Performance Anxiety

[ambient]

5 hours ago, Sweeneythebass said:

Performance, sporting or otherwise is performance. Right? 

 

Exactly

[Guest]

Not necessarily related to music performance but Matt Abrahams’ “Speaking up without freaking out” is great and has lots of good advice and tips for coping with public speaking, which (having had to do both, there are many parallels). 

It may be blasphemy but I never really enjoyed gigging. I loved playing but all the waiting around, relying on others to turn up/have their kit/can remember the songs/unscrupulous venue owners and getting paid.

 

My worst experience was jazz gigs with no charts where either I had never heard the songs before, or they were in a different key, 1.5 times faster and my ears decided not to work. Definitely a few rabbit in the headlights moments

[Woodinblack]

57 minutes ago, sprocketflup said:

Nip home and do it. In fact, you could do other things as well!

 

No, I don't get a chance, I have to set up the lights, pa, everyones sound and get everything done while listening tto the guitarist playing pentatonic widdling a heavy volumes with a break for 'are we ready for a sound check' every 5 minutes.

 

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, 4000 said:

Well I’m certainly not going to use you! 😂

 

You appear the have missed the emojis, and implying that I may be unpleasant to people because I’m hard on myself is greatly appreciated, as is throwing a strop when things don’t measure up (when I’m actually more likely to be utterly down). I’m actually quite capable of measuring people by their standards and not mine. 
 

Thanks anyway. 🙄

 

 

 

You couldn't afford me 😉.

 

I did not imply that you may be unpleasant. If you took it that way, that's on you.

 

Look, I get it. We care about what we do, but nobody has the right to demand/expect perfection (to quote you, "If it’s not perfect, it’s not good enough"). Dress it up any way you like and that's still arrogant. We are all flawed and working on it. It's the journey that counts, not the destination. 

 

Remember, unpleasant does not necessarily mean nasty. Suppose your band plays a gig. It goes well. Not perfect, but well. The band is happy and then you appear with a long face because it wasn't "perfect" and spoil everyone's mood. You may not have a go at anyone, but do you consider that "pleasant"? It doesn't matter whether you're "utterly down" or having a go. The effect on others is pretty much the same. Put yourself in their shoes. They do their best and old misery guts just pulls a face because it wasn't "good enough" for him.

 

A lovely old Jewish guy I worked with many years ago once told me, "Don't take it so heavy". He meant life itself and he was right. 

[Newfoundfreedom]

3 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

Always remember (unless you are a solo artist, which is unlikely given that we play bass) that people are not there to see YOU. You are not the centre of anyone's universe (save perhaps your own) and an audience will focus its attention on the frontman/woman. Unless you are the main or only singer in addition to being the bass player, you will be largely ignored. Concentrate your attention on your colleagues and ensure you work well with them. Mistakes happen. Once they have, they're in the past and there's nothing you can do about them, so forget them. Don't obsess about them and screw up the next thing because of it.

 

The only times I am nervous when performing are occasions when I know I'm not familiar enough with the material and I'm winging it. The solution to that - more/better practice - is obvious. Use charts/music if necessary or if you are doing a last minute job where you have not had a chance to learn the stuff. It doesn't have to be on a visible music stand. Charts written large can go on the floor at your feet or on a monitor wedge in front of you. An aide memoire placed on top of your rig, which you can glance at between numbers to remind you what's coming next, is helpful, too.

 

It's music. It ain't brain surgery and nobody will die if you get it wrong.

 

All perfectly true and logical. Unfortunately, when dealing with nerves and anxiety, logic plays no part. I can have the song lists, know the material inside out, get on stage, and literally can't feel my fingers, or I'm shaking so badly it's almost impossible to hold down a tight rythm. The logical part of my brain already knows that all of this is utterly ridiculous. But I'm sure everyone with any kind of phobia knows in their rational mind that it's pretty ridiculous. It doesn't stop them being terrified. Not that I'm saying I'm at the same level as someone with a phobia, only that's it's just as uncontrollable by applying logic to the situation. 

