Help identifying vintage rickenbacker fakes

[HK.]

Think it would be feasible to refinish the black one in natural?

[LukeFRC]

18 hours ago, Bassassin said:

 

You mention a lawsuit - this is a massive myth in the history of 1970s Japanese copies, and the truth is no lawsuit ever took place.

So you’re telling me that Basschat got closer to a lawsuit from Rickenbacker over 70s copies than the companies making them ever did 🤣

[prowla]

1 hour ago, Bassassin said:

Same tuners on the black one, part of the reason I think it's possibly Chushin, like the CMI.

 

Thanks, much better pics, @HK. - it's possible to see the finish deterioration & binding delamination on the black one. Could be a sign of possible water/damp damage, but without different images it's not possible to tell how severe - or hopefully superficial - the damage is. It may well be the bass is structurally sound. Actually I'm now wondering if the black one's been refinished at some point - I've seen similar paint cracking on old spraycan refins, and like I said, I'm confident that white stripe's been added.

 

I'm less concerned by the high-ish action on the FG one now I can see there's plenty of adjustment left to lower the bridge - makes it more likely to be just a truss rod in need of adjustment. These two basses will have conventional single truss rods, not the strange dual strips of bent steel used by Rickenbacker on 4001s at the time! On the whole the FG bass looks very tidy, aside from the (very common) tail-lift, I can't see a great deal wrong.

 

Question for @prowla - d'you think those look like genuine plexi trcs on these basses - particularly the FG, with the additional text? If so those would be pretty sought-after these days.

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, HK. said:

According to the owner, they both play fine and any damage is visual. The jet might have been refinished as you say, he mentioned there was some bad paint stuff on the back of the neck.

How bad do you think the tail lift is? And how can I prevent it, AND what to look for to determine the severity when/if I get my hands on em?

 

The better photos do show they're well used; I think the fireglo's tail-lift is at about the limit.

I've seen the binding separate before - they used a softer material than real Rics and it does tend to detach on the concave surfaces.

The fireglo does have some signs of wear (or you might call it "mojo"!).

The black one's neck pickup's pole pieces are rusty - I've seen that before too.

The photo from the jack plate angle of the fireglo shows quite a gap between fretboard and the bottom-E string.

All in all, I'd say they are fairly well-used and may need some TLC to get ship-shape.

FYI, I sold the CMI one in the above picture for £250 last year; I'd shored up some neck-lift to stabilise it, but it needed doing properly.

[prowla]

Just now, LukeFRC said:

So you’re telling me that Basschat got closer to a lawsuit from Rickenbacker over 70s copies than the companies making them ever did 🤣

RIC hadn't trademarked the designs in the 70s and the fakers never had the "R" word on them.

[HK.]

How can I prevent tail lift? I have a 2017 4003 and I'd hate for anything to happen to it

[prowla]

1 minute ago, HK. said:

How can I prevent tail lift? I have a 2017 4003 and I'd hate for anything to happen to it

Don't use heavy gauge strings.

 

There are a few ways of addressing tail-lift:

• If it happens, just buy another tailpiece and put that on to start from the beginning again.
• Don't over-tighten the 3 screws under the bridge.
• Get a Hipshot replacement bridge (if you like the look of them).
• Put an extra two screws through the end of the tailpiece to bolt it back down (unsightly, but RIC did it on some).
• Get a RIC v2 bridge, which eliminates the issue; it does need new holes drilling, though.
• Come up with a Heath-Robinson fix of your own, for example slotting a bent-steel bracket under there somehow.
• Get a custom made tailpiece which is stronger (I looked into it, but a local aluminium workshop wasn't interested in doing a short run of them).
• Put a Badass or Schaller 3D bridge on the bass - it does need the under-bridge bays to be filled in, though. Geddy Lee had a Badass on his and RIC themselves used Schallers on the 4004 and 4003/5 models. (Some folks even put Kahler whammy bridges on their Rics.)

[Bassassin]

Can't add much to that list - although I have seen one (can't remember if it was real or copy) which had been converted to string-through-body. IMO Hipshot's the best choice, unless you're one of the .0005% of players who make use of the mutes. As well as giving you individual string height & spacing, lack of the mute assembly makes pick playing easier and allows for palm muting, which is borderline impossible with the standard tailpiece. It's also the only option which doesn't require drilling new holes or any other mods. Put one on my Kasuga Faker & it's a great piece of kit.

