SOUND V VOLUME

[everogere]

Can anyone explain to me why when I get the perfect sound in my bedroom at resonable volume the sound completely changes when at a gig and at higher volume????

[Mr. Foxen]

Room dynamics and simply turing up the amp doesn't necessarily mean the same sound but louder. Its a problem I had lots when I first joined Caricatures, awesome sound from my pedals in my room, turn up to practice and it vanishes.

[everogere]

Leaving aside room dynamics what EQ frequencies would have to be changed to maintain the same sound, or am I just on the wrong track here!

[Musky]

You can't really leave room dynamics aside - the size, shape, surfaces and placement of your amp in the room will all have an effect, as will the actual stage construction.

If I gather correctly from what I've read on here, an awful lot of cabs are incapable of producing decent bass at higher volumes as well. No doubt someone will be able to give you a more technical answer.

[BOD2]

Very few things are linear when it comes to sound. So when you turn up your amp you don't just get the same sound but louder - the components inside the amp will interact differently, the speaker will behave differently. All of this will change the EQ.

Then, when you go into a new room it will have different resonant frequencies and the room will absorb some frequencies and emphasise others. This changes what you hear too.

So you have to "tune" your sound to every different room. There's no way around it, I'm afraid, but practice will make it easier.

[everogere]

[quote name='BOD2' post='457809' date='Apr 8 2009, 08:59 PM']Very few things are linear when it comes to sound. So when you turn up your amp you don't just get the same sound but louder - the components inside the amp will interact differently, the speaker will behave differently. All of this will change the EQ.

Then, when you go into a new room it will have different resonant frequencies and the room will absorb some frequencies and emphasise others. This changes what you hear too.

So you have to "tune" your sound to every different room. There's no way around it, I'm afraid, but practice will make it easier.[/quote]



Thanks for all that info, thats what i thought really just wondered if there was any tricks !

[TimR]

[quote name='everogere' post='457811' date='Apr 8 2009, 09:01 PM']Thanks for all that info, thats what i thought really just wondered if there was any tricks ![/quote]

What amp do you have. Set all your controls to a neutral position (usually 12 o'clock for the tone controls) then adjust each one to see how the sound is affected in that particular room. Return each one to the neutral before moving to the next one. Then go back and build from scratch. Don't start with everything set as they where when you where at home. Start afresh.

[MacDaddy]

Good thread. I was going to post something similar, about why is it, when I have a great bass sound (lovely and fat and with plenty of bottom end without being muffled) it doesn't work with the band? (2 guitar line up old school metal). The sound that does work, sounds horrible on it's own, all toppy and upper middy, but when the band are playing it works

[escholl]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='458015' date='Apr 9 2009, 12:29 AM']Good thread. I was going to post something similar, about why is it, when I have a great bass sound (lovely and fat and with plenty of bottom end without being muffled) it doesn't work with the band? (2 guitar line up old school metal). The sound that does work, sounds horrible on it's own, all toppy and upper middy, but when the band are playing it works [/quote]

it's all about the frequencies that will cut through -- guitarists tend to get rid of their upper mids, hence leaving them for you

see if you can get them to roll off the bass control on their amps a LOT -- it won't sound so great on its own but in the band suddenly everything will be much clearer

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='escholl' post='458017' date='Apr 9 2009, 12:39 AM']it's all about the frequencies that will cut through -- guitarists tend to get rid of their upper mids, hence leaving them for you

see if you can get them to roll off the bass control on their amps a LOT -- it won't sound so great on its own but in the band suddenly everything will be much clearer [/quote]

you seem to be suggesting that I ask 2 guitar players to turn their controls in a direction that isn't up?

I don't think they are aware of the concept!

[umph]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='458021' date='Apr 9 2009, 12:49 AM']you seem to be suggesting that I ask 2 guitar players to turn their controls in a direction that isn't up?

I don't think they are aware of the concept![/quote]
its not a good idea they just get angry and turn up more then say the bass is far to loud

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='umph' post='458027' date='Apr 9 2009, 12:59 AM']its not a good idea they just get angry and turn up more then their lips are moving but I don't hear any words.[/quote]

[alexclaber]

This is an incredibly complicated topic! However it's an important one so when I get a moment I shall write a lengthy answer and also add it to my site.

Key words: Harmonic distortion and Xmax. Fletcher-Munson. Power response. Frequency masking. Acoustics.

Alex

[escholl]

[quote name='umph' post='458027' date='Apr 9 2009, 12:59 AM']its not a good idea they just get angry and turn up more then say the bass is far to loud[/quote]

that's pretty much what happened >.<


them: "your bass is far too loud, it's making the room go 'whoouum' when we play"

me: "oh really? well, if it's MY bass, why is it coming out of YOUR 4x12?"

