Onboard Preamp vs Preamp pedal

[alexa3020]

In my everlasting quest to improve bass tone, I have recently stumbled across the John East J Tone preamp.

I have to say I'm really tempted to add this to my MIM jazz bass. I am wondering if there is any significant advantage of this over a preamp pedal in terms of sound?

I do have a MM stingray & really like the active EQ at my fingertips. I really like the idea of an active Jazz bass  - been quite tempted by the Sire V7, but I'm wondering if its a better move to modify my existing Jazz bass.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Alex

 

[Boodang]

Effectively the only difference between an onboard preamp and external pedal is that the onboard is going to have space and power restrictions. Of course, if you find an onboard that really suits the bass then you have a tailored preamp on hand and it does seem like a lot of preamps these days, like the East, are tailored to suit specific bass types.

My preference these days is passive, going out to my pedal board where the rest of the tone shaping takes place. But I do have a shelf full of old onboards that I've tried just waiting to be put back in once i change my mind... again!

[alexa3020]

That's good to know. I did wonder as active basses just seem to have a sound that is sometimes difficult to achieve with standard EQ - to me they seem to have a bit more top & bottom end. Perhaps something to do with caps on the pots of a passive?

With the John east preamps, I believe you can adjust the cap values to suit the bass.

Edited February 22, 2022 by alexa3020

[Boodang]

3 hours ago, alexa3020 said:

That's good to know. I did wonder as active basses just seem to have a sound that is sometimes difficult to achieve with standard EQ - to me they seem to have a bit more top & bottom end. Perhaps something to do with caps on the pots of a passive?

With the John east preamps, I believe you can adjust the cap values to suit the bass.

You have to bear in mind that a passive eq can only cut frequencies, a 'treble roll off' tone control being the simplest example. If you want to boost then you need an active preamp, which means powered and typically the use of opamps.

The only question really (and obviously!) is do you want the preamp in an external pedal or in the bass. Onboard, it's specific to that bass and always there, pedal can be used by any bass but it's an extra thing to take with you.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Boodang

[paul_5]

I’ve routed for, and fitted, MM pickups to all 3 of my basses, so it made sense for me to use an active EQ pedal for the times that I need the Stingray tone, saves 3 lots of circuitry and 3 lots of batteries.

[alexa3020]

Thanks for explaining. Interestingly I’d never think to use a preamp pedal in front of an amp or cab, as I’d use the amps eq (I’d just use it to send signal to FOH). 
But I have no problem using an active bass and the amps eq.

I guess my perception of how you should set up is a little off.
 

[itu]

9 hours ago, Boodang said:

Effectively the only difference between an onboard preamp and external pedal is that the onboard is going to have space and power restrictions. Of course, if you find an onboard that really suits the bass then you have a tailored preamp on hand and it does seem like a lot of preamps these days, like the East, are tailored to suit specific bass types.

 

This may become one long post... After reading this some may think I am into Hi-Fi. No, I am after expected functionality.

 

The power restriction is true, but I would say "partially". A preamp consumes energy depending on its components. There are many very good opamps (operational amplifiers), that consume only a little energy. Therefore I do not see the battery powered preamp to be so much less powerful than a power supply powered pedal. But it is true that a pedal may have extra features, because of the extra power capacity.

 

John East is making excellent preamps with very convincing specs. I have no reason to believe that his creations are already flashy without any extra power. On the other hand Alembic has been using the power hungry NE5534 (which is a neat opamp), and because of that they have used their external supply.

 

Modern components and layouts allow lots of parts in a small footprint PCBA. I do not see space is a restriction. OK, you want tubes, then the space and power are an issue.

 

About high impedance circuitry (passive, pots, caps...), it is very cheap, usually made with the cheapest quality parts, and mostly degrading the audio quality. But it is also the basic choice, and common in every price point. (Note: AJ Fodera has only the pickup and the output jack, but AJ surely connects his instruments to very high end boards, and does not want any degrading stuff between his fingers and the end result.) You want better performance, omit all pots and do the adjustments in the amp. This takes you to the amp, and on the fly adjustments sure are slower.

 

Lo-Z circuitry ("active") has few interesting features. One is, that the pots (most of which are of mediocre quality at best) do not have to be in the signal path. But, and here it comes again, most "active basses" are only partially "active". Pickups are followed by the blend pot (hi-Z; lo quality). Blend is followed by the vol pot (hi-Z, lo q). Then there is the simple preamp that can tweak tone somewhat. Artec's T&B pre costs about £20 and Sadowsky is around £200, but they are not mixers.

 

Yes, there are few true mixers like John East, but they are rare. Others that I know of, is one EMG, and the other is a US company that I have forgotten (VAT, shipping etc., you know).