 

[prowla]

I’ve had Hipshot, Badass, Schaller on Ric basses and I just prefer the stock unit. 
I probably will try a v2 sometime too. 

[HK.]

Mmmm. Hipshot generally has too sleek looking bridges for my taste, but if it will save the body from going to stinky poo then ofcourse..

I've got roto 66 45-105 on there now, is that considered a heavy gauge for ricks?

[prowla]

1 hour ago, HK. said:

Mmmm. Hipshot generally has too sleek looking bridges for my taste, but if it will save the body from going to stinky poo then ofcourse..

I've got roto 66 45-105 on there now, is that considered a heavy gauge for ricks?

I use 40-100.

In the past I’ve used lighter gauge. 

[Maude]

My tailpiece was lifting so I put two countersunk screws through it. 

 

 

The tailpiece was lifting and is corroded/pitted anyway, and I use 50/105 half round strings so can't have it lifting anymore. 

It's a player and needs to suit me or it's pointless. 

[Bassassin]

4 hours ago, prowla said:

RIC hadn't trademarked the designs in the 70s and the fakers never had the "R" word on them.

In fairness, RIC didn't exist in the 70s!

 

No-one got litigious about anything much back then, the big US companies didn't see Japan as a threat until it was way too late. Hence Fender & Gibson losing exclusivity to the body shapes of their instruments, and Fender ultimately being so spooked by the quality of MIJ Strat etc copies (compared with their own CBS-era tat) that they contracted Fuijigen Gakki to build Squiers & got Kanda Shokai - owner of Greco - to run Fender Japan.

 

RIC trademarked their designs in the 90s/00s at a time when Rick copies were practically defunct, and up until very recently (when Big John stepped down, or got locked in a padded room, or whatever) protected their IP with extreme hostility and prejudice.

 

So yeah, BC definitely got more of a shoeing than anyone involved in making or selling Fakers in the 70s!

[Downunderwonder]

7 hours ago, Bassassin said:

string-through-body

 

7 hours ago, Bassassin said:

It's also the only option which doesn't require drilling new holes or any other mods

Eh?

[prowla]

8 hours ago, Bassassin said:

In fairness, RIC didn't exist in the 70s!

 

No-one got litigious about anything much back then, the big US companies didn't see Japan as a threat until it was way too late. Hence Fender & Gibson losing exclusivity to the body shapes of their instruments, and Fender ultimately being so spooked by the quality of MIJ Strat etc copies (compared with their own CBS-era tat) that they contracted Fuijigen Gakki to build Squiers & got Kanda Shokai - owner of Greco - to run Fender Japan.

 

RIC trademarked their designs in the 90s/00s at a time when Rick copies were practically defunct, and up until very recently (when Big John stepped down, or got locked in a padded room, or whatever) protected their IP with extreme hostility and prejudice.

 

So yeah, BC definitely got more of a shoeing than anyone involved in making or selling Fakers in the 70s!

OK - "the company which is now RIC". 🙂

It was worse than that for JH - he retired to Birmingham! 🙂 🙂

As far as being hassled over 70s fakers; I'm still not quite sure how action can be taken against things which were made decades before the trademarks registered, but BC's "sod you then" approach to handling the situation is worthy of a wry smile at least! 🙂 🙂 🙂

[prowla]

5 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

 

Eh?

I fink he was referring to the Hipshot unit...

[HK.]

How about this one? Obviously a fake too, but any diea on brand? Chinabacker? Or could it be a rockinbetter?

[prowla]

15 minutes ago, HK. said:

How about this one? Obviously a fake too, but any diea on brand? Chinabacker? Or could it be a rockinbetter?

That's a Chickenbacker, more recent than the original Rockinbetter ones - look at the neck heel!

[Maude]

33 minutes ago, prowla said:

That's a Chickenbacker, more recent than the original Rockinbetter ones - look at the neck heel!

I was about to say the obvious Chickenbacker giveaway is the Cuban neck heel. You can change the hardware but that monstrosity is there to stay. 

[Maude]

I'd also add that worrying about what brand a faker is is fairly pointless. Where it was built is more important. 

Modern Chickenbackers are obviously Chinese, and generally all use the same hardware, bodyshape and wrong scale length. The neck profiles all tend to be massive as well. 

The older (better) ones are generally Japanese, there are a couple of other locations as well. With these the factory that made it is the important factor, any brand is just applied to it afterwards by the importer or company that ordered that batch. 

