Click Tracks.....

[SPHDS]

Apologies if done to death/wrong place on the forum....(move if need be!)

What are peoples' views on the above......?
I've never used them (but them never been asked to either.....)
I totally understand if you are using backing tracks/lighting/effects etc, where they would be useful, but doesn't having a metronome clacking in your ear just ruin the 'vibe'......also, isn't there the danger of becoming too reliant......?
(I know from jamming along to stuff on YouTube etc at home, I'm all well and good, but come play it in 'real life'........GULP!)

I'd like to think that, whatever I'm playing, I can rely on the rest of the band to keep in time, (and to keep up with them.....) and not have that dictated by something in my ear

(Or am I totally missing the point, need to get to sleep and forget about it.....?)

[Dad3353]

2 hours ago, SPHDS said:

...What are peoples' views on the above......?

 

If you've never needed them, and still don't, it's just an academic question, no..? They are seldom used in playing 'live', except by the drummer, if there's a need. The 'need' would be having fixed tempo stuff going on, to which the drummer has to 'lock in' to, such as sporadic samples. It would be very rare indeed to have other band members using them, unless they, too, need to synchronise with samples and the like.

It doesn't have to be a metronome 'click', either. It could be a rhythm guitar, or a spoken count-down; it's whatever works in any given situation.
Much more prevalent when recording, as there may not be other musicians playing at the same time. Whoever is laying down the first track (drums, often, but could well be an acoustic guitar as a reference track...), a 'click' is a tried and tested method for ensuring a regular tempo (usually...). Once the 'beat' is there, though, not many would continue having a 'click'; they are better served listening to what the preceding players have done, and lock into that. It's a wide and varied subject, and there are many other uses or needs, but that's the bare bones of it.
(Disclaimer: I'm a drummer...).

[BreadBin]

I've played in bands that had a lot of electronics, with drummers using clicks and the rest of us synching with said drummers. It feels entirely natural, and keeps everything tight.

I've also played with quite inexperienced drummers and had to be the lead with regards to tempo, this is much harder work! 

[Lozz196]

Used them in recording, to reign in drummers who would speed up after rolls etc.

[Skybone]

Not a fan, don't see how much good they'd be when recording a song with tempo changes.

 

In this day and age, it would be far easier to DI guitar & bass when laying down a drum track, so that there's no spill, and then overdub later. If your DI has amp & cab modelling capabilities, even better.

 

Must admit to being in the school of thought that using things like click tracks and recording each instrument individually takes something away from the "organic" feel of a group of people in a room, making music together. I appreciate that a recording engineer's job is difficult in this situation because of mic over-spill, but it's also part of their job to capture "the vibe" of a group of people in a room, making music together (IMO).

 

And don't get me started on studio processing...

 

Yes, we're about to go into the studio for some recording, and the engineer wants to use click-tracks and loads of processing. (sigh)

[Doddy]

I think it's getting more and more common for bands and shows to use clicks live. A lot of bands at all levels are using tracks to enhance their sound, so it's necessary to have a click. 

I don't think that just the drummer should have the click either. There are a lot of situations where the click tracks have audible cues and it's necessary for the whole band to hear them. Of course, this means that everyone needs to go on in ears, but it makes the band tighter if everyone has the click.

It's not always about just keeping the time fixed either. I work regularly with a tribute show that uses tracks, and the clicks often shift in tempo in the same way that the original band used to. 

Over the last few years, I've only done a handful of (non-jazz) gigs that haven't used tracks.

[Guest]

I can't ever remember a time in the studio when there wasn't a click track in place, except for some very jam-like blues recordings. Unless the drummer is comparable to someone like Bernard Purdie, Steve Gadd or Jeff Porcaro it's kind of essential to keep them reasonably in time. I was also very active in the late 80s and 90s where so much stuff was sequenced, so got very comfortable playing to a click and making the music breathe. There are some fabulous drummers out there but in my studio time only 1 or 2 could really cut it to record unaided.

Plus as others have said, reliance on external backing tracks when gigging kind of mandates an accurate tempo. Is it needed for a jam-scenario or a loose covers band without any of those dependencies? Probably not. I stopped gigging before reliable in ear monitors were affordable; if I were to start up again, I'd definitely welcome a click, not least to maintain the tempo of each song. It's great to lift the tempo a little with songs that can drag, but all too often the speed went up and up (and quality down the toilet) as the gig progressed.

[Paul S]

We used a click track in the Bon Jovi tribute I used to be in.  At first we did some shows with some back projections and used some backing tracks to thicken the bvs and the odd extra guitar/assorted noises.  That kept it all under the control of the keys player who was the most talented guy in the band as well as the most tech minded.  It was all downgraded a bit later on and we only used the click track for certain songs, whereupon it became the responsibility of the drummer via a programmable pad thingy albeit set up by the keys chap (and assume they still do it like that).  The one I needed to listen out for particularly was 'Livin' On A Prayer' where the bass starts in the midst of some nebulous keys and ahead of the drums.  

