"Cutting Through"... or not?

[Marty Forrer]

My reply to another thread made me wonder, why oh why do bassplayers have this obsession with cutting through? Got to admit, I was in this situation too until a couple of years ago. I use a wireless and always go out front to set my level and the desk levels (I run the PA too). One gig I decided to cut my bass volume as an experiment, and epiphany! The overall band sound, and in particular the vocals, drastically improved. This got me to thinking about listening to records, and I realised that in 75% of cases the bass was just audible. It was there for sure, but non-musicians could not hum along to the bassline. My conclusion: bass needs to make bums on seats twitch, but does not need to become another instrument for the punters to listen to. Since adopting this approach my band's sound and following have improved greatly. By lifting my cab off the floor I can hear myself fine, and my bandmates have become much more concious of making their sound fit the song. Food for thought.

[Downunderwonder]

The logical extension to that school of thought is that a bassline composed of root note of varying length and intervals is sufficient. I am not of the school of bumpity bumpity bump.

 

The bassline should be as audible as any other line that isn't the tune.

 

In the traditional small ensemble the bass is much more often the bridge between rhythms of drums and the melody.

 

I think non musicians struggle to isolate all the parts that aren't the tune. If I can't hear what the bass is doing then it's a bad mix! If all I can hear is bass it's worse but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[chris_b]

I had a conversation with a sound man on a gig.

 

Him, "You're loud. I don't even have you in the PA."

 

Me, "OK, I'll turn down."

 

Him, "No don't. It's sounding good."

 

QED

[skidder652003]

Yeah, I'd hate it if Geddy's bass lines cut through and I had to hear them. 

Seriously though , I have to disagree. I love it when the bass cuts through, not overpowering but clearly audible. So many sweet lines to inspire.

Edited February 16, 2022 by skidder652003

[Waddycall]

Totally dependant on type of music and also particular songs. Some have a signature bass line/part that needs to be heard. I like myself, the band and audience to be able to hear what I’m playing and have my own space in the sound.

[BassAdder60]

I think it also depends on the band.

My band is a three piece plus singer rock band so I have to be heard as if not the guitarist sounds lost and empty during solos etc 

[naxos10]

When I first had abass many decades ago I was always told that the bass should be felt and not heard.

I think there are times for the bass just to be there and when required be more prominent.

[Lozz196]

On my new bands last album the bass is def there as there is sufficient low end, but it’s not a cut through the mix bass, and imo the album sounds much better because of it. I think it’s horses for courses really, with the style of the band and the sounds of the other instruments being major factors. Chillis imo would have been rotten without an audible Flea, AC/DC rotten with a cut through the mix Cliff.

[Newfoundfreedom]

9 hours ago, Marty Forrer said:

My reply to another thread made me wonder, why oh why do bassplayers have this obsession with cutting through? Got to admit, I was in this situation too until a couple of years ago. I use a wireless and always go out front to set my level and the desk levels (I run the PA too). One gig I decided to cut my bass volume as an experiment, and epiphany! The overall band sound, and in particular the vocals, drastically improved. This got me to thinking about listening to records, and I realised that in 75% of cases the bass was just audible. It was there for sure, but non-musicians could not hum along to the bassline. My conclusion: bass needs to make bums on seats twitch, but does not need to become another instrument for the punters to listen to. Since adopting this approach my band's sound and following have improved greatly. By lifting my cab off the floor I can hear myself fine, and my bandmates have become much more concious of making their sound fit the song. Food for thought.

 

I agree, to a degree. I must admit I like to be on the low side in the mix. But it very much depends on the band and style of music. In a 3 piece rock band for example, the bass is as much as integral part of the overall sound as anything else. Arguably in disco / mowtown / R&B etc, even more so. 

[MacDaddy]

There's a live album by Dokken - Unleashed in the East - and regardless of what you think about the music, Jeff Pilson's bass is big and fat, fills the space, but also cuts through.

[Downunderwonder]

22 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

AC/DC rotten with a cut through the mix Cliff

Cliff is plenty audible to me. Cutting through is a term I associate with the poor sods in metal bands where the guitars hog the bass midrange with their extraneous low end.

[Lozz196]

Yeah he’s audible but not in a “look at me” type way. A truly supportive role, adding a foundation on which the rest can then layer above, Malcolm/Stevie being the next layer. Still think they’re the best rhythm section ever.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

3 hours ago, naxos10 said:

When I first had abass many decades ago I was always told that the bass should be felt and not heard.

 

Who told you that? Let me guess: a guitar player. 🙄

 

There's a common trait among the bass players who have the highest reputation, be it Jamerson, Sir Paul, The Ox, Bogert, Geddy, Stanley, Sting or whomever: they're heard.

