Performance Anxiety

[Dan Dare]

15 hours ago, 4000 said:

Again, you’re running away with it. The clue is in the word “bearable”. 😉

 

In view of your subsequent post (see below), I rather think I'm not "running away with it". You say that many of your issues appeared to be related to something more profound or serious. That was exactly the point I was making. It's of little use to try to put a sticking plaster on the outward manifestation of some deeper malaise.

 

14 hours ago, 4000 said:

FWIW I’ve had several courses of CBT and it has never worked for me, in much the same way as meditation sadly hasn’t. It was during my last course of CBT that they identified that many of my issues appeared to be more related to my PTSD and thus sent me for EMDR therapy. As people who have suffered with PTSD may be aware, the ridiculous adrenal response in that is one of the many challenging aspects. 

 

[Nail Soup]

I don't have any performance anxiety for playing gigs... as singer, guitarist or bassist. Even solo performances.

People always say that it is the opposite to how I am in 'real life'. In real life I am an introvert, but on stage I come across as extrovert.

 

But I feel that on stage I have licence to perform. Maybe not so in real life.

[Bassfinger]

Thats just like me Nail Soup.

 

In real life im generally pretty quiet. Meeting new people makes me nervous, stepping into the boxing ring used to make me nervous (and rightly so, because I was a dreadful pugilist), all sorts of things in daily life make me nervous...

 

Except gigging. It's what I love doing, and it's the one thing that draws attention to me that gives me a frisson of excitement instead of a dose of jangly nerves.

[4000]

On 11/03/2022 at 10:39, Dan Dare said:

 

In view of your subsequent post (see below), I rather think I'm not "running away with it". You say that many of your issues appeared to be related to something more profound or serious. That was exactly the point I was making. It's of little use to try to put a sticking plaster on the outward manifestation of some deeper malaise.

 

 

Yes, they do. But the sticking plaster analogy is weak. I’ve already pointed out that, speaking personally, I’ve been trying to address the deeper issues with professional help for many years now, and as they mostly relate to a life-threatening event from when I was a very small child (with another as an adult), I will possibly be dealing with them in some way or other for the rest of my life. In the meantime, like many people, in order to get through the day I try to focus on the things I love and care deeply about, which, as I said, help to make things more bearable. They don’t fix them altogether, obviously. But they help to just about tip the balance towards staying alive rather than taking that final step and calling it a day, which is a line I’ve walked for several years now. If you’re in constant pain, you take painkillers. They may not take the pain away entirely, but they generally help a bit. Or don’t you understand that? That seems like a pretty simple concept.
 

From your comments, you seem to think music isn’t that important in the scheme of things. Well if it isn’t to you, that’s fine, that’s your opinion, your choice, your life. But while there may be many, many people who probably agree with you, there are many, many people who would disagree. Maybe you should think about the fact that you don’t speak for everybody. Speaking personally, music (and art and literature) give me a reason to be alive. Without them, so far as I’m concerned, there probably isn’t much of one. I’m not saying you should feel the same. Your life isn’t mine, just as mine isn’t yours. 
 

I have to say, you come across as having a very poor grasp of what people suffering from mental illness actually go through on a day to day basis (and I’m certainly not just speaking for myself here), given your supposed ‘knowledge’ .I find that rather worrying. And to be honest (and apologies for those who hate people being offended by “stuff”) I’m deeply offended by your earlier casual “take a chill pill” advice/attitude, like everyone in the world is able to do that. Try telling that to my friend’s son. I’m also somewhat irritated by your “I just write stuff, forget about it and move on” comment (and yes, I’m aware of your Alzheimer’s comment and I’m very sorry to hear about that - I worked in a hospital with 2 ESMI wards for a few years and 3 people close to me have parents suffering with Alzheimer’s) - because some of us can’t. In fact, given I’ve just yesterday come out of hospital after having an op, I’m not even sure why I’m wasting my time responding anymore. I already tried to get you to simply agree to disagree on the basis that we obviously don’t see eye to eye and probably never will, but you seem to be pretty happy to keep prodding. However I’m no longer happy to keep responding. Please talk to someone else. 

And all this because I said that I was hard on myself……🙄
 

 

 

 
 

 

[Cosmo Valdemar]

On 11/03/2022 at 10:39, Dan Dare said:

 

In view of your subsequent post (see below), I rather think I'm not "running away with it".

 

You are definitely "running away with it", and are actually coming across as quite unkind to someone you clearly don't know. 