 

In another band I was in for some years for some reason the tempo seemed to always be a bone of contention with some band members feeling various songs were played too fast/too slow/speeding up/slowing down.  The drummer decided to programme into his phone a flashing beat for each song, just to keep it steady at the agrreed tempo, which he caught sight of just in his vision.  Seemed to work ok but sometimes made the set feel a bit inorganic.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Paul S

[WinterMute]

Used them live and in the studio, pretty much always to sync the drummer into pre-recorded tracks or MIDI arrangements.

 

I've found that some drummer will prefer to work with a percussion loop rather than a cowbell or woodblock banging away in their headphones, and I've often programmed dynamic clicks that are extracted from the drummers natural performances using Beat Detective or the like, these work really well for studio recordings as the retain the natural pushing and pulling that a drummer will impart to a performance, but keep the synths in time.

 

The main advantage in the studio is locking the drums to the audio timeline for editing later, if the timeline moves with the performance, all the better. You can do it the other way round and extract the timeline sync from a performance, which works just as well.

 

It takes practice and determination for a drummer to work well with a click I think, it's not a instant thing for most players.

Edited March 12, 2022 by WinterMute

[BreadBin]

10 minutes ago, WinterMute said:

It takes practice and determination for a drummer to work well with a click I think, it's not a instant thing for most players.

Definitely, one drummer in particular always seemed to be fractionally ahead of the beat. I found out he did most of his practicing with an electronic kit at home, I think he was compensating for the latency.

[Lfalex v1.1]

One drummer I played with used a click live. 

As stated earlier,  can make a bassist's life easier as we don't have to try to pull unruly percussionists back into line!

Saw Alfredo Henandez (drums) use one live on QOTSA's first live tour. He was awesome. Absolutely metronomically accurate, which,  in turn kept the rest of the band in check.

[BreadBin]

One of my favourite drummers to have played with (we were in 2 different bands and may well join forces again) was a click user to sync with sequenced parts.

He manages to retain feel and whenever we play together we link effortlessly, like a proper rhythm section should. It's a mutual experience too, we've discussed this.

[tony_m]

Our drummer currently uses a click on his electronic kit to make sure we (especially Mr Guitar) start a particular couple of songs at the correct slow tempo. Unfortunately, in the chaos of last night's Bad Monitor Fest, and under pressure to get the next song started, while selecting the correct click he also managed to select the wrong drumkit (one of the factory presets instead of the self-programmed one he wanted for the song in question) - as this was significantly louder than the correct one, it just added to the chaos and his general feeling of discomfort, though at least the tempo was correct...

[BigRedX]

The trick with click tracks and any other automated tempo setting method is to make it work for you, not to allow it to be a rigid master.

 

The days to the standard un-varying 1/4 note "cowbell" click with an accent on the one are long gone and anyone still using it should only be doing so because out of all the options available today they have found that this is the one that works best for them.

 

1. Whoever is using the "click track" to set the tempo for the rest of the band should have something they feel comfortable with. It may be the standard 1/4 note cowbell click or it could be an actual rhythm pattern complete with swing, groove and other micro timings already built in to it, or anything in between. What works for one drummer will not necessarily work for another. Give them what allows them play best.

 

2. Even given a traditional rigid click a good drummer can still play against it to proved the correct "groove" for the rest of the band to play to.

 

3. It is now possible to stick a lot of extra information into the click track to provide cues that only those using it can hear. One of the band I currently play with has some songs with different bar lengths in amongst all the standard 4/4. On these the click is programmed to allow the drummer to hear where these are.

 

4. You don't always need a click. With The Terrortones we never used a click live, but on each occasion before we went into the studio we would spend several rehearsals working on the songs we were going to record trying each with clicks at various tempos around what we thought was correct and then without. Those songs that benefited from using a click in terms of feel were recorded with one, and those that required a bit more push and pull in tempo between the various sections were done without. 

 

5. If you find that the click appears to be holding band back on some songs in terms of tempo, either your tempo is wrong or the songs are in the wrong order in the set. In this respect using a click can be a real advantage when it comes to selecting the best song order for pacing a set.

 

6. These days tempo changes within a song are no problem either. My other band recently parted company with our drummer, and it was decided not replace him and use a drum machine instead. When I was doing the drum programming it became obvious quite quickly that some of the songs now benefitted from a set constant tempo, whilst others required me to match the tempo changes of our drummer to maintain the correct feel. We've spent a fair amount of time working on this in rehearsal so that all the band members were happy with how the tempo changes worked. Some required a straight tempo change from one bar to the next, whist others needed to build up (or down) over a bar or two. The end result is that now all the tempo changes happen in a predictable;e manner and are the same ver time we play the songs which results in them being much tighter and sounding better for it.

 

 

[BreadBin]

Great post @BigRedX👍

[acidbass]

Depends on the genre of course but I find click tracks to be more or less essential. We live in the Youtube age where a drummer is considered good if they get 1m hits on a 64th note paradiddle drum solo. Most drummers nowadays completely gloss over the basics that you need in an ensemble context (time, feel, groove) in favour of glamorous nonsense. The same could be said of most musicians I guess.

