Help identifying vintage rickenbacker fakes

[HK.]

Hello friends! I present to you two fake rickenbackers. They are vintage, and so far from what I've gathered, the fireglo one is an Ibanez, with a swapped TRC and some stickers.

The one I am still unsure about is the jetglo/black one. I haven't been able to find any fakes (or real ones) that had the white "skunk" stripe. Any help would be appreciated, I heard rumours of an especially talented individual who frequents this forum.. @Bassassin was it?

 

 

They were offered to me in a trade, so these are the only pictures I have. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[ead]

Paging @prowla, can you help?

[HK.]

Apparently the white stripe has been painted on... It has the correct TRC tho, made in usa, model 4001. I guess it was owned by someone who felt the jetglo model lacked the stripe the other models have  

Edited March 31, 2022 by HK.

[prowla]

That white stripe ain’t great, is it. 

[HK.]

For sure not. Turns out its NOT painted on, its part of it. But yeah, like it says, I am aware that both of these are fakes, I'm just trying to figure out which factory/company made em, IE Greco, Ibanez, some other brand. Cant even find a fake black one with a white stripe on google.

[prowla]

It’s quite difficult to tell much from those pictures.

They look vintage Japanese; I’m thinking Shaftesbury, but they could be other. 
The tuners look interesting, but can’t see the backs. 
Is the black one a bolt-on neck?

[Bassassin]

Nothing to do with Ibanez - those have features that make them really easy to ID that neither of these two have.  Although that doesn't matter, the MIJ copies are all desirable/collectable & all similarly good quality.

 

Agree with @prowla that the FG is likely from the factory which made Shaftesbury - these are thought to have been made by Chushin Gakki & probably date from the mid 70s.

 

Harder to tell with the black one but if it's through-neck (looks like it has the binding gap so 99.5% it is), I'd be inclined to think it might be the same bass in a different colour - the tuners on that are the type you'd expect to see on the Chushin basses - I'm inclined to think they've been swapped on the FG one. The white stripe is not original - I'll stick my neck out & say no Fakers had that.

 

If there's any chance you could provide clearer/better pics then me & @prowla could probably give you more info - although from what I can tell these both look worth getting hold of, if Rick copies are your thing!

[HK.]

Thank you both so much! Ok, well they were offered to me in a trade for something kinda valueable..

My main bass is a 2017 4003, and I use the stereo a lot. 

Do these compare? It would be nice ot have one I could worry less about at practice etc.

What names would they have had on the headstock do you think? And what would be a fair value on em, if I were to get them?

 

Many thanks!

[HK.]

The seller is adamant that the stripe is original.. Hmm, He might be wrong ofcourse. I can't get any more photos now, but I'll ask him for some and see. The only other chance I'd have is if I agreed to meet him for a trade XD

[HK.]

So the FG is not a Ibanez/univox or something?

 

I found this and thought it was pretty spot on apart from the stripe https://www.rockwall-guitars.de/en/ibanez-rickenbacker-4003-nachbau-1975/

 

The jackplate on the FG says stereo sound and Standard, it doesnt really come through in the picture. It's lesser quality when I post it

[prowla]

Cool.

Yes, the jack plate would say Stereo-Sound & Standard.

Value is dependent upon thru vs bolt on neck; a good thru neck is north of £500.
 

[prowla]

As for the original brand, it’s pretty much impossible to say, as the same instrument came out of factories with different labels on them.

I always think it’s a shame when folks swap the TRC for a vanity RIC one. 

[HK.]

Yeah I'm pretty sure they are both neck thru. What about the jetglo, with all the cracks etc?

 

[HK.]

6 minutes ago, prowla said:

As for the original brand, it’s pretty much impossible to say, as the same instrument came out of factories with different labels on them.

I always think it’s a shame when folks swap the TRC for a vanity RIC one. 

I agree. I'd much rather have the real one, knowing the lawsuit story and history of the basses. Which labels COULD these have had tho? As I am pretty sure that if I get them, I will try to get correct(ish) TRCs

[HK.]

And what about the case for the FG one? Any clues there? It's a fitted and shaped one, thats another reason I thought Ibanez

[Bassassin]

3 hours ago, HK. said:

So the FG is not a Ibanez/univox or something?

 

I found this and thought it was pretty spot on apart from the stripe https://www.rockwall-guitars.de/en/ibanez-rickenbacker-4003-nachbau-1975/

 

The jackplate on the FG says stereo sound and Standard, it doesnt really come through in the picture. It's lesser quality when I post it

Ibanez & Univox came from two separate manufacturers, both are easy to ID, and these basses aren't the same as either.

 

Two main differences between the Ibanez you linked (a model 2388B) & the FG bass you're looking at - first the Ibby's a bolt-neck, secondly it has checked binding which the other one doesn't. Ibanez Fakers were made by Fujigen Gakki & there were many design tweaks during the life of the models, (through-neck & bolt) which ran approximately from 1971-1978, but they all featured the same tight-patterned checked binding, which was unique to the Fujigen-made basses. There are other differences but they're hard to point out in the pics you have.

There's unfortunately no way of knowing what the original brands were - I presume you're not in the UK, so what's most likely is that they will have originally had had a name used by an importer/distributor local to you. Very few brands on 70s MIJ guitars are anything to do with the manufacturer - and that includes well-known names like Ibanez, Greco or Univox. The basses you're looking at were sold under potentially hundreds of different names worldwide - I've seen them as Shaftesbury, El Maya, JHS, Cimar, CMI, & various others.