 

Give it a rest.

[Dan Dare]

39 minutes ago, Cosmo Valdemar said:

You are definitely "running away with it", and are actually coming across as quite unkind to someone you clearly don't know. 

 

Give it a rest.

 

I disagree. I'm not being "unkind" and I am entitled to defend my position. If someone chooses to take offence at what I say, that is not, unless I have been deliberately mean or contrary (which I haven't), of my doing.

 

I have said far, far less than the person I have been involved in the above exchange with. I have been careful to keep my tone moderate and choose my words with some thought. You will note that several people added likes to my contributions to this thread. I doubt they would have done so had I said anything cruel, outrageous or controversial.

 

Please don't tell me what to do.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Dan Dare

[Cosmo Valdemar]

14 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

 

I disagree. I'm not being "unkind" and I am entitled to defend my position. If someone chooses to take offence at what I say, that is not, unless I have been deliberately mean or contrary (which I haven't), of my doing.

 

I have said far, far less than the person I have been involved in the above exchange with. I have been careful to keep my tone moderate and choose my words with some thought. You will note that several people added likes to my contributions to this thread. I doubt they would have done so had I said anything cruel, outrageous or controversial.

 

Please don't tell me what to do.

You've labelled a sufferer of PTSD, depression and chronic anxiety as an arrogant misery guts, advised him to get a new therapist and effectively advised him to "lighten up".

 

When said member has requested the discussion ends as it's clearly distressing, you've continued.  That's bullying.

 

But hey, you got some likes! So that's somehow valid evidence that you haven't been unkind, whereas someone actually calling you out on it doesn't count?

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, Cosmo Valdemar said:

You've labelled a sufferer of PTSD, depression and chronic anxiety as an arrogant misery guts, advised him to get a new therapist and effectively advised him to "lighten up".

 

When said member has requested the discussion ends as it's clearly distressing, you've continued.  That's bullying.

 

But hey, you got some likes! So that's somehow valid evidence that you haven't been unkind, whereas someone actually calling you out on it doesn't count?

 

Have a look at the history of the exchange. I originally posted some modest suggestions relating to the topic of the thread.

 

They were picked up on by 4000, who took issue with me. Fair enough. It's a free country. During the subsequent to and fro between us, his tone became progressively more shrill, culminating in his (and now your) asserting that I am not entitled to criticise anything he says because he has PTSD, depression and chronic anxiety.

 

If you want to pick an argument with someone, you can't complain if they respond in kind, provided the discourse remains civil. The fact that you suffer from mental health issues does not give you a special pass, or mean that others are forbidden to argue with you. Look above again and you will see that I did not respond to his latest post (nor do I intend to - I decided to let him have the last word as it clearly meant so much to him). So much for my "continuing in the face of his request to end the discussion".

 

As for "bullying", he appears more than capable of fighting his corner.

 

Please stop White Knighting. If you want to take issue with the substance of what I say, by all means do. But don't paraphrase me or quote highly edited/selective versions of it.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Dan Dare

[Newfoundfreedom]

OK, I'm just reviving this thread, because I've had a couple of drinks, so please forgive me if I ramble. But I'm just re-watching a performance of my band from a few weeks ago which we recorded. At the time I thought we were rubbish and was mortified at every little mistake. But watching it back with fresh ears, having had a couple of sherberts, I think we sound great. Maybe because the drink allows me to get out of my own head and stop listening to the bass and my own mistakes, and listen to the band as a whole. I don't know, but now the mistakes sound almost imperceptible, whereas at the time they felt enormous! 

 

I don't know if I'm explaining myself very well. Please don't think I have a drinking problem or anything like that. I like the occasional social drink, but when I do drink it feels like I can be more objective of the band because It allows me to listen to the music as a whole, rather than just listening for my own part and my own cockups. It's almost like being a member of the audience. 

 

I don't usually drink before or during a gig, because it makes me really sloppy. But I wish I could find the confidence in myself and the band that I get when I listen back after having a few. 

 

Maybe there's no wonder that so many artists have a problem with drink and drugs. But that's probably a discussion for a whole other thread.

 

I envy those of you who don't suffer from anxiety  I would really love to love being on stage. I love being in a band! I love the creative process of making music and writing songs! I wish I could learn to love performing. I keep hoping it will come one day. I'm generally really confident in life and any social situation, so I don't even understand my own anxiety at performing. I'm hopeful it will come with more experience. 

