Pickups

[Boodang]

1 hour ago, Bassfinger said:

Well, the plastic components have no bearing on the sound.

 

Wire differs only in gauge, not quality.

 

Magnets differ only in the strength of the field the produce, and one chooses that which is appropriate to the sound they seek.

 

So if thats the measure, then the answer to the original question is 

All the above will of course affect tone massively tho.

[BigRedX]

10 hours ago, Boodang said:

All the above will of course affect tone massively tho.

 

Please explain using proper science how the plastic components will affect the tone of a pickup.

[Boodang]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

Please explain using proper science how the plastic components will affect the tone of a pickup.

The colour of the plastic will effect the aesthetics of the bass which will effect the mood of the player which will effect what he plays!! Ta da!!

(Which is a good argument for why pickup covers should come in a variety of colours).

PS when I got my custom pups made i actually ask for red covers but he didn't do them. So now I'm in a black mood!

[itu]

Basics

A pickup is a coil-magnet component. If you do not know why are them there, it is because the magnetic string moving in the magnet field induces electrical signal (AC) in the coil around the magnet. The original coil-magnet idea is relatively old, Michael Faraday invented this system in 1831.

 

Some physics related details (simplified)

A coil can push more power to the output, if the coil has lots of windings. At the same time the frequency response will be reduced the more there is rounds in the coil. Less winding = wider response and weaker output.

 

The magnet (simplified, again)

A magnet affects the output the same way as the coil: the stronger it is, the stronger is the output. The distance to the coil and strings is very important, as the power of the magnetic field weakens really quickly. Even fractions of millimeters can affect the output. The materials are many, and if something is to be remembered, the magnetic material tells us only, that it is some named material. The "power" of the magnet can be nearly anything from zero to its maximum possible. If bigger amounts of magnets are sourced, you can choose the "power" level. Because of this, the name does not tell the exact "power". It only tells about the materials there are. Neodymium can be weaker than a AlNiCo, if they are magnetized to different "powers".

(disclaimer: I use the word "power" here only in a descriptive way. I want this to be easy reading in stead of raw physics.)

 

Pickup frame

The frame is the support for the coil and the magnets. As the distances and shapes affect the output and response, the plastic frame is designed to support the named parts. Plastic material itself has no effect on sound, only the shape may have a bit. Most likely the difference in shape is inaudible.

 

Wired, like Jeff Beck

The wire has to be tiny - like the signal is - so that the manufacturer can put enough of it to a small pickup. To get enough of signal from the pickup, we have two choices: high impedance (hi-Z) with lots of wire, or a buffered low impedance (lo-Z) output (like EMG) with somewhat less. There has been many, many trials on different types of winding types, wires, shapes etc. but there is no holy grail. Sorry, now I have said it.

 

Production

Hand winding can be a good choice if the production is small. If the production is modern, efficient, and the products have to be equal in quality, machinery is a viable option. But again, neither is superior. Just different.

 

Sensation

You want to hear a difference? You hear it. Make it a blind ABX test in controlled surroundings, you probably can not repeat your findings. A J/P/MM/humbucker/else has a comparable sound if the electronics after the pickup are constant. Of course there are overwound, as well as lo-Z options, and by their nature, they are different.

 

Conclusion

Pickup is important part of the sound, whether it is a basic coil-magnet, piezo, optical, acceleration sensor, or anything. One part of the sound is also coming from strings. Different pickups make it possible to use different types: nylon strings on a bass, and a coil-magnet is not a feasible solution. Piezo on the other hand...

 

Magnet "power" and coil winding are the main parametres, but there are few details that can be tweaked with certain choices. As it has been said here several times, we lack good terms in describing qualitative details of the sound. My good may be your good, or not. This is really an issue, we do not have a decent solution available. Discussion continues.

[Boodang]

6 minutes ago, itu said:

Basics

A pickup is a coil-magnet component. If you do not know why are them there, it is because the magnetic string moving in the magnet field induces electrical signal (AC) in the coil around the magnet. The original coil-magnet idea is relatively old, Michael Faraday invented this system in 1831.

 

Some physics related details (simplified)

A coil can push more power to the output, if the coil has lots of windings. At the same time the frequency response will be reduced the more there is rounds in the coil. Less winding = wider response and weaker output.

 

The magnet (simplified, again)

A magnet affects the output the same way as the coil: the stronger it is, the stronger is the output. The distance to the coil and strings is very important, as the power of the magnetic field weakens really quickly. Even fractions of millimeters can affect the output. The materials are many, and if something is to be remembered, the magnetic material tells us only, that it is some named material. The "power" of the magnet can be nearly anything from zero to its maximum possible. If bigger amounts of magnets are sourced, you can choose the "power" level. Because of this, the name does not tell the exact "power". It only tells about the materials there are. Neodymium can be weaker than a AlNiCo, if they are magnetized to different "powers".

(disclaimer: I use the word "power" here only in a descriptive way. I want this to be easy reading in stead of raw physics.)