 

You mention a lawsuit - this is a massive myth in the history of 1970s Japanese copies, and the truth is no lawsuit ever took place. What happened was that in 1977, Gibson's then parent company Norlin made threats towards the US operation of Ibanez' parent company, Hoshino, regarding the headstock shape of their Gibson copies. No legal action took place as Hoshino had changed the design of their headstocks a year earlier. Absolutely nothing else happened, no-one sued anyone, no other manufacturers were involved - and don't believe anyone who tells you different!

[prowla]

FYI, The reason I asked if the black one was a bolt-on is because the body looks rather thick.

 

Also, the Fireglo one is showing tail-lift; that's where the bridge tailpiece starts to bend upwards and pull away from the body. It happens on real Rics too, so it's 100% authentic!

 

One thing to beware of these vintage instruments is the converse of tail-lift, neck-lift, which is where the thru-neck starts to bend upwards at the weak point under the Bass/neck pickup due to the pull of the strings; a symptom if this is a high action even though the truss-rods have the neck straight and the the bridge is bottomed out; it is fixable, but requires woodworking skills. Again the authenticity is there because it happens on real Rics too; Rickenbacker used to stipulate as a warranty condition that you had to use their strings.

 

Though the pictures aren't great, it appears that the action is high-ish.

Edited April 1, 2022 by prowla

[HK.]

Yeah the pictures are terrible... On my end theyre abit better, but they size down when I post them here. I'll try to get more picks, or maybe pick them up for cheap.

I think it'd be cool to have them for use in our rehearsal space, it would save me from dragging my 4003 there every time. I dont want to leave it there because there's other bands that use it aswell.

If they're in decent shape, with no tail lift etc, would they compare sound-wise to my 4003?

What do you guys consider the best vintage copy?

 

Thanks so much for all the information! I've never done a proper deep dive on the actual "lawsuit" of the "lawsuit era", so I figured there must have been atleast one suit, but no! Haha! Fun fact fo'sho.

 

Ok so, basically these are "no name" high quality through neck rick copies from the 70s, then? I know there were a few big brands who made rick copies, but had no idea there would be this many. Especially not this hard to distinguish from the real deal! Seems like they're either pretty rare, or a very well kept secret.. Or maybe they all fell apart or got new TRCs like these ones...

 

Funny thing is, I only really started looking at and comparing real and fake ricks about a week ago. Last night, what I now consider a poor fake popped up on a local sale-site. Dude claimed it 100% real, and very good condition for about 1000€. I saw it right away. Bridge was wrong, the back of the neck was wrong, looked set, plus more minor details. Kinda funny, because a week ago I would probably have fallen for it! The guy literally said "No it's real, it's a chinese rickenbacker". I thought that was just a running joke.. My guess is it was a rockinbetter with a swapped TRC. Do they still make those?

 

Again, thanks for all the info, I'll do my best to get more pics, and/or get em for a decent price!

[Bassassin]

Just now, HK. said:

What do you guys consider the best vintage copy?

 

Depends what you mean! There were no 100% accurate copies, and all of them can suffer from the same issues (the 'banana-neck' syndrome @prowla mentions above) to a greater or lesser extent - as can real Rickenbackers. What's good is that if we're right about the two you're interested in being Chushin-made examples, these appear to be some of the sturdiest and most aesthetically accurate - they very seldom suffer from the neck bending issue, and are built to accurate Rick proportions, unlike some of the others. Worth mentioning that the bolt-neck copies suffer less from neck issues, as the construction means necks can be shimmed to rectify/minimise problems in that area.

 

If you're a Facebook user, you should join this group:

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/78514186083

 

Basically a repository of knowledge & info about Rick copies across the world & the ages!

[prowla]

Based on the blurry pictures, I'd be happy owning both of those; however, it really comes down to their condition and the price.

You can embed links to pictures on other sites (eg. imgur) to get their full resolution.

[prowla]

FYI, this is one I owned (a CMI), next to a real Ric; the ones you've posted have nicer tuners.

 

[HK.]

I think I managed to upload them in a different size. I think my PC auto downsized em cus I took em straight from chat, instead of clicking em into full size first.

 

Heres an imgur link https://imgur.com/a/R0b8uSl

 

Yeah, slightly better quality. You can make out the stereo/standard on the FG now atleast. Hoping for more pictures today

Edited April 1, 2022 by HK.

[Bassassin]

3 hours ago, prowla said:

FYI, this is one I owned (a CMI), next to a real Ric; the ones you've posted have nicer tuners.

 

Same tuners on the black one, part of the reason I think it's possibly Chushin, like the CMI.

 

Thanks, much better pics, @HK. - it's possible to see the finish deterioration & binding delamination on the black one. Could be a sign of possible water/damp damage, but without different images it's not possible to tell how severe - or hopefully superficial - the damage is. It may well be the bass is structurally sound. Actually I'm now wondering if the black one's been refinished at some point - I've seen similar paint cracking on old spraycan refins, and like I said, I'm confident that white stripe's been added.

 

I'm less concerned by the high-ish action on the FG one now I can see there's plenty of adjustment left to lower the bridge - makes it more likely to be just a truss rod in need of adjustment. These two basses will have conventional single truss rods, not the strange dual strips of bent steel used by Rickenbacker on 4001s at the time! On the whole the FG bass looks very tidy, aside from the (very common) tail-lift, I can't see a great deal wrong.

 

Question for @prowla - d'you think those look like genuine plexi trcs on these basses - particularly the FG, with the additional text? If so those would be pretty sought-after these days.

 

 

[HK.]

According to the owner, they both play fine and any damage is visual. The jet might have been refinished as you say, he mentioned there was some bad paint stuff on the back of the neck.

How bad do you think the tail lift is? And how can I prevent it, AND what to look for to determine the severity when/if I get my hands on em?

[prowla]

@Bassassin My vintage Rics' TRC's lettering is heavier than those.

 

 

 

They could possibly be newer plexi reissue ones, though.