[Newfoundfreedom]

Another thing that people don't seen to be getting, is that the anxiety is nothing to do with the fear of getting something wrong (not for me at least) I can quite easily laugh off mistakes, as others have said, nobody dies, it's just not that important. But that doesn't stop the anxiety being almost crippling. 

 

The only part of I gig I really enjoy is the very last song. It's almost a feeling of getting away with it. 

 

There's something called imposter syndrome. Where you always feel like you're winging it and getting away with it, rather than actually doing it on your own merits. For me, it's more akin to that. It's like waiting to be found out. 

[4000]

27 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

 

You couldn't afford me 😉.

 

I did not imply that you may be unpleasant. If you took it that way, that's on you.

 

Look, I get it. We care about what we do, but nobody has the right to demand/expect perfection (to quote you, "If it’s not perfect, it’s not good enough"). Dress it up any way you like and that's still arrogant. We are all flawed and working on it. It's the journey that counts, not the destination. 

 

Remember, unpleasant does not necessarily mean nasty. Suppose your band plays a gig. It goes well. Not perfect, but well. The band is happy and then you appear with a long face because it wasn't "perfect" and spoil everyone's mood. You may not have a go at anyone, but do you consider that "pleasant"? It doesn't matter whether you're "utterly down" or having a go. The effect on others is pretty much the same. Put yourself in their shoes. They do their best and old misery guts just pulls a face because it wasn't "good enough" for him.

 

A lovely old Jewish guy I worked with many years ago once told me, "Don't take it so heavy". He meant life itself and he was right. 

I say to myself, “if it’s not perfect, it’s not good enough”, not to anyone else. Of course I never achieve it, but that is the issue I was pointing out as an issue that I have to deal with. How is that arrogant? It’s not something I’m happy with, it’s my own little cross to bear.

 

Turning your argument on its head, what happens if a gig - or rehearsal or recording - is a shambles and someone else in the band is perfectly happy and I’m not? Should I just suck that up? If that’s the case, how does the band get better? One of the guys in the band credits my positive criticism with upping his game. I would hope that there’s a balance to be met. But that doesn’t mean I’m not still going to be hard on myself. 
 

I get the impression from some of your posts that you seem to have issues with me for some reason - it’s not the first time you’ve said I come across as arrogant, which anyone who knows me well would be pretty quick to disagree with - and if the case then that’s fair enough. And maybe you don’t feel that way and I’m wrong. But just like I don’t know you, you don’t know me, so let’s just leave it at that yes? 🙄

[Dan Dare]

23 minutes ago, 4000 said:

I get the impression from some of your posts that you seem to have issues with me for some reason - it’s not the first time you’ve said I come across as arrogant

 

I don't recall speaking/exchanging views with you previously, but that could be due to my Alzheimer's. I do tend to type what I think, forget it and move on to the next exciting episode of my life - not taking it too heavy and all that.

 

If everyone else is happy and only you think something is "a shambles", perhaps they have a point and you're blowing things out of proportion. Nothing wrong with trying to make something better, but acting as if something is an unmitigated disaster when it isn't is just being dramatic. As for "If that’s the case, how does the band get better?", the answer is that everyone else has pride in what they do and will work to make it so. It is arrogant to presume that only you can see what is wrong with something or what needs to be improved.

 

If this isn't the first time I've suggested you appear arrogant, maybe have a think about it? Often, those who know and like us won't say what they feel for fear of causing upset/spoiling a friendship or working relationship. A stranger's perspective can be valuable. 

 

I frequently - in fact almost always - drive home from a job or rehearsal thinking, "Not bad - x wasn't quite right, y needs improvement, I need to work on z. However, overall, it was a positive and enjoyable experience. Mustn't grumble. Onwards and upwards". 

 

You never know when it's going to be your last. I'm 70 next year and a number of people I've known are no longer around. I'm going to damned well enjoy however much I have left. If you're determined not to, you're only cheating yourself.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Dan Dare

[4000]

1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

 

I don't recall speaking/exchanging views with you previously, but that could be due to my Alzheimer's. I do tend to type what I think, forget it and move on to the next exciting episode of my life - not taking it too heavy and all that.

