're playing with 'their tone'.

 

If its the latter, the bass will have to be EQd so that the mids cut through as the guitarist will probably be far too bass heavy.

 

If you manage to get a guitarist to understand that the bass has the bass covered and he needs to EQ to suit the band, then you shouldn't need to do anything else. Good luck with that. 

[Lozz196]

Another thing to think about on the three piece thing is that the bass wasn’t today’s deep down bass, with the bass frequencies being higher. Coupling this with the natural valve drive and the same busy playing as in verses there was less separation of sounds. Whilst I love the scooped Sansamp sound it certainly noticed when a solo starts if there’s only one guitar, suddenly there’s nothing in the middle.

[gjones]

I'm still trying to get to that Zen like state, of not too much and not too little.

 

As a bass player, I think the audience and the band you play with, in most genres, appreciate groove and feel above speed and the number of notes you play.

[Chris2112]

On 06/02/2022 at 11:17, ossyrocks said:

 

I feel some of the busy players I’ve gigged with over the years similarly lacked a degree of self confidence  and held a degree of self doubt, even struggled with their mental health,  and perhaps used bravado on gigs to mask it.

 

 

 

I think you're projecting your own thoughts and feelings into your perception of these 'busy' players. Ultimately, busy or not, just play the music as it's meant to be played and no-one will fuss. You won't play Rocco Prestia 16th notes over a plodding ballad and you wouldn't pluck whole notes all night in a ToP covers band. 

 

If anything, I think it is often players who claim to be 'groove' players or those who say 'I just serve the song' who lack confidence because often they don't have the ability to do anything more or even try to come up something different. They don't know the notes in the chord they're playing over or how to subdivide the beat so they say things like 'I try to build a hypnotic groove' to cover the fact that they're just playing the same thing over and over 🤣

 

[Paul S]

7 hours ago, Chris2112 said:

 

If anything, I think it is often players who claim to be 'groove' players or those who say 'I just serve the song' who lack confidence because often they don't have the ability to do anything more or even try to come up something different. They don't know the notes in the chord they're playing over or how to subdivide the beat so they say things like 'I try to build a hypnotic groove' to cover the fact that they're just playing the same thing over and over 🤣

 

 

Yup, that's me.

 

[Lozz196]

It`s funny that seeing as my fave bassists are known for their runs and intricate lines that, although I can play stuff like that, I prefer to sit in the groove and lock with the drums. But then thinking about it, as I`m a "cat person" as in someone who is happy to remain still for 16hrs and only move when I have the need to eat or urinate maybe it`s not that unexpected after all.

[Musicman666]

Less is more…

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

 move when I have the need to eat or urinate

 

Oh get you, how posh is that

 

[TimR]

This should be pretty simple if you're playing in covers band. 

 

Copy the original line fairly closely.

 

If your arrangement is not working becasue you're missing instrumentation in your band, listen to what those instruments would be playing. Work out if they're really  essential parts of the arrangement or just nice to have. Decide which other instrument will cover that part.

 

If it's the original bass line that's tough to copy, you have to make a decision on what to play instead.

 

[Rich]

On 07/02/2022 at 09:25, Paul S said:

I really dislike overplaying.  I once shared a gig with a soul band and the bass player overplayed his way through the entire set.  Huge player and technically miles better than I could ever hope to be but, for me, his eagerness to show off his chops ruined the gig.

 

 

This entirely. There is a BIG difference between busy and overly-busy. If the song can carry busy playing, then go for it. If by being busy you're going to bust the groove or tread on others' toes, then back off.

I saw a jazz combo down at the Old Duck** in Bristol one night, the bassist had a nice old Jazz and my first impression was that he could really play, but it became apparent that he just didn't know when to stop. He took a solo, which was very impressive, but he just kept doing it. He widdled away all over the sax solo, he even kept on in the drum solo when all I wanted was for him to STFU. After a couple of songs my opinion of him had totally changed, and I just wanted him to stick his nice old Jazz where the sun didn't shine.

 

** as all you Brizzlers will know, its actual name is the Old Duke... but I had a Brazilian friend some years ago who called it 'Duck' and it's kind of stuck.

 

On 06/02/2022 at 14:07, EBS_freak said:

I with Doddy on this - there's a difference in playing busily and playing busily and grooving like a MF.

 

Here's my exhibit A for busy but absolutely smashing a home run because you have your musicality and skills all suitably honed rather than playing around with pentatonic nonsense.

 

 

 

I agree.

For my money one of the greatest recorded basslines of all time. See my previous comment: "if the song can carry busy playing, then go for it".

Edited February 8, 2022 by Rich

[Bilbo]

I think there is something about context here, as others have already acknowledged. Being a busy player only matters when the player is allowed to improvise some or all of the parts required. If you were playing a Bach Cello Suite, there is no room for extra notes. If you are playing in a totally free setting, you have infinite options. In reality, most music is somewhere between these extremes. 

 

During most musical performances that require a degree of improvised playing (i.e. where a bass player is not playing a fully composed part), the musicians are engaged in some form of dialogue, with an element of call and response between the parties involved. The number of notes played is completely immaterial. It is the context that matters. Are the notes, be it 1 or 1000, congruent and logical. Do they fit? If they do, it won't sound 'busy'. If they don't, it will. Of course, objective taste does come into it but, broadly speaking, the question is why is it busy and does it work in the context of the performance.