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

. Maybe because the drink allows me to get out of my own head and stop listening to the bass and my own mistakes, and listen to the band as a whole. I don't know, but now the mistakes sound almost imperceptible, whereas at the time they felt enormous! 

 

Well, yes, that is what is happening, you are listening to it how people heard it, the mistakes you made or things that weren't quite right were not that significant to the whole, but they were to you because they were entirely what you were concentrating on at the time.

 

Although I don't suffer from performance anxiety really, I do always have a difficulty when people come up afterwards and say 'you were fantastic' - maybe part of that is my upbringing, that is someone compliments you or says something nice, you automatically assume it is sarcastic, and partly because I know it wasn't and all the mistakes and problems, but maybe in this case I am wrong, maybe the fact that it was fantastic to them is far more important to the fact that it wasn't fantastic to me.

[dodge_bass]

2 hours ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

OK, I'm just reviving this thread, because I've had a couple of drinks, so please forgive me if I ramble. But I'm just re-watching a performance of my band from a few weeks ago which we recorded. At the time I thought we were rubbish and was mortified at every little mistake. But watching it back with fresh ears, having had a couple of sherberts, I think we sound great. Maybe because the drink allows me to get out of my own head and stop listening to the bass and my own mistakes, and listen to the band as a whole. I don't know, but now the mistakes sound almost imperceptible, whereas at the time they felt enormous! 

 

I don't know if I'm explaining myself very well. Please don't think I have a drinking problem or anything like that. I like the occasional social drink, but when I do drink it feels like I can be more objective of the band because It allows me to listen to the music as a whole, rather than just listening for my own part and my own cockups. It's almost like being a member of the audience. 

 

I don't usually drink before or during a gig, because it makes me really sloppy. But I wish I could find the confidence in myself and the band that I get when I listen back after having a few. 

 

Maybe there's no wonder that so many artists have a problem with drink and drugs. But that's probably a discussion for a whole other thread.

 

I envy those of you who don't suffer from anxiety  I would really love to love being on stage. I love being in a band! I love the creative process of making music and writing songs! I wish I could learn to love performing. I keep hoping it will come one day. I'm generally really confident in life and any social situation, so I don't even understand my own anxiety at performing. I'm hopeful it will come with more experience. 

A few drinks or about 8 months does the same trick - you stop becoming emotionally invested in the bass (i..e you've forgotten all about the gig!) and start to hear it more like a 'normal person'. That's the best point at which to evaluate your work...it's just a long time to wait is all!

[ambient]

‘To rise above the nerves, distractions, and stressful circumstances of a performance, to feel as though nothing can get to you, and when the moment of truth arrives, play the way you know you can.

To be, in a word, bulletproof.’

 

Noa Kageyama, Violinist, Performance Psychologist, The Bulletproof Musician

[mcnach]

On 09/03/2022 at 16:52, ambient said:

 

It is also, sadly, one of the main reasons that musicians misuse alcohol or drugs. They adopt such maladaptive practices as a way to cope with their problem. 

 

 

I'm not convinced that anxiety is the reason. I think the main reason is boredom. The amount of time musicians have to spend hanging around just waiting is enormous. That's ok when you play weekends, and return home at night. When you're travelling around it gets tedious fast, and alcohol and other substances start to appear regularly.

 

 

[dand666]

1 hour ago, mcnach said:

 

I'm not convinced that anxiety is the reason. I think the main reason is boredom. The amount of time musicians have to spend hanging around just waiting is enormous. That's ok when you play weekends, and return home at night. When you're travelling around it gets tedious fast, and alcohol and other substances start to appear regularly.

 

 

This, combined with the fact that as a touring musician you rarely would have to pay for alcohol. 

[ambient]

1 hour ago, mcnach said:

 

I'm not convinced that anxiety is the reason. I think the main reason is boredom. The amount of time musicians have to spend hanging around just waiting is enormous. That's ok when you play weekends, and return home at night. When you're travelling around it gets tedious fast, and alcohol and other substances start to appear regularly.

 

 

There was research carried out by Christopher Raeburn in 2003 that suggested it. They were looking primarily at music students.

 

I think the think the boredom aspect maybe applies more to those who’ve made it?

 

[Oomo]

For me it's always the time leading up to a gig/speech/flight etc. that I get most anxious about.

 

More like a niggling bit of my brain that can't stop thinking about all that can go wrong in the lead up to the event (what if my car breaks down? What if I don't know the part well enough? What if I injure my arm at the gym the day before the gig? My throat's a bit sore what if I get too ill, should I cancel now? Etc.).