 

If everyone else is happy and only you think something is "a shambles", perhaps they have a point and you're blowing things out of proportion. Nothing wrong with trying to make something better, but acting as if something is an unmitigated disaster when it isn't is just being dramatic. As for "If that’s the case, how does the band get better?", the answer is that everyone else has pride in what they do and will work to make it so. It is arrogant to presume that only you can see what is wrong with something or what needs to be improved.

 

If this isn't the first time I've suggested you appear arrogant, maybe have a think about it? Often, those who know and like us won't say what they feel for fear of causing upset/spoiling a friendship or working relationship. A stranger's perspective can be valuable. 

 

I frequently - in fact almost always - drive home from a job or rehearsal thinking, "Not bad - x wasn't quite right, y needs improvement, I need to work on z. However, overall, it was a positive and enjoyable experience. Mustn't grumble. Onwards and upwards". 

 

You never know when it's going to be your last. I'm 70 next year and a number of people I've known are no longer around. I'm going to damned well enjoy however much I have left. If you're determined not to, you're only cheating yourself.

So we’re not going to leave it then? Oh well. I tried.🙄

 

Who said everyone else was happy? You’re projecting again. And not everyone, in any sphere, takes pride in what they’re doing, I don’t know where you’ve got that from. I’ve seen all sorts of people in all sorts of jobs and roles who take no pride in their work whatsoever; in fact I deal with it on a daily basis. It even used to be my full-time job, analysing and fixing the mistakes of others. Regardless, I like to encourage people to aim high, as I try to myself, within whatever limitations we all have. You may not get there, but if you get half way there that’s something. You’re doing exactly what you seem to be trying to imply I’m doing, which is measuring everyone with your yardstick. In the band, two of us write the songs. I’m one of those people, so I do think my opinion matters, particularly when performing my material. But I let stuff go all the time. However you seem to be advocating a lowest common denominator approach, which I’m afraid I simply don’t believe in. 
 

With regards to the arrogance thing, you’re judging me by how you perceive stuff that I write on an Internet forum, where nuance is often lost. Maybe I don’t always get my point across with the nuance that I intend. Again, I try but I likely often fail. But maybe you should also have a think and see if you’re reading between the lines a bit. FWIW I have loads of people around me who will quite happily tell me if I’m being a knob. You don’t live where I live and get away with that without being told and I also happily encourage people to do so.

 

Im 58, and as I’ve already stated, suffer with chronic and crippling anxiety, depression and PTSD. I would love nothing more than to “not take it so heavy”, as I’m sure would many other people in similar positions, including some of my friends who were in the Forces (I wasn’t, just to be clear) and are now struggling with severe PTSD. Unfortunately that isn’t an option for them or for me, although it’s something I’m trying to work towards. If I truly was arrogant, surely I wouldn’t have admitted I needed help in the first place, or come on here saying how terrified I often am when performing live. My friend’s son committed suicide aged 21, two years ago. I’m sure he would have liked to “not take it so heavy” too, as would all the many others like him. It’s an ideal obviously, but for some it’s simply not that easy. 

You mentioned earlier about how insignificant making music is compared to all the other stuff going on in the world. But for me, and others like me, it’s the coping mechanism that enables us to deal with all that stuff. Which is why it matters so much to me, because without it I am truly lost. That’s why I care about it so much; that’s why to me it is so important. Because it’s one of the few things that makes everything else bearable. 
 

Also, when it comes down to it, and as you touched on earlier, I take pride in what I do and how well I at least try to do it. If you take pride then there’s a level below which you don’t want things to drop. Of course that’s going to vary from person to person. I completely understand - and frequently do - compromise. But to go beyond compromise to where you’re actively unhappy with something? Why should you drop your standards below a level that is acceptable to you simply because someone else has a lower standard? In the case of my band they’re playing my music, after all. They’re close friends who have known me for decades and are perfectly free to opt out if they’re not happy with how I see things. If they wish to, that’s not a problem. 
 

