Are these Fodera NYC Empires real or fake?

[LLOYDWT]

I've always fancied one of the Fodera NYC Empire basses, so every now and then I browse the forums and marketplaces to see if I can find one that fits my requirements and budget. Recently, I keep coming across "new" or "unused" Empire basses from Japanese eBayers.

 

Examples —

Ash and Maple

Red and Rosewood

Gold and Maple

Blue and Maple

Sunburst and Maple

 

I can't find anything on Fodera's website regarding a rerelease of the NYC Empire; and aside from Japanese eBayers, I can't find any mention of their existence anywhere on the internet. Aesthetically they look identical to the basses I know to be legitimate Empires, but the headstocks of these new basses incorporate the Fodera name in large font, whereas the older basses have "N.Y.C. EMPIRE BASS® by Fodera" in smaller font. The Fodera butterfly is also outlined in black unlike the originals  and they've added a string tree.

 

 

If they're fakes, then they're pretty good ones. From the photos they look as well put together as the ones I've seen in the flesh; and they're priced inline with what I'd expect to pay for a real one. I'm unlikely to buy a bass from Japan at the best of times, but there's a real red flag for me on these and I'm curious if anybody knows what's going on.

Edited February 21, 2022 by LLOYDWT

[Acebassmusic]

They MAY be legit. Fodera themselves responded to a TalkBass thread in 2018 (post #11) - Talkbass - Fodera?

[Doctor J]

Gotoh branded bridges on some, ABM bridges on others. Possibly a licenced Japanese line? I wouldn't think they were made in NYC by Fodera, anyway, and certainly wouldn't be spending 4 grand on one any time soon.

[LLOYDWT]

2 hours ago, Doctor J said:

Gotoh branded bridges on some, ABM bridges on others. Possibly a licenced Japanese line? I wouldn't think they were made in NYC by Fodera, anyway, and certainly wouldn't be spending 4 grand on one any time soon.

Yeah, AFAIK the original Empires were Japanese too, made in the same workshop that built Bottomwave and F Clef basses. As the Talkbass thread that @Acebassmusic linked to says, the aesthetic anomalies of these newer basses do, in Fodera's on words, conform to the design of the last Empires produced. It just seems unlikely that so many "new" basses would be popping up so long after production ceased. Either somebody has come across a container full of NOS basses, or somebody has been using the original CNCs/templates to reproduce the Empires in their entirety. £4K is definitely more than I'm willing to spend, even on a bass with excellent provenance, but whatever the story is here, I'd be interested to know. 

[bubinga5]

 

[LLOYDWT]

Thanks @bubinga5, I had seen that thread but there's nothing there that addresses a batch of entirely "new" or "as new" basses.

 

Am I the only person who thinks it's weird that a bass model that's been out of production for over a decade suddenly has lots of marketplace listings for "new" basses?

[bubinga5]

I think Japan are making reissues of these basses. They are legit.Made by whole im not sure.

[AndyTravis]

35 minutes ago, LLOYDWT said:

Thanks @bubinga5, I had seen that thread but there's nothing there that addresses a batch of entirely "new" or "as new" basses.

 

Am I the only person who thinks it's weird that a bass model that's been out of production for over a decade suddenly has lots of marketplace listings for "new" basses?

It happens like that, someone lists a specific bass, it sells - possibly for a good price and people Chuck theirs up…

 

Fender Fleas come in 3’s/4’s - for example.

[AndyTravis]

12 minutes ago, bubinga5 said:

I think Japan are making reissues of these basses. They are legit.Made by whole im not sure.

Are they still doing them? 

[LLOYDWT]

1 minute ago, AndyTravis said:

It happens like that, someone lists a specific bass, it sells - possibly for a good price and people Chuck theirs up…

 

Fender Fleas come in 3’s/4’s - for example.

I get that, but these aren't used basses. These are "new" basses with slightly different finishes to the bulk of the Empires out there. And they aren't being sold by musicians, they're being sold by retailers with 1000s of sales. These are new basses, sold as new by shops.