[chris_b]

I'm working up the numbers for a new band. I've been given a couple of YT videos to work from, but the bass player was so quiet that even with earphones I'm guessing what the guy played most of the time. They said, "Yeah he was a little quiet on the night!" And no one thought to ask him to turn up?

 

I've played with 3 out of the 4 members before, so they know what they are getting, but no one is going to be straining to hear the bass on their next gig.

[Doddy]

As far as I'm concerned, the bass is as equal as any other instrument and should be treated as such.

The "bass should be felt and not heard" thing is pure balls. I want to do both.

[WinterMute]

Sorry, but if your bass sound is interfering with the mix so much that it need turning down one of two things is happening...

 

1. It's too loud, well done for spotting that.

2. You've not got your sound dialled in for the overall sonic footprint of the band/venue.

 

1. is a player issue, 2. is a mixing issue. 

 

There is absolutely no reason why a bass sound can't be present and aggressive and still play nicely with everything else, similarly there's no reason a good bass sound can't cut in a mix whilst being quiet and supportive. These are mix issues. Employ a HPF to remove anything under 25Hz (maybe as high as 40Hz) in the PA, watch your amplification of the 1-3Khz band, which is where a lot of clarity and articulation happen in vocals, don't boost HF with a shelf EQ, use a bell shape or a LPF to remove HF above 10-12k.

 

You can employ similar approaches to guitars and keys, especially heavily distorted guitars that have a ton of LF in them, try HPF set to 75-150hz to let the bass sit underneath the guitars. HPF on keys is really useful, allowing space for all instruments to work in their natural ranges means you don't have to try so hard to get stuff to "cut".

[chris_b]

4 minutes ago, Doddy said:

As far as I'm concerned, the bass is as equal as any other instrument and should be treated as such.

The "bass should be felt and not heard" thing is pure balls. I want to do both.

 

+1

 

Being felt rather than heard was never a "thing" on recordings.

 

It was more of an excuse to explain away the poor live sound many bass players were lumbered with, back in the days of crap bass gear.

[MacDaddy]

I'm reminded of the Bill Shankly(?) quote "if he's not interferring with play, he shouldn't be on the pitch!"

 

So to paraphrase "if his bass can't be heard, he shouldn't be on the stage!".

[JapanAxe]

I like my bass to be heard and to have its place in the mix, but I never think of this as ‘cutting through’. ‘Cutting’ implies treble frequencies, which may of course be present in my bass sound but aren’t what it’s really about.

[gjones]

I have to say, I don't listen to music where the bass is almost inaudible.

 

If a musician is playing, why make him/her almost inaudible.

 

They just shouldn't be on the stage, as they serve no purpose.

 

 

[Lozz196]

I think there’s clearly audible, such as Bruce Foxtons work with The Jam, or there’s it’s clearly there but playing a more foundation type role such as what Steve Jones did on Never Mind The Bollocks by The Sex Pistols. Both have their place imo. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Lozz196

[JPJ]

Like the OP I mix the band whilst playing. For me, its all about finding space in the sonic landscape for each instrument. I used to play with a guitarist who was so loud and so bassy that sound men & women were always asking me to turn down. During one soundcheck I actually turned right down and mimed along only to be asked to turn down again - oh how we laughed.

My own recipe is start with the drums, add bass and segregate the bass from the bass drum by eq, then add guitar(s) repeating the trick, before layering the vocals over the top. Cutting through is a matter of eq of the bass, a good sound where you can hear and distinguish each instrument is a matter of good eq of the whole band.

[Nicko]

34 minutes ago, JPJ said:

For me, its all about finding space in the sonic landscape for each instrument.

This.

[Nicko]

I can't help thinking this should be in the general discussion, not amps and cabs. 

[skidder652003]

16 hours ago, JapanAxe said:

I like my bass to be heard and to have its place in the mix, but I never think of this as ‘cutting through’. ‘Cutting’ implies treble frequencies, which may of course be present in my bass sound but aren’t what it’s really about.

Not to me. It just means being heard as well as felt. For me its usually a case of adjusting the low mids. I actually have my higher frequencies right down and utilise the mids section of the EQ to "cut through". The guitarist hogs a lot of low end, especially on his Les Paul and a lot of the mid/highs on his strat. The drummer gets his lows with his kick and toms and his highs with snare and rides. I get squeezed in the mids so that's where I find my space. I make it sound basic but there's a lot of wriggle room in there. The acoustics of each venue make a huge difference to where those boundaries are.

Edited February 17, 2022 by skidder652003