What amp/cabinet/PA for small venue/pub?

[DocTrucker]

Hi all,

 

Playing in a band that has been put together by my local music school (I'm an 40yr old learner...) and we play a few covers. Looking to get set up to play small venues later in the year.

 

Solid state bass amps and large speaker cabinets can be played at low volume with no detriment to sound quality right? I've got a digbeth preamp that does tone shaping and amp modelling so looking to put that straight into a power amp via mixer. Best look for a cheap 4x10 and 13 cabinet, or rely on a practice amp as a monitor and look at a single PA for the band? Worry about mix levels going forward. I felt I thoroughly stuffed a song last night in rehersal but the others were oblivious because the guitars were too loud!

 

This side of things is all new to me!

Edited March 10, 2022 by DocTrucker

[Boodang]

There's some very experienced players here on BC so I'm sure there'll be no shortage of advice! 

So, depends what you want from your backline... is it a case that you're going through a PA and it's just for monitoring or will your backline be how the audience hears you. Oh, and whatever your guitarists are using you'll need way more power/cabinet size than them!

So, for small gigs where I'm not going through a PA and I've got guitarists to content with... for a drummer who's hitting reasonably hard anything less than a 4x10, ported 15 or 2x12 is going to be buried, and that's with at least 350 watts (rms). If it's just monitoring I would say get the same and turn down as at least you have the option. You don't want to be running your backline at full tilt to keep up, it's nice to have some headroom, so don't be shy with power.

It doesn't have to be expensive, an old 4x10 cab and a suitably powerful amp off ebay, or BC marketplace, shouldn't be too much.

[Downunderwonder]

You are hinting that you are putting together an entire PA plus bass monitor package for this band. Or not? Wanting a cheap bass cab doesn't gell with building a PA so please explain.

 

There's bigger questions of what you are really trying to achieve here.

 

Beggars can't be choosers. If you were up for dropping £500 into a bass cab that would make recommendations easier.

 

There's two ways to run bands in small venues. Both require cooperation from guitarists and drummers. Either the guitar amps play to the venue under the PA vocals, or they are very much quieter and mic'd.

 

It is relatively harder to do bass on stage and in PA without the stage bass making mud out of the PA bass. It's hard to monitor with a cab unless the stage is all in shush mode. I have only played with one drummer I know for sure could play in a pub and need the PA for projection.

 

There's two kinds of guitarist. Those happy to monitor their mic'd 112 combo pointed at their head by using a stand, and 412 stack tools pulverizing the backs of their legs. 

[DocTrucker]

Good info there thanks.

 

I'll rephrase a little as I think I confused things. New band, playing covers for the foreseeable. First step for us is building up a set list for pub gigs. Unlikely to have house PA.

 

What do I need on stage for this? I currently have my Laney RB3 65W 12" and horn practice amp that will be woefully under powered. I'm lost on terminology. A 'backline' 4x10 or similar size cabinet - this is mainly for the audience right? Judging on above aiming for 400W to 500W power amp. Is the general rule to have speaker capacity above the amps rated power? Do these rigs become redundant when the bass is put through PA systems, or do they then become huge monitors?

 

My hearing is bad. Asymetric and high frequency loss, and can't wear in ear plugs/phones, or hearing aids. Despite the odd appearance I'm likely to be sporting drum isolation headphones. I plan to use these as my monitor, so where we have no room PA I will kind of have my own PA on my head with mini mixer desk beside me somewhere! I've seen a beringher 1002 mixer thay may just suit my needs.

Edited March 10, 2022 by DocTrucker

[Lozz196]

For pub gigs, unless spending a lot of money for the specific purpose of putting the whole band through the PA, usually the PA is vocals and possibly kick-drum (for a bit of presence). As such I`d agree, a 410 or 212 and a 500watt head will be plenty to handle the bass for the whole venue/audience. In general a 500watt head will put out 300/350watts at 8ohms so I`d be looking at an 8ohm 410 or 212 that is rated at 400watts or above.

 

Depending on sound required and budget there`s a great load of gear out there, Ashdown is my fave, and available for not much dosh if getting used gear. Similar is Hartke, Peavey, Laney, all be picked up for reasonable funds and all more than good enough for the job - I`ve toured all over the UK and a fair bit of Europe with my Ashdown gear and never had any issues at all.

 

Re the rigs through PAs, well unless the PA has very good monitoring, or you decide to go in ear monitoring, then your rig is still your on stage sound. Unless you can wholly trust the PA & monitors it`s nice to have a rig that is sufficient for the whole band to hear on stage. 

[DocTrucker]

It's getting clearer thanks!

 

I'll aim for 500W solid state power amp (or one with a solid state/tube pre amp where the tube can be wound back) and 4x10 cab. Reliable budget ranges and used sections will be searched thoroughly!