And ultimately I have to agree with Alan Garner and his grandad, who once said, “Always take as long as the job tells you! It will be there when you’re not and you don’t want people saying: What fool made that?”😉

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by 4000

[4000]

Although what any of that has to do with performance anxiety, I really have no idea……🙄

[Sweeneythebass]

Think we’ve been slightly derailed! Performance Anxiety and critical appraisal of a performance are completely different.
 

I’ve had recorded live performances where I’ve suffered no anxiety and then listened back and thought that bit was ok, the next  bit was awesome and then this next section was downright dog turd. No anxiety listening back either. 

[zbd1960]

Adding to my earlier comments... the odd thing is I used to have to give presentations quite a lot, often technical, and often to large groups. That never used to bother me. I suspect because I was on 'safe' territory and I wasn't fazed by anything anyone was likely to throw at me by way of questions. 

[4000]

1 minute ago, Sweeneythebass said:

Think we’ve been slightly derailed!

You can say that again!😂

[Dan Dare]

26 minutes ago, 4000 said:

Although what any of that has to do with performance anxiety, I really have no idea……🙄

 

It has everything to do with it. Whatever we do, we take it all with us. All the emotional baggage, all the trauma, everything that we carry around. People may try to tell themselves that they can compartmentalise their existence, but it simply isn't possible. There's always what psychologists refer to as "leakage". We may be able to put things on the back burner when we go shopping or do something that demands little of us, but when we play music or create art or do something that matters to us, we tend to feel vulnerable and not in control because we are putting ourselves on the line. And that's precisely the time when it happens.

 

If we are looking to music (or anything else) to be "one of the few things that makes everything else bearable", we are asking too much of it. It will never make up for what is wrong in our lives. Nothing can.

 

This thread may be getting a bit too heavy or being derailed, but the short answer is (imho obviously) that there is no quick, easy fix for what we call "performance anxiety", because it's a manifestation of what lies within us.

[4000]

3 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

 

 

If we are looking to music (or anything else) to be "one of the few things that makes everything else bearable", we are asking too much of it. It will never make up for what is wrong in our lives. Nothing can.

Again, you’re running away with it. The clue is in the word “bearable”. 😉

[ambient]

3 hours ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

Another thing that people don't seen to be getting, is that the anxiety is nothing to do with the fear of getting something wrong (not for me at least) I can quite easily laugh off mistakes, as others have said, nobody dies, it's just not that important. But that doesn't stop the anxiety being almost crippling. 

 

The only part of I gig I really enjoy is the very last song. It's almost a feeling of getting away with it. 

 

There's something called imposter syndrome. Where you always feel like you're winging it and getting away with it, rather than actually doing it on your own merits. For me, it's more akin to that. It's like waiting to be found out. 

 

Exactly. There are various reasons why the anxiety is there.

[Dr.Dave]

Take from this what you will but I can't wait to get on stage. I feel at home there , far more so than being in an audience. I feel like an outsider in an audience. In pretty much all parts of my life I'm a better creator than I am a consumer so it's not surprising I'm more comfortable on stage . No fear of performing to any size crowd - slight anxiety of letting fellow players down but it's negligible to be honest.

[ambient]

8 hours ago, 4000 said:

I’ve always suffered dreadfully with performance anxiety/stage fright. I’m glad you’ve pointed out that it’s nothing to do with preparation, because I’ve continually read people saying that if you’re prepared you’ll be fine, and speaking personally it has absolutely nothing to do with it. There have been many instances where I could play everything I need to in my sleep, back to front and inside out, and yet soon as I get on stage I’m a complete nervous wreck and everything goes out of the window. It is absolutely about managing the heightened stress, which for people like me can be off the chart, completely out of proportion to what is actually happening.  I’ll add that I suffer with chronic anxiety and PTSD anyway. 
 

I’d be interested to know what worked for you because I haven’t found anything yet - other than the aforementioned alcohol, which I try to avoid as much as possible - that helps. Breathing exercises, actual pre-gig exercise, meditation; none of them work for me.
 

