"Cutting Through"... or not?

[Chienmortbb]

On 16/02/2022 at 01:51, chris_b said:

I had a conversation with a sound man on a gig.

 

Him, "You're loud. I don't even have you in the PA."

 

Me, "OK, I'll turn down."

 

Him, "No don't. It's sounding good."

 

QED

I was once told by a sound person to turn down so I did. He said you are still too loud, i turned down. Still tooloud, I turned the master to 0. .......You are still too loud.

He went a vivid shade of red when I told him.

[NancyJohnson]

We had a sound guy once who said something about owning your own frequency; adding a bit of mids will allow you to own the low-end wobble and effectively cut through into frequencies that aren't really evident...it's like magic and doesn't really change your perception of what you sounded like in isolation.

 

Our guitarist at the time loved a very dirty bassy tone, so by way of compensation I always rolled the treble up on whatever amp set-up I was using.  Pre-gig this one particular time, the sound guy and I nefariously changed some of the guitarists tone settings while he was getting a beer and then I did mine on the fly a few seconds before we started playing.  Guitarist said afterwards that even from his position he thought we sounded awesome compared to previous gigs.  

[PaulWarning]

Hate it when I can't hear the bass very well in the mix, live or on record, one of the reasons I took up bass was because of the early Status Quo albums (up to but not including Rocking All Over the World)  where the bass is clearly audible.

Somebody mentioned Never mind the Bollocks, a brilliant album, but I for one think it would be even better with the bass was a bit higher in the mix, mind you it can be hard to hear the bass when it just follows the root, Another punk album SLF first album is unlistenable, despite some great songs on it because it's so tinny IMO ymmv

Another thought, whenever there's a remaster of an album, thinking Beatles and the Clash here, the bass is more prominent in the mix

[Nicko]

4 hours ago, skidder652003 said:

Not to me. It just means being heard as well as felt. For me its usually a case of adjusting the low mids. I actually have my higher frequencies right down and utilise the mids section of the EQ to "cut through". The guitarist hogs a lot of low end, especially on his Les Paul and a lot of the mid/highs on his strat. The drummer gets his lows with his kick and toms and his highs with snare and rides. I get squeezed in the mids so that's where I find my space. I make it sound basic but there's a lot of wriggle room in there. The acoustics of each venue make a huge difference to where those boundaries are.

For me playing in a 5 piece where the lead guitarist favoured a Les Paul with quite a lot of bassy grit was a "sad face" on the EQ.  That's how the band sounded best but I didn't realise why at the time.

[BigRedX]

The place of the bass guitar in a band mix depends very much on genre and the personal preferences of the musicians. There are no rules but there are conventions. Even then there is no definite reason to follow them, and anyway it's all subjective. If the band thinks the mix sounds good then it is good.

[chris_b]

Fortunately I don't play with guitarists who are sitting in my frequency range. . . my beef is always with electric piano players who think they are the only bass instrument on stage. Most will change if I ask nicely, but there are a couple where I just have to alter my bass lines in certain songs to get away from them!!

[Lozz196]

I recall seeing a photo of a keyboard which had a big piece of paper sellotaped at the left end with "You have a bassist" written on it.

[Lozz196]

2 hours ago, PaulWarning said:

Hate it when I can't hear the bass very well in the mix, live or on record, one of the reasons I took up bass was because of the early Status Quo albums (up to but not including Rocking All Over the World)  where the bass is clearly audible.

Somebody mentioned Never mind the Bollocks, a brilliant album, but I for one think it would be even better with the bass was a bit higher in the mix, mind you it can be hard to hear the bass when it just follows the root, Another punk album SLF first album is unlistenable, despite some great songs on it because it's so tinny IMO ymmv

Another thought, whenever there's a remaster of an album, thinking Beatles and the Clash here, the bass is more prominent in the mix

I`ve got the 2012 remastered version of NMTB, Paul, and the bass is higher up in the mix, so much better for in the car. It`s still very much a supporting role rather than cut-through but a lot more powerful, the guitars also seems less "middy" which probably helps with the bass a bit as well.

 

Re SLF/Inflammable Material, totally get that, the versions on All The Best are much better to my ears, though still rather tinny. Out of all their albums (first time round) I like Nobodys Heroes the best, Ali had a great bass tone on that.