 

Why would I need a mixer? Because the high impedance circuitry affects the performance of the pickups. When any hi-Z pot in the signal path is tweaked, the response of the pickup(s) is affected. For example the frequency response is reduced. That may be fine with you, but I am not happy with that. Not any more. I have heard the light. No... no... it was... how was it?

[Boodang]

Reducing the noise floor but keeping power consumption low is always a juggling act when designing onboard preamps. Having said that, the East preamps are great and the J retro really suits the jazz.

I like the passive interaction of single coils in parallel, something you don't get if you buffer the pickups before mixing. Interestingly the East preamp let's you choose between passive or buffered mixing which is a nice touch. 

So, my jazz has the double stacked passive volume/tone but my MM and P basses go straight to the output jack, no pots. 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Boodang

[Boodang]

3 hours ago, itu said:

...... You want better performance, omit all pots and do the adjustments in the amp. This takes you to the amp, and on the fly adjustments sure are slower.

On this score I do in fact omit the pots on my MM and P, but rather than adjust at the amp, all tone sculpting is done on the pedal board and happens instantly at the stomp of my clodhoppers.

[Downunderwonder]

16 hours ago, alexa3020 said:

I really like the idea of an active Jazz bass 

It's ok to gas a bit. I prefer not having to worry about batteries myself, but you do you.

[krispn]

You have more flexibility with a outboard pre and can swap to other units on a whim with no hassle  - A Tone Hammer will give you the 'Aguilar sound' in place of routing for and fitting the OBP-3, something like a Basswitch will be a solid studio grade eq with two bands of semi para eq (and a whole heap of other features), Nordstrand do an external pre based on their on board preamp, Alien Audio's Tidal EQ/Preamp pedal is a cracker too etc etc.

 

Depends on what you want really.

Edited February 25, 2022 by krispn

[BigRedX]

Haven't you already got a pre-amp in your amp?

[Boodang]

17 hours ago, alexa3020 said:

Thanks for explaining. Interestingly I’d never think to use a preamp pedal in front of an amp or cab, as I’d use the amps eq (I’d just use it to send signal to FOH). 
But I have no problem using an active bass and the amps eq.

I guess my perception of how you should set up is a little off.
 

I wouldn't say your perception is off, it's just common to think of pedals as 'effects' rather than preamps. I've come to the conclusion there is no 'one' perfect tone and variety is the spice of life, so now I have a pedal board with many tonal sculpting options and use active PA cabs instead of bass amps as I just need them to amplify.

[ezbass]

I have 4 passive basses and one Sadowsky preamp pedal, it was a lot cheaper than adding a preamp to all of them. The only downside is that adjustments on the fly are harder, but not impossible.

[Simon C]

If you are thinking of using both the jazz and the MM at the same gig through the same rig, you might want to think about how that would work. How would you set the preamp up for both the active MM and passive J? Use the same settings? Bypass the preamp with the MM? Fiddle on the fly?  2 active basses with controls under your finger tips feels like the simpler solution to me.  
 

[krispn]

The Basswitch has switchable A and B inputs/channels, one routed via the eq the other isn’t so you could have your active MM bass into that input and use the jazz into the preamp input which means you can match output volume, have the DI as well as the fx loops etc. One was up for sale on here recently but I think it shifted pretty quickly. It’s so much more than a preamp it’s a really useful tool designed for the working bassist who uses a couple of basses (I think the idea was for folks using both passive and active basses), who needed some eq and fx loops (there is both series and parallel options). 

[alexa3020]

I don’t think I’d use 2 different basses at the same gig. I’d just pick the one I wanted on the night. I do often switch between my mm & p bass depending on my mood. They’re completely different beasts. I like my to add a bit of compression and drive pedals to the p bass and a slightly scooped eq. The MM I generally go straight to amp with a flat-ish eq on the amp and control the eq from the bass.

thankfully (for my wallet) GAS has subsided on the active jazz bass - for now

[chris_b]

IMO a Jazz bass is the right bass to upgrade with a preamp.

 

John East preamps go very well with Bartolini pickups., so you might also need to upgrade those.

[paulo m]

John East's 'On board'  Pre amps are Stellar unit's     J Retro or J Tone' in a Jazz Bass with any of Nordstrand's NJ4 series pickups....  Passive Pickups with Active Electronics... An acknowledged high quality Combination... 

Outboard preamp's in my experience are subtley different tone wise' & the difference'can be immense' from a Quality unit such as a EBS MICROBASS II  right up to let's say a NOBLE UNIT.... & its interesting to see that ORIGIN have entered into this market recently with their BIG RIG offering's that I'm sure will be excellent units. 

Edited April 3, 2022 by paulo m

[jezzaboy]

I had a East in a Jazz a while back and it`s a great piece of kit. If he stuck his pre in a pedal, I would be in the que for one.