A couple of years ago we did a local gig as a support for something that was being filmed by the BBC. We weren’t shown in the end, but I was utterly terrified. I was frozen. I could barely move my fingers and the experience was hideous. How I got through it I don’t know. I’ll add here that I hate anything to do with adrenalin, which makes me feel physically ill. The buzz that most people get playing live is not what I experience at all, it’s more like being in a car crash.  

 

Your physical symptoms were very similar to mine. I would take to the stage, along with a random assembly of other students to perform the part I'd learned, and literally shake, or freeze. My hands wouldn't work properly, my mind would go blank. I twas a group performance, all individually being marked and critiqued by different lecturers. My poor performance generally effected that of the other students.

 

My GP prescribed Propranolol which helped enormously with the physical symptoms, it counteracted the effects of too much adrenalin.

 

For the psychological effects I used a mix of cognitive behavioural therapy, yoga and meditation/relaxation. I tried hypnotherapy too, that didn't work for me. 

 

The Alexander technique is also apparently useful.

 

Barry Green's book leads you through the steps of cognitive behavioural therapy. He describes there being two 'selfs'. Self 1 is the individual, self 2 is the negative chatter taking place in the brain. The nagging voice telling you that you're no good, you're going to f**k up, you shouldn't really be there, etc.

 

A friend used to have terrible performance anxiety that he cured by taking up improvised drama.

 

 

 

 

[4000]

1 minute ago, ambient said:

 

Your physical symptoms were very similar to mine. I would take to the stage, along with a random assembly of other students to perform the part I'd learned, and literally shake, or freeze. My hands wouldn't work properly, my mind would go blank. I twas a group performance, all individually being marked and critiqued by different lecturers. My poor performance generally effected that of the other students.

 

My GP prescribed Propranolol which helped enormously with the physical symptoms, it counteracted the effects of too much adrenalin.

 

For the psychological effects I used a mix of cognitive behavioural therapy, yoga and meditation/relaxation. I tried hypnotherapy too, that didn't work for me. 

 

The Alexander technique is also apparently useful.

 

Barry Green's book leads you through the steps of cognitive behavioural therapy. He describes there being two 'selfs'. Self 1 is the individual, self 2 is the negative chatter taking place in the brain. The nagging voice telling you that you're no good, you're going to f**k up, you shouldn't really be there, etc.

 

A friend used to have terrible performance anxiety that he cured by taking up improvised drama.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the post.
 

FWIW I’ve had several courses of CBT and it has never worked for me, in much the same way as meditation sadly hasn’t. It was during my last course of CBT that they identified that many of my issues appeared to be more related to my PTSD and thus sent me for EMDR therapy. As people who have suffered with PTSD may be aware, the ridiculous adrenal response in that is one of the many challenging aspects. 
 

How often do you take the Propranolol? 

[dclaassen]

I prep a lot of students for auditions. Live auditions are traumatic for many, but it helps if they can keep their thoughts in the now and let go of perfection.  Recorded auditions are much harder on them…they know they can redo it and are obsessed with solving every issue, no matter how small. I think live performance is like a live audition…you do the best you are prepared to do and let the errors go, with a mental note to work on it later. Then, I relax and have fun making music with the band.

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

I regard myself as someone who doesn't suffer from performance anxiety. I know people who do and it's not pleasant to witness, let alone suffer from.

The closest I'll get to being a little twitchy will probably be about this time next month having accepted back to back gigs with a band I've not played with before, won't have rehearsed with before and I've not played about 50% of the songs in their set before. Should be interesting.

[Newfoundfreedom]

The weird thing is, is that a that a lot of people who are perfectly comfortable in social situations, are very uncomfortable when performing on stage, and vice versa. I definitely come across as loud, and even obnoxious in social situations (as some have you may have gathered from my posts on here 😂) Growing up I had more friends than I could ever count, and I can definitely hold my own against anyone, in any social situation, whatever the conversation. I'm a proper big brash northern lad. I was doorman(bouncer)for several years, and I'm built like the proverbial brick privy, so there's very little that can phase me when it comes to confontation, but put me on stage in front of a crowd of people, and I'll go to pieces every time.