 

99% of large scale touring bands use a click live for one reason or another - a notable exception being Metallica, whose live tempos are notoriously terrible.

[Lozz196]

In one band I was in the drummer spent a good time rehearsing along with a click to iron out any speeding up issues.

 

And then,  rather ironically, the songwriter in the band wrote a song that sped up halfway through.

 

Doh!

[BigRedX]

15 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

In one band I was in the drummer spent a good time rehearsing along with a click to iron out any speeding up issues.

 

And then,  rather ironically, the songwriter in the band wrote a song that sped up halfway through.

 

Doh!

 

Easily managed with a click track these days as I mentioned in my previous post.

 

TBH. IME the biggest problem with using a click is that often the drummer is completely unused to having to play in time to another instrument, as their default mode is to set the tempo and the rest of the band play to them.

[Phil Starr]

On 12/03/2022 at 00:54, SPHDS said:

I totally understand if you are using backing tracks/lighting/effects etc, where they would be useful, but doesn't having a metronome clacking in your ear just ruin the 'vibe'.

 

you've had some great responses so no point repeating them but a bit of recent experience.

 

I've never used a click track live but recently my duo have added programmed drums. Where the drums come in late you absolutely need a click track and we have left the click track on for a lot of the new songs whilst we get used to playing with backing tracks.

 

Playing to strict tempo is a revelation. It's total liberation for the bassist where too often we are left trying to hold tempo when everyone else is slipping. Actually it has shown up how lazy we all are, slipping the tempo constantly to keep the band together has become my norm when the singer and drums get out of sync. We all do it so naturally we think it doesn't notice and I habitually follow the guitarists time in solos, the singer when they are singing and the drums the rest of the time. That's with the band, the click tracks with the duo mean we are so tight all of a sudden and much to my surprise it all sounds so much more natural. I can relax knowing exactly where the next beat will be and can put in a bit more variation into my playing as  result. I've started to play a stricter tempo with the band too and the drummer has responded to that. Strict tempo is more natural, who knew?

Edited March 14, 2022 by Phil Starr

[WinterMute]

29 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

Easily managed with a click track these days as I mentioned in my previous post.

 

TBH. IME the biggest problem with using a click is that often the drummer is completely unused to having to play in time to another instrument, as their default mode is to set the tempo and the rest of the band play to them.

Exactly, and provided you've a drummer able to set and keep the tempo correctly, this is a much better option for keeping DAW's and synths in sync, extract the timing template from the drummers performance and use that to drive the DAW timeline. The preservation of feel and the ability to lock MIDI and loop parts to it is essential.

[MichaelDean]

We used a click in a post rock band I was in. The guitarist looped everything live in Ableton so we needed to stay on tempo for the repeats to be correct. We all had IEMs (eventually individual mixes all done through software) and it worked really well. It was odd at first but you just get used to it. 

 

I kinda miss hearing everything that well all of the time! 

[WAYNESWORLD]

Personally I love em. We you use a click in a live situation and have done for years now.I would probably say compared to a lot of people on this site my skill level is probably quite mediocre. The one thing I do well is lock stuff down . I find click keeps us tight but admit leaves little room for flannel which hand on heart suits me.It’s been a while since I played live without backing tracks but did join in on a jam the other week. We played a few well know tracks everyone could let go on. The first thing that struck me was even with different drummers how loose and sloppy the music sounded,but in fairness it was only a jam.

[mike257]

I've used them in large scale touring productions right down to little club shows. It's a massively useful tool.

 

One high end function/corporate showband I've mixed a few times had two different clicks outputting from the playback rig, each with different verbal cues built in - one for the band and one for the vocalists - so even a last minute dep jumping in on a show had cues in their ears for every section change, breakdown, ending etc - great when the band had loads of mashups and unique arrangements. 

 

I've seen some very sophisticated setups where a playback rig is sending clicks, automating patch changes on keys and guitar rigs, and feeding timecode to lighting/video to sync the whole show up. 

 

There's huge creative and practical potential in these tools that goes far beyond just keeping unruly tempo wandering in check!

[MacDaddy]

 

So in terms of the practicalities... assuming the drummer is playing to a click, they'll be wearing headphones/earpieces to hear it (unless the click is put through a monitor?) so how will they hear the rest of the band?

 

[Dad3353]

14 minutes ago, MacDaddy said:

 

So in terms of the practicalities... assuming the drummer is playing to a click, they'll be wearing headphones/earpieces to hear it (unless the click is put through a monitor?) so how will they hear the rest of the band?

 

 

If it's only the drummer with the 'click', the others won't need it at all. Whatever is producing the 'click' is probably capable of feeding in something from the PA, at a minimum. More sophisticated set-ups (and playing with a 'click' assumes some degree of sophistication...), each musician could get fed the monitor mix they require, including their own instrument and/or the 'click'. The less expensive option is having only one earpiece, for the 'click'. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Dad3353