[Downunderwonder]

Nearly all 410 cabs beam badly. This means the upper mids and highs are much less audible outside of the space in line with the front of the cab.

 

Barefaced make theirs with a filter so only one side produces the mid/highs getting around the side by side interference.

[DocTrucker]

12 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

Nearly all 410 cabs beam badly.

 

Ok, hadn't even considered that as a possibility! Without climbing into premium ranges (Not saying Barefaced is, or isn't premium - not got that far down my research line yet) what would your suggestion be for a jack-of-all-trades style rig which will see me through up until I perhaps begin to favour a specific playing style or music genre? Needless to say we'd be aiming for volumes appropriate for the venue, so unless we land in something like a labour club then the amps aren't likely to be running close to full capacity.

 

Perhaps 2 cheaper 4x10 cabs at an angle granting the option for some stereo effects?

[Downunderwonder]

A pair of 210 stacked tall

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O

O

O

thusly. Don't stand right in front of it.

[Boodang]

There's lots of fancy options at the premium end but to be honest at this stage a cheap and nasty 4x10 will do the job admirably and get you heard. 

Back when I was using Trace Elliot gear the 2 rigs that that always pushed it out to the audience were a 4x10 with a 350 head, and a 1x15 double ported combo with a 300 amp stage.

Two instances stick out for me when I was using them... we were doing a gig in a pub car park at the edge of a park that had an open air festival. Half way through the set this guy comes over (their sound engineer apparently) and asks if we could turn down the bass or point it somewhere else as it was cutting across the audience in the park. An example of the focused 4x10 projection but in fairness it never failed to be heard in a venue when we didn't have a PA. 

The 1x15 combo was double ported and had a fat boomy sound but it did bounce around a venue and I wouldn't say it was very hifi but you were guaranteed to be heard (fyi their non ported and lower wattage combos don't achieve this). Was at a medium gig where I was using it as a monitor but had to keep turning it down as it was pushing out to the audience. 

Both fairly cheap now but there are obviously plenty of other options. 

[Bassfinger]

Perhaps youre over thinking this? Small venues like pubs I use my Orange Crush 100. No need for monitors or owt set up like that in somewhere small and tight. Anything larger we go through the PA and sub.

[tauzero]

A decent 1x12 (eg. Barefaced Big Baby 2), or two 1x12s stacked. 500W+ amp.

[DocTrucker]

26 minutes ago, Bassfinger said:

Perhaps youre over thinking this? Small venues like pubs I use my Orange Crush 100.

Scouting options so I can spend my hard earned as efficiently as possible. Never considered stage amplification in any great detail so this is largely all new to me.

 

I've only got a 65W practice amp and a pair of loud guitarists in the band, so some spend required.

[Boodang]

Looks like there's some good option in the BC marketplace at the moment, including some trace elliot stuff. I noticed there's an old TE 4x10 combo from a Hobgoblin shop in Manchester for £150.... comes with a free hernia apparently. 

[warwickhunt]

1 hour ago, Downunderwonder said:

A pair of 210 stacked tall

O

O

O

O

thusly. Don't stand right in front of it.

 

This...

[Nicko]

I've been playing pub gigs for around 10 years using a 250 Watt amp and a 2 x 10 cab - its rarely been up above about 30% volume and I've often been told I'm too loud.  I've never struggled for volume in a reasonably loud 2 guitar band. 

 

The key to having enough volume for the bass is to control the guitarists who always think the louder they are the better the sound.  They're wrong.  For small gigs don't even think about miking up the drums.

 

 I had a period of going direct from the amp via a DI out though the PA but the band thought it sounded better with a dedicated bass cab.   

[Downunderwonder]

Philosophically, does one need to experience being far too freaking loud to appreciate being just loud enough?

 

In my musical yoof we were just a bit too loud and we really had to get down on the Marshall stack guy to rein it in. The other guitarist was older and wiser and used a small combo mic'd into the PA. The young guy thought this was the devil's work.

 

My Trace rig was as loud as it would go. The only other way would have been for me to get another cabinet, then we would have been way far too freaking loud for the pub.

4 hours ago, Nicko said:

250 Watt amp and a 2 x 10 cab - its rarely been up above about 30% volume and I've often been told I'm too loud.  I've never struggled for volume in a reasonably loud 2 guitar band

This is indeed loud enough for a pub. It's lovely when everyone is on the same wavelength. The dancers have enough to get them going and the non dancers can still converse without screaming in each other's ears. The booze flows and everyone has a great time.

 

I used to help out the odd band with sound. One outfit had the whole band piped into the best PA in town in one of the smaller venues. They were very polished with very intricate tuneful in your face metal. One number in and all the faders except vocals were off.