[LLOYDWT]

16 minutes ago, bubinga5 said:

I think Japan are making reissues of these basses. They are legit.Made by whole im not sure.

Thanks @bubinga5. Is there anything online confirming this? I can't find any info on it anywhere, and I can only find them for sale on eBay and nowhere else.

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

8 minutes ago, LLOYDWT said:

Thanks @bubinga5. Is there anything online confirming this? I can't find any info on it anywhere, and I can only find them for sale on eBay and nowhere else.

Have you tried e-mailing Fodera directly? Every time I have done so they have responded quickly and with detail.

[LLOYDWT]

3 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

Have you tried e-mailing Fodera directly? Every time I have done so they have responded quickly and with detail.

Someone on TalkBass already tried that and received this response —

 

 

The one thing that email does show is that production had ceased. So where are these new basses coming from?

[Doctor J]

On a tangent, if you're spending 4 grand on an instrument and you're not getting the full-fat brand, made by the main people, something is seriously askew. 

[LLOYDWT]

3 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

On a tangent, if you're spending 4 grand on an instrument and you're not getting the full-fat brand, made by the main people, something is seriously askew. 

 

 

That's where we're at with the Ken Smith Burners. But at the £4K price point, yeah, I'd want something pretty special.

[Acebassmusic]

1 hour ago, LLOYDWT said:

Someone on TalkBass already tried that and received this response —

 

 

The one thing that email does show is that production had ceased. So where are these new basses coming from?

 

That mail was from 2018......Fodera may now see a gap in the market and have OK'd new production? Best drop them a line to check. As others have said they are pretty good at responding.

[LLOYDWT]

1 hour ago, Acebassmusic said:

 

That mail was from 2018......Fodera may now see a gap in the market and have OK'd new production? Best drop them a line to check. As others have said they are pretty good at responding.

 

I'm sceptical you fill a gap in the market by releasing a tiny amount of stock exclusively in Japan via eBay with absolutely zero advertising, marketing or acknowledgement of the legitimacy of the products being sold, all at vastly different price points. When Fodera built the Empires they marketed them well, finished the basses in NYC and they were distributed globally. A dozen dubious eBay ads does not a rerelease make. I don't want to waste Fodera's time when I'm almost certain that whatever the truth of the matter is, it has little or nothing to do with them.

[bubinga5]

4 hours ago, AndyTravis said:

Are they still doing them? 

No idea And. read it on TB

[funkypenguin]

11 hours ago, Acebassmusic said:

 

That mail was from 2018......Fodera may now see a gap in the market and have OK'd new production? Best drop them a line to check. As others have said they are pretty good at responding.

Fodera are great at responding to emails, and although they might not offer authentication on a specific instrument, when it comes to asking if these basses are still being produced I'm pretty sure they will come back with a swift yes or no. 

AFAIK they were discontinued a long time ago in favour of the standard series of instruments, and everything that now carries the Fodera name is now constructed entirely in Brooklyn.

 

[Sibob]

To be fair, are these sellers saying they are newly built? Or simply referring to the fact that they’ve not been owned before? Essentially ‘new old stock’.

 

Si

[LukeFRC]

eBay is full of resellers - you probably should check out DigiMart
Instruments marked S are new, and the japanese on some of the listings mention this is a limited revival of the original https://www.digimart.net/search?category12Id=359&keywordAnd=fodera&x=0&y=0 

[Belka]

I have enquired about this in the Fodera facebook group. These are new instruments which were made in a very limited batch in 2021. Apparently the production was 'supervised by Vinnie'. It's a bit odd as there is nothing at all about them on the official Fodera site. It was probably done as a favour to the old manufacturers and due to the small number of instruments made they weren't worried about making much of fuss about them, or just assumed they would only be sold on the domestic market in Japan. 

 

They are 'legitimate' in the sense that Fodera would have had to send them the proprietary electronics, pickups and tuning machines (I see that the bridges are Hipshots however), but the Fodera USA shop had nothing at all to do with their construction. They're unlikely to have Fodera serial numbers and in the case of an issue with them, I doubt Fodera would help in any way - you'd probably have to go to the place in Japan that made them.