 

Pickup frame

The frame is the support for the coil and the magnets. As the distances and shapes affect the output and response, the plastic frame is designed to support the named parts. Plastic material itself has no effect on sound, only the shape may have a bit. Most likely the difference in shape is inaudible.

 

Wired, like Jeff Beck

The wire has to be tiny - like the signal is - so that the manufacturer can put enough of it to a small pickup. To get enough of signal from the pickup, we have two choices: high impedance (hi-Z) with lots of wire, or a buffered low impedance (lo-Z) output (like EMG) with somewhat less. There has been many, many trials on different types of winding types, wires, shapes etc. but there is no holy grail. Sorry, now I have said it.

 

Production

Hand winding can be a good choice if the production is small. If the production is modern, efficient, and the products have to be equal in quality, machinery is a viable option. But again, neither is superior. Just different.

 

Sensation

You want to hear a difference? You hear it. Make it a blind ABX test in controlled surroundings, you probably can not repeat your findings. A J/P/MM/humbucker/else has a comparable sound if the electronics after the pickup are constant. Of course there are overwound, as well as lo-Z options, and by their nature, they are different.

 

Conclusion

Pickup is important part of the sound, whether it is a basic coil-magnet, piezo, optical, acceleration sensor, or anything. One part of the sound is also coming from strings. Different pickups make it possible to use different types: nylon strings on a bass, and a coil-magnet is not a feasible solution. Piezo on the other hand...

 

Magnet "power" and coil winding are the main parametres, but there are few details that can be tweaked with certain choices. As it has been said here several times, we lack good terms in describing qualitative details of the sound. My good may be your good, or not. This is really an issue, we do not have a decent solution available. Discussion continues.

Wired is a good Jeff Beck album!

As you have listed, there's lots of parameters on pickup design to tweek. Something that I've been experimenting with recently with my jazz basses is the difference between the usual 2 offset pole pieces per string compared to just having 1 larger centered magnet. Definitely affects the attack of the initial note. I can feel a conversation coming on with the custom pickup guy for more pickups!

[Delberthot]

The discussion in this thread is the reason when I see a bass advertised as "upgraded" with new pickups, I read it as "modified".

 

2 minutes ago, Boodang said:

Wired is a good Jeff Beck album!

As you have listed, there's lots of parameters on pickup design to tweek. Something that I've been experimenting with recently with my jazz basses is the difference between the usual 2 offset pole pieces per string compared to just having 1 larger centered magnet. Definitely affects the attack of the initial note. I can feel a conversation coming on with the custom pickup guy for more pickups!

 

How do you find that it changes the attack when you have one magnet per string direclty under the string as opposed to one either side of the string?

 

Thinking that Precisions & Jazzes are each side of the string and Ricks & Musicman are single poles per string. Not counting some Delanos and other aftermarket pickups etc. Obviously their placement is completely different in all 4 basses mentioned above which will also affect the tone

[4000]

Different pickups can make a huge difference. Whether or not you like that difference is another thing entirely; it’s a bit like whether you like sugar in your tea/coffee and if so, how much. I, for instance, tend not to like higher output pickups. YMMV. 

[Boodang]

34 minutes ago, Delberthot said:

The discussion in this thread is the reason when I see a bass advertised as "upgraded" with new pickups, I read it as "modified".

 

 

How do you find that it changes the attack when you have one magnet per string direclty under the string as opposed to one either side of the string?

 

Thinking that Precisions & Jazzes are each side of the string and Ricks & Musicman are single poles per string. Not counting some Delanos and other aftermarket pickups etc. Obviously their placement is completely different in all 4 basses mentioned above which will also affect the tone

Actually Ed Friedland was talking about this on his bass whisperer channel so it made me try it out (I'll see if I can find the episode and link it).

The attack is more 'immediate' where the pole piece is directly under than with the offset 2 pole design. Having said that it's subtle and the overwhelming difference in the sound is the overall character as the pickups, despite being single coil, are radically different in design. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Boodang

[Tjhooker]

I think pickup and strings have a huge effect on sound / tone of any instrument

[SH73]

It depends what you want from the sound. I fitted Matt Freeman signature bass with Seymour Duncan Steve Harris Sig pickups. They made the bass sound, well like close to Steve's tone, so I put back the stock pickups. 

[itu]

21 hours ago, Boodang said:

...it's subtle and the overwhelming difference in the sound is the overall character as the pickups, despite being single coil, are radically different in design. 

Radically different is a radical expression here. And to your previous comment, there aren't that many parameters to tweak. Plain physics.

 

I think there are many who want to hear a difference. Please take a look at blind testing. A fellow student - at the time - conducted two tests with speakers and amplifiers. The same speaker pair was covered with three different cloths, black, brown, and white. As the listeners could see the colours, they heard the speakers sound different. Brown was obviously the worst. Amplifiers, one model, two colours: brushed aluminium and black anodized front panel. The brushed got comments on its metallic sound, while black sounded more even... This is called psychoacoustics.

 

You want to hear something, you can hear it. The next trial for you is to find a pickup with horizontal magnet or magnets, and describe its parameters compared to those vertical polepiece siblings. "Compressed and round, but airy... or was this about a white wine in a red wine bottle?"