[Greg Edwards69]

I don't want to cut through the mix. I want to punch the mix in the balls.

 

Seriously though where the bass sits in the mix is dependent on so many factors.  The material, the other instruments, the sound of the bass drum, even what's appropriate for the venue.  For me, "cutting through" means note definition. Actually, it means sitting properly in the mix so that it's felt and identifiable.  It doesn't have to be all subby low end. You can have note clarity whilst still feeling the low end thump that getting peoples legs gyrating on the dancefloor. It's not one or the other. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm a big fan of Duff McKagan's tone on Appetite for Destruction. The bass tone has a metric tonne of chest thumping wallop in the low end, but it has a glassy top end clarity that let's you identify every single note.

PS, I've run the gauntlet of bass tones in the mix over the years.  I used to think it was all about cranking the bass knob. Then I discovered upper mids, then I discovered Billy Sheehan and used a dual channel signal path for some time in an effort to get huge subsonic low end and cutting mid-range. Then I discovered hpfs and frequency slotting.  I think I've got it just right nowadays - somewhere in-between them all.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Greg Edwards69

[chris_b]

55 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

I recall seeing a photo of a keyboard which had a big piece of paper sellotaped at the left end with "You have a bassist" written on it.

 

Several times I've lent over, after the first number, and told the keys player, "There's only one bass player in this band and it's not you!".  With a smile, of course. 

[chris_b]

39 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

I don't want to cut through the mix. I want to punch the mix in the balls.

 

 

Yes. Yes. Yes!

[ezbass]

1 minute ago, chris_b said:

 

Several times I've lent over, after the first number, and told the keys player, "There's only one bass player in this band and it's not you!".  With a smile, of course. 

I used to say (see yell), "I will cut it off!" All with a laugh of course  

[Greg Edwards69]

On 16/02/2022 at 13:37, WinterMute said:

You can employ similar approaches to guitars and keys, especially heavily distorted guitars that have a ton of LF in them, try HPF set to 75-150hz to let the bass sit underneath the guitars. HPF on keys is really useful, allowing space for all instruments to work in their natural ranges means you don't have to try so hard to get stuff to "cut".

Since the two guitarists and me went all Helix and frfr, this has improved things substantially. I, and one of the guitarists (who doubles on keys) are very conscious of where we sit in the mix and what it sounds like in the room. The other guitarist is very much in the "Set it can forget it" camp (he used to be a nightmare with his old 100w valve combo pointed at his knees and he never touched the eq, not to mention his stompbox and channel levels would be all over the place).  Great lplayer but not the best critical listener.

We've turned on the hpf on his frfr (and told him not to touch it) and I set up is global eq so that has an additional low cut. We also had a couple of "technical rehearsals" to help him dial in and balance his presets so there's no sudden volume spikes. We also go direct form the Helixes to FOH, so it as long as his on stage frfr is at a sensible volume, our soundman has control of his overall volume.

 

It sounds so much better now.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Greg Edwards69

[shoulderpet]

On 16/02/2022 at 00:37, Marty Forrer said:

My reply to another thread made me wonder, why oh why do bassplayers have this obsession with cutting through? Got to admit, I was in this situation too until a couple of years ago. I use a wireless and always go out front to set my level and the desk levels (I run the PA too). One gig I decided to cut my bass volume as an experiment, and epiphany! The overall band sound, and in particular the vocals, drastically improved. This got me to thinking about listening to records, and I realised that in 75% of cases the bass was just audible. It was there for sure, but non-musicians could not hum along to the bassline. My conclusion: bass needs to make bums on seats twitch, but does not need to become another instrument for the punters to listen to. Since adopting this approach my band's sound and following have improved greatly. By lifting my cab off the floor I can hear myself fine, and my bandmates have become much more concious of making their sound fit the song. Food for thought.

I disagree, I know there are some musicians who think that bass should be felt and not heard but honestly I dont understand that mentality at all

 

Honestly I think the bass should be felt less and heard more, I have been to a lot of gigs where the bass was eq'd with bowel loosening amounts of low end and zero clarity, unfortunately that seems to be the trend now

[ezbass]

1 hour ago, shoulderpet said:

 

 

Honestly I think the bass should be felt less and heard more, I have been to a lot of gigs where the bass was eq'd with bowel loosening amounts of low end and zero clarity, unfortunately that seems to be the trend now

And totally lost in the over the top bass drum.