 

They brought in a steady stream of punters who left after one drink. If they had all stayed for two or three drinks the joint would have been hopping.

[Lozz196]

I’ve found that having a way too loud amp but then setting it to the volume of the unamplified drums works a treat. In an old punk covers band the two guitarists had 100watt valve amps with 412s, I had a 400watt amp with a 412. We were never too loud as our drummer played with a light touch, but the depth of the sound was really nice, a full but not over loud sound. We did have a few panicked looks when we turned up to venues the first time but they calmed down when we sound checked.

[jezzaboy]

On 10/03/2022 at 11:58, DocTrucker said:

Scouting options so I can spend my hard earned as efficiently as possible. Never considered stage amplification in any great detail so this is largely all new to me.

 

I've only got a 65W practice amp and a pair of loud guitarists in the band, so some spend required.

I would get the loud guitarist`s sorted out first. No need for this these days. If you are too loud, not only do you p*ss off punters and some venue owners but unless you use decent hearing protection, you will knacker your hearing. This last point is one of the most important things to do right from the start.

 

My last band had 2 x Marshall 100 watt toting guitar players and it was murder trying to get them to turn down and now one of them has tinitus badly.

 

 

[Boodang]

3 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Philosophically, does one need to experience being far too freaking loud to appreciate being just loud enough?

 

In my musical yoof we were just a bit too loud and we really had to get down on the Marshall stack guy to rein it in. The other guitarist was older and wiser and used a small combo mic'd into the PA. The young guy thought this was the devil's work.

 

My Trace rig was as loud as it would go. The only other way would have been for me to get another cabinet, then we would have been way far too freaking loud for the pub.

This is indeed loud enough for a pub. It's lovely when everyone is on the same wavelength. The dancers have enough to get them going and the non dancers can still converse without screaming in each other's ears. The booze flows and everyone has a great time.

 

I used to help out the odd band with sound. One outfit had the whole band piped into the best PA in town in one of the smaller venues. They were very polished with very intricate tuneful in your face metal. One number in and all the faders except vocals were off.

 

They brought in a steady stream of punters who left after one drink. If they had all stayed for two or three drinks the joint would have been hopping.

Actually remembered being in a band, long ago, when we were far too loud (you could see the audience physically recoil!), but we were so used to it we didn't realise. Rehearsals & gigs can literally deafen you to the reality of the volumes generated. 

Many years later it's a different deal but my ears will never recover their youthfulness!

Edited March 11, 2022 by Boodang

[DocTrucker]

Yeah, hearing protection is a big thing for me. I've a collection of ear issues including asymetric hearing loss with a big drop in high frequency loss on my right side with associated tinitus, and a fluctuating mid-high loss on the same side.

 

Can't wear in-ears, but sport drum isolation headphones. I'm using these as my monitor for the first time this evening.

 

 

[Phil Starr]

You might want to get this moved to Amps and Cabs where the more nerdy of us hang out

 

Before we can advise you I think you need to indicate a budget. Tell us a bit more about the band (line up, commitment funding etc) If you are a bunch of well off 40 somethings for whom this is a serious hobby you have a lot of choices. If you are the only one with your hand in your pocket you might make different choices. If no-one else in the band is interested or prepared to work collectively then your choices will be limited by their co-operation.

 

If i was starting from  scratch I would love to start with all of the sound being properly mixed and going through the PA with minimum sound on stage. The band will sound better, you'll all hear everything better and you'll avoid everyone ending up with hearing problems like yours and also mine.

 

If everyone else is committed to their own personal guitar amps and you have a drummer then you are probably condemned to 100db plus on stage, congested sound and having to buy a bass amp that will match the drums in volume as a minimum. The good news is that the headphone monitoring means at least you will be able to hear and not get too much extra hearing loss. There are any number of amps that push out 300/500W and these with a decent 1x12 or 2x10 as a minimum will be loud enough to match the drums as a rule of thumb anyway.

 

One of the first things to consider is a mixer for your band's PA. If you are wearing headphones you'll want your own mix, as you've already realised. You can do this with your own mixer as you've suggested but I'd strongly advise not to go for what is a bodge solution. All the modern digital mixers will give you the option of every member of the band having their own monitoring mix (unless you are bigger than a six piece) Bought new that is around £350 your own sub mixer will cost probably over £100 and you'll have other expenses in splitting the signal to the PA. Someone will still have to buy the main mixer so it's probably going to cost more.

 

As to PA most of us have a pair of powered 1x12+horns on poles which cover most small to medium gigs.

 

So tell us the budget etc and we can give better advice. No point telling you what you can get for £1,000 if your budget is £500