[escholl]

[quote name='everogere' post='457811' date='Apr 8 2009, 09:01 PM']Thanks for all that info, thats what i thought really just wondered if there was any tricks ![/quote]

-don't turn the bass controls up, as the sound gets louder, the bass levels you hear will naturally increase due to the non-linear way the ear is sensitive to different frequencies. boosting the bass frequencies will not necessarily help and will only waste more amplifier power that could be used elsewhere in the spectrum.

-if you can, always cut the EQ frequencies you don't want, instead of boosting the ones you do

-lots of mids in the 330Hz range can help you be heard in a dense mix

-radical EQ'ing is usually not necessary. +/-3 dB can go a long way towards getting the right sound.



these are just a few things i've found.

[51m0n]

[quote name='TimR' post='457955' date='Apr 8 2009, 11:29 PM']What amp do you have. Set all your controls to a neutral position (usually 12 o'clock for the tone controls) then adjust each one to see how the sound is affected in that particular room. Return each one to the neutral before moving to the next one. Then go back and build from scratch. Don't start with everything set as they where when you where at home. Start afresh.[/quote]

+1 Set your amp gain and volume up to keep up with the drummer with everything eq wise flat and compression and effects off.

Now start to tweak, cut whenever possible rather than boost (really - it does make a diff)

Here's the tricky bit, do the same with the guitars (yup flat, and low distortion, cleaner the better, add as little gain as you can get away with and allow the guitarist to play - he'll hate it but the band will actually sound better for it) then its again a case of some judicious cutting (not always easy on guitar amps, sometimes you have so little frequency control that boosting is the only option) - try your best not to boost the bass if you can.

I've done this on occasion with the last three bands I've had anything to do with. Invariably the guitarists hate it. However the thing to do is to record the band how they like it, then how you like it, leave it a week and play them the two versions, as double blind as possible, hopefully with non band members listening too. Almost invariably the version you set up will sound clearer, especially if you can carve a little frequency out of the bass and guitars for vox. It doesnt last long, but it can help for a while....

[everogere]

[quote name='51m0n' post='458438' date='Apr 9 2009, 02:11 PM']+1 Set your amp gain and volume up to keep up with the drummer with everything eq wise flat and compression and effects off.

Now start to tweak, cut whenever possible rather than boost (really - it does make a diff)

Here's the tricky bit, do the same with the guitars (yup flat, and low distortion, cleaner the better, add as little gain as you can get away with and allow the guitarist to play - he'll hate it but the band will actually sound better for it) then its again a case of some judicious cutting (not always easy on guitar amps, sometimes you have so little frequency control that boosting is the only option) - try your best not to boost the bass if you can.

I've done this on occasion with the last three bands I've had anything to do with. Invariably the guitarists hate it. However the thing to do is to record the band how they like it, then how you like it, leave it a week and play them the two versions, as double blind as possible, hopefully with non band members listening too. Almost invariably the version you set up will sound clearer, especially if you can carve a little frequency out of the bass and guitars for vox. It doesnt last long, but it can help for a while....[/quote]


I use a Ashdown Evo 3 500 with a Schroder 1212L cab so plenty of tone adjustment available. I will try all these suggestions on gigs in France over easter. Thanks

[umph]

[quote name='escholl' post='458071' date='Apr 9 2009, 08:24 AM']that's pretty much what happened >.<


them: "your bass is far too loud, it's making the room go 'whoouum' when we play"

me: "oh really? well, if it's MY bass, why is it coming out of YOUR 4x12?"[/quote]
haha specially marshall cabs, those things pump out mud like theres no tommorow

[thinman]

[quote name='escholl' post='458017' date='Apr 9 2009, 12:39 AM']it's all about the frequencies that will cut through -- guitarists tend to get rid of their upper mids, hence leaving them for you

see if you can get them to roll off the bass control on their amps a LOT -- it won't sound so great on its own but in the band suddenly everything will be much clearer [/quote]

+lots

I'm always having this debate with our guitarists. They want a sound that's "complete" by itself rather than one that works in context. I agree with escholl that primarily you have to get them to cut the bass off otherwise the band can sound muddy - it's the same when mixing tracks when recording - you often roll the bass of everything that's not primarily bassy.

It's a bloody hard job though because they always say "that sounds horrible now" and they adjust it once but the eq creeps back next time! I've got round them by micing them up and putting them through the PA with the lows cut - they seem to accept playing more quietly more readily than chaning their tone!

Similarly I've found that the bass sound that works best in the band doesn't sound that great by itself - very middy seems to work well. It's about realising that in a band it's what the whole sounds like rather than it being a battle of big individual sounds.