 

Then in the day itself when it's too late to back out then (or when I get to the airport, speaking venue etc.), then I'm completely fine.

 

I just get annoyed at the mental bandwidth it takes up beforehand.

[CJPJ]

So, I found this thread after once again completely failing on my 'The Chain' solo live . . . again. Helpful info (thanks) and I've ordered "Inner Game" and I'll take a look at the Alexander Technique too.

 

My issue happens everytime we play live although even in the studio practicing I also feel the pressure. I always struggled with the riff but have practiced for hours at home and I can definitely play it OK ......but as soon as we are on stage and my time comes, fingers go all to jelly and I lose all co-ordination in them. It's defintitely psychological but I'm stuggling to overcome it. I've actually got over the 'looking like an idiot' bit as it's almost comical now but I want to be able to play it solidly for the band as its a great track and the rest of the crew love playing it. Its just odd as there are plently of other bass-led tunes I can lead on fine (Dreaming of You, Town Called Malice, Heavyweight Champion, Start! etc.) and I feel totally confident stepping into them. I think this is just such an iconic bassline that I feel I can't match up to any level of competance. 

 

Help! 😭

[Woodinblack]

Maybe it is worth giving it a bit of a skip for a while to relieve the pressure, bring it back once it has lost a bit of significance?

[ambient]

2 hours ago, CJPJ said:

So, I found this thread after once again completely failing on my 'The Chain' solo live . . . again. Helpful info (thanks) and I've ordered "Inner Game" and I'll take a look at the Alexander Technique too.

 

My issue happens everytime we play live although even in the studio practicing I also feel the pressure. I always struggled with the riff but have practiced for hours at home and I can definitely play it OK ......but as soon as we are on stage and my time comes, fingers go all to jelly and I lose all co-ordination in them. It's defintitely psychological but I'm stuggling to overcome it. I've actually got over the 'looking like an idiot' bit as it's almost comical now but I want to be able to play it solidly for the band as its a great track and the rest of the crew love playing it. Its just odd as there are plently of other bass-led tunes I can lead on fine (Dreaming of You, Town Called Malice, Heavyweight Champion, Start! etc.) and I feel totally confident stepping into them. I think this is just such an iconic bassline that I feel I can't match up to any level of competance. 

 

Help! 😭

You're expecting to fail at it, so you do. It’s a self-full filing prophecy.

 

You know you can play it, you’ve just got to convince the ‘other you’ that you can. The author of the inner game refers to it as self 1 and self 2.

 

Good luck with it.

[Downunderwonder]

On 10/03/2022 at 23:34, 4000 said:

I’ve always suffered dreadfully with performance anxiety/stage fright. I’m glad you’ve pointed out that it’s nothing to do with preparation, because I’ve continually read people saying that if you’re prepared you’ll be fine, and speaking personally it has absolutely nothing to do with it. There have been many instances where I could play everything I need to in my sleep, back to front and inside out, and yet soon as I get on stage I’m a complete nervous wreck and everything goes out of the window. It is absolutely about managing the heightened stress, which for people like me can be off the chart, completely out of proportion to what is actually happening.  I’ll add that I suffer with chronic anxiety and PTSD anyway. 
 

I’d be interested to know what worked for you because I haven’t found anything yet - other than the aforementioned alcohol, which I try to avoid as much as possible - that helps. Breathing exercises, actual pre-gig exercise, meditation; none of them work for me.
 

A couple of years ago we did a local gig as a support for something that was being filmed by the BBC. We weren’t shown in the end, but I was utterly terrified. I was frozen. I could barely move my fingers and the experience was hideous. How I got through it I don’t know. I’ll add here that I hate anything to do with adrenalin, which makes me feel physically ill. The buzz that most people get playing live is not what I experience at all, it’s more like being in a car crash.  

Eat more oily fish. Nix sugar. Avoid alcohol as far as possible.

[Newfoundfreedom]

8 hours ago, CJPJ said:

So, I found this thread after once again completely failing on my 'The Chain' solo live . . . again. Helpful info (thanks) and I've ordered "Inner Game" and I'll take a look at the Alexander Technique too.