[shoulderpet]

51 minutes ago, ezbass said:

And totally lost in the over the top bass drum.

Oh yes, I remember a gig that I went to, great gig but soundwise not great and the bass drum read eq'd with so much low end that every time the drummer hit the bass drum you couldn't tell if it was the bass or the drums that you were hearing

[gjones]

7 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

I was once told by a sound person to turn down so I did. He said you are still too loud, i turned down. Still tooloud, I turned the master to 0. .......You are still too loud.

He went a vivid shade of red when I told him.

I used to play with a drummer who accused me of being too loud.

 

He kept on complaining until I had turned my volume to zero.

 

Which he said sounded just about right.

 

By the time of the next gig, we'd got a new drummer.

[BreadBin]

5 hours ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

I don't want to cut through the mix. I want to punch the mix in the balls.

 

Winner!

[Steve Soar]

On 16/02/2022 at 00:37, Marty Forrer said:

My reply to another thread made me wonder, why oh why do bassplayers have this obsession with cutting through? Got to admit, I was in this situation too until a couple of years ago. I use a wireless and always go out front to set my level and the desk levels (I run the PA too). One gig I decided to cut my bass volume as an experiment, and epiphany! The overall band sound, and in particular the vocals, drastically improved. This got me to thinking about listening to records, and I realised that in 75% of cases the bass was just audible. It was there for sure, but non-musicians could not hum along to the bassline. My conclusion: bass needs to make bums on seats twitch, but does not need to become another instrument for the punters to listen to. Since adopting this approach my band's sound and following have improved greatly. By lifting my cab off the floor I can hear myself fine, and my bandmates have become much more concious of making their sound fit the song. Food for thought.

You Sir have spoken the truth.

[Steve Soar]

I I went to see India Ari in Manchester and the whole mix was destroyed by over the top bass and bass drum, ruined the gig.

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I've experienced that a lot, starting with Ringo/Sheila E/Greg Lake 20 odd years ago. It wasn't their fault, it was the PA FOH engineer. The EQ was so AFU that whenever Greg hit a note from C on down it drowned out the entire band, but when he hit a higher note the bass disappeared entirely. When Ringo went for a stint on his kit the kick was so loud that even back on his riser he felt it, and told the engineer on mic in the middle of the song to turn it down. Gosh awful.

 

There should be a special section of hell where idiot sound men who have no idea what bass and kick drums are supposed to sound like should spend eternity: polka music 24/7/365.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[ezbass]

13 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

 

 

There should be a special section of hell where idiot sound men who have no idea what bass and kick drums are supposed to sound like should spend eternity: polka music 24/7/365.

Sadly, this seems to be the vast majority of FOH engineers that I’ve come across.  

[Downunderwonder]

I thought we were in for a tough night. At soundcheck the soundguy kept riding my fader. The quieter I played the more he boosted me in the PA to where I am just brushing strings. Then when we hit loud I couldn't dig in at all. I had to get him to knock that chit off.

 

Something must have clicked because the gig went fine. At the break he says to me ''Man you guys are dynamic!!", like he never heard a real live band before in his life.

 

''Without quiet there is no loud''. I don't know who said that first but it is so true.

[JPJ]

I wouldn’t always rush to blame the FOH engineer. A lot of venues these days have in-house PA systems and at least one of our local venue’s has a PA with way too many subs mainly to satisfy the venues other use as a nightclub. Given that these venue systems are presented to the visiting FOH engineer as ‘tuned’ systems, the first time the engineer here’s the system with a crowd in the room will be show time. 

[Chienmortbb]

On 17/02/2022 at 16:30, shoulderpet said:

Oh yes, I remember a gig that I went to, great gig but soundwise not great and the bass drum read eq'd with so much low end that every time the drummer hit the bass drum you couldn't tell if it was the bass or the drums that you were hearing

I was at one gig where the kocj drum would totally dominate whenever it was played. AS a result the rest of the band just dissappeared for about a second.