 

Conversely, my wife, (who is the singer in my band,) was an awkward child with very few friends, and will generally shrink away, or at least be extremely quiet in social environments, but she's an absolute supernova when you put her on a stage in front of a crowd. I honestly feel so proud of her, and embarrassed at my own failings at the same time. 

Luckily the two things balance each other out. 

Honestly, I can't get my head around it. Why anyone so brash would be so timid, and why anyone so timid should shine so brightly in front of a crowd. 

As I said earlier, this is even the case in front of a small group of friends. 

Luckily I'm just the bass player so, on balance I can sit back and let my amazing wife Impress the audience. Because if it was up to me. Well.......

[Barking Spiders]

54 minutes ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

The weird thing is, is that a that a lot of people who are perfectly comfortable in social situations, are very uncomfortable when performing on stage, and vice versa. I definitely come across as loud, and even obnoxious in social situations (as some have you may have gathered from my posts on here 😂) Growing up I had more friends than I could ever count, and I can definitely hold my own against anyone, in any social situation, whatever the conversation. I'm a proper big brash northern lad. I was doorman(bouncer)for several years, and I'm built like the proverbial brick privy, so there's very little that can phase me when it comes to confontation, but put me on stage in front of a crowd of people, and I'll go to pieces every time.

 

Conversely, my wife, (who is the singer in my band,) was an awkward child with very few friends, and will generally shrink away, or at least be extremely quiet in social environments, but she's an absolute supernova when you put her on a stage in front of a crowd. I honestly feel so proud of her, and embarrassed at my own failings at the same time. 

Luckily the two things balance each other out. 

Honestly, I can't get my head around it. Why anyone so brash would be so timid, and why anyone so timid should shine so brightly in front of a crowd. 

As I said earlier, this is even the case in front of a small group of friends. 

Luckily I'm just the bass player so, on balance I can sit back and let my amazing wife Impress the audience. Because if it was up to me. Well.......

What you say about your missus reminds me of Prince. In a class of his own as a performer but by all accounts a shy and private man.

 

A lot also depends on the size of band. Nerves used to get to me in any size up to a 5 piece. I've also played in larger funk and world fusion combos of 8-12 and then I had no problem. I'd have never made the grade in a trio.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Barking Spiders

[Newfoundfreedom]

22 minutes ago, Barking Spiders said:

What you say about your missus reminds me of Prince. In a class of his own as a performer but by all accounts a shy and private man.

 

A lot also depends on the size of band. Nerves used to get to me in any size up to a 5 piece. I've also played in larger funk and world fusion combos of 8-12 and then I had no problem. I'd have never made the grade in a trio.

Yeah. There's definitely some truth in that. I think maybe it's a safety in numbers thing. My last band was a six piece covers band. So much less likely to be singled out. Weirdly, I was often approached after gigs and told how great the bass sounded when I didn't think anyone would even notice me in the mix. Now we're a four piece originals band, I have much more opportunity to shine, but I feel far more exposed. 

[dodge_bass]

13 hours ago, ambient said:

 

Your physical symptoms were very similar to mine. I would take to the stage, along with a random assembly of other students to perform the part I'd learned, and literally shake, or freeze. My hands wouldn't work properly, my mind would go blank. I twas a group performance, all individually being marked and critiqued by different lecturers. My poor performance generally effected that of the other students.

 

My GP prescribed Propranolol which helped enormously with the physical symptoms, it counteracted the effects of too much adrenalin.

 

For the psychological effects I used a mix of cognitive behavioural therapy, yoga and meditation/relaxation. I tried hypnotherapy too, that didn't work for me. 

 

The Alexander technique is also apparently useful.

 

Barry Green's book leads you through the steps of cognitive behavioural therapy. He describes there being two 'selfs'. Self 1 is the individual, self 2 is the negative chatter taking place in the brain. The nagging voice telling you that you're no good, you're going to f**k up, you shouldn't really be there, etc.

 

A friend used to have terrible performance anxiety that he cured by taking up improvised drama.

 

 

 

 

 

Inner Game of Music is excellent as you note. So is Effortless Mastery by Kenny Werner.