 

My issue happens everytime we play live although even in the studio practicing I also feel the pressure. I always struggled with the riff but have practiced for hours at home and I can definitely play it OK ......but as soon as we are on stage and my time comes, fingers go all to jelly and I lose all co-ordination in them. It's defintitely psychological but I'm stuggling to overcome it. I've actually got over the 'looking like an idiot' bit as it's almost comical now but I want to be able to play it solidly for the band as its a great track and the rest of the crew love playing it. Its just odd as there are plently of other bass-led tunes I can lead on fine (Dreaming of You, Town Called Malice, Heavyweight Champion, Start! etc.) and I feel totally confident stepping into them. I think this is just such an iconic bassline that I feel I can't match up to any level of competance. 

 

Help! 😭

 

I have the same thing when I get to certain song parts. I think I'm going to c@ck it up, so the anxiety builds the closer I get to the part, then by the time I actually get there is almost inevitable I'm going to mess it up because the nervous energy has risen to such a high, that playing anything is almost impossible. 

[NJE]

I never got performance anxiety when I was younger and gigging, but in the past 10 years or so it has crept up on me a little.

 

Mine is anxiety caused by lack of rehearsal and other peoples lack of ability or rehearsal.

 

I had one gig with folks I have played with a fair bit over the years and it was a 40+ song set list that we weren’t going to rehearse together. Not only that, they weren’t all in original keys and most of them I didn’t know and there was only a couple of weeks to learn them. This caused me so much stress and it was a huge relief when it was cancelled because of Covid.

 

Another band I played with and fronted regularly was good fun and with good guys (for the most part) but they weren’t good players. Over time I used to get so worried about everyone else and what they were going to play wrong, my enjoyment and stress levels went through the roof. It got the point where I just dreaded playing and didn’t want to gig.

 

On the flip side, at a similar time I was also playing with a 12 piece soul band and they were all great reliable seasoned players. I just did backing vocals and was at the back with the drummer and it was amazing. I just had to focus on my playing and enjoying the music and I loved every gig with no stress whatsoever.

[DaveFry]

Recent interview with Kenny Werner :

 

 

 

[CJPJ]

8 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

Maybe it is worth giving it a bit of a skip for a while to relieve the pressure, bring it back once it has lost a bit of significance?

Its a sensible suggestion but if we stop playing it I actually think it will build up more anticipation of the 'return of The Chain'. I think my band are continuing to play it so that it actually normalises my anxiety - ie. if you screw up, you screw up, so what.

 

8 hours ago, ambient said:

You're expecting to fail at it, so you do. It’s a self-full filing prophecy.

You know you can play it, you’ve just got to convince the ‘other you’ that you can. The author of the inner game refers to it as self 1 and self 2.

Good luck with it.

That's so true - and I know it. Book arrives today so its my first priority to get into it. Thanks

 

1 hour ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

 

I have the same thing when I get to certain song parts. I think I'm going to c@ck it up, so the anxiety builds the closer I get to the part, then by the time I actually get there is almost inevitable I'm going to mess it up because the nervous energy has risen to such a high, that playing anything is almost impossible. 

Thats the one. I feel your pain 😬

 

 

1 hour ago, NJE said:

Mine is anxiety caused by lack of rehearsal and other peoples lack of ability or rehearsal.

That is also true - that sense of combined failure. If you screw up individually you might look silly or probably no one noticies / quickly forgets. If you screw up as a band, everyone just walks off and finds something better to do. But that feeling of hitting it hard and nailing it as a team is just unbeatable!

 

I was so fed up last night / earliy this morning that I started playing about with the riff and I think I might have found a solution that my fingers can deal with in a stressful situation. If think I can play it all on the E string. A little clunkly and won't win any technique prizes but if I can at least actually play the notes it might get me back on track to a good place! 🤞 

[rushbo]

In another life, I was a  music teacher and one of my colleagues gave me a great quote which I instantly took to heart:

 

Don’t practice until you get it right. Practice until you can’t get it wrong.

 

In my current band, I have an eight bar bass solo. The thought of playing it live, filled me with dread. Then I remembered that old adage. For weeks, every time I picked up the bass, I played that solo a dozen times or so. If I had a moment to spare, I'd play that line. Before I went to sleep, I'd visualise myself playing that line perfectly, going through the notes in my head.  The more bored I got playing it, the better I got at playing it. As a consequence, those eight bars are tattooed on my brain. Now, I really enjoy playing it in front of people.

 

The key is to try and not put pressure on yourself. If you don't get it right, move on and try again later. Distract yourself. Practice it with the TV on. It's a pretty labour-intensive way to learn something, but it worked for me.

Edited June 6, 2022 by rushbo