The early 70s faker I posted above is an Aria, but as I bought it without a trussrod cover, it may as well be any of the other 'brands' that were sourced from the Matsumoku factory. The most important factor in perceived quality is that it's a Matsumoku, not an Aria. 

 

For instance I recently bought a Gibson Ripper copy branded Kimbara. 

After some digging it appears that there is a Shaftsbury and Kimbara Ripper, both built in the Matsumoku factory. If my Kimbara had been imported by Rose-Morris then it would have been a Shaftsbury, but it was imported by FCN Music so it's a Kimbara. 

Both the same bass. 

 

[PaulThePlug]

@HK.Are you on Rickenfakers Facebook?..

As for TRCs GigInk make nice custom ones... Cost is OK for a Real Rick or Quality Replica...

I've got a Chickenbacker Custom Incoming so a cheap option of a Stick on Decal at the ready until i check it out...

Edited April 2, 2022 by PaulThePlug

[HK.]

I am not, but I will look it up:D I really dont use facebook much though. And thank you for the tip on custom TRCs! That'd be a real cool solution to the problem of them being impostors!:D

 

@prowla@Bassassin I doubt I'm getting any more pictures of the two original ones discussed in the thread. But I'm prepared to make him a fair offer for the both of them, as I've seen em now. Worst case scenario I'll hang on for decoration.

How much should I offer without seeming disrespectful you think? 400 for the pair?

Edited April 2, 2022 by HK.

[HK.]

And since everyone but me has posted one, here's a pic of my real rick! 2013 4003

[prowla]

1 hour ago, HK. said:

I am not, but I will look it up:D I really dont use facebook much though. And thank you for the tip on custom TRCs! That'd be a real cool solution to the problem of them being impostors!:D

 

@prowla@Bassassin I doubt I'm getting any more pictures of the two original ones discussed in the thread. But I'm prepared to make him a fair offer for the both of them, as I've seen em now. Worst case scenario I'll hang on for decoration.

How much should I offer without seeming disrespectful you think? 400 for the pair?

I think if you could get the pair for that there would be wiggle room to get them sorted. 

[prowla]

13 hours ago, Maude said:

I'd also add that worrying about what brand a faker is is fairly pointless. Where it was built is more important. 

Modern Chickenbackers are obviously Chinese, and generally all use the same hardware, bodyshape and wrong scale length. The neck profiles all tend to be massive as well. 

The older (better) ones are generally Japanese, there are a couple of other locations as well. With these the factory that made it is the important factor, any brand is just applied to it afterwards by the importer or company that ordered that batch. 

The early 70s faker I posted above is an Aria, but as I bought it without a trussrod cover, it may as well be any of the other 'brands' that were sourced from the Matsumoku factory. The most important factor in perceived quality is that it's a Matsumoku, not an Aria. 

 

For instance I recently bought a Gibson Ripper copy branded Kimbara. 

After some digging it appears that there is a Shaftsbury and Kimbara Ripper, both built in the Matsumoku factory. If my Kimbara had been imported by Rose-Morris then it would have been a Shaftsbury, but it was imported by FCN Music so it's a Kimbara. 

Both the same bass.

Yep - it can be interesting looking at the variations in those instruments coming off the production line.

 

I think the factories had a checklist of options their customers could choose from:

• One output or two.
• Wavy waffle tuners or generic.
• One truss-rod or two.
• Logo on TRC or gold screen-printed onto headstock.
• Black, fireglo, or custom colour.
• Bolt-on or thru-neck.
• 34" or 33.25" scale.
• etc.

The Matsumoku factory appears to have predominantly produced 34" bolt-on neck versions, which can typically be identified by the "Steel Adjustable Neck" neck plate and dot position markers for the control knobs.

 

There were many brands applied to the fakers, including Aria Pro II, Diamond, Vorg, Westminster, Westone (Matumoku's house brand), CMI, and who knows how many others; they never had the "R" word on them, though.

 

I don't know how big their order requirements were, but I'm guessing they'd do runs of maybe 100.

 

Fast-forwards to today and the Chinese factories seem to be following a similar business model, but their starting point is a rather poor copy (the 2nd generation Rockinbetter when they shifted production to China) and their quality, attention to detail, and craftsmanship is nowhere near the same as those old Japanese factories. They are also producing the instruments with the real brand name on them, making them counterfeits; they first did it with "Gibson", leading them to be dubbed "Chibson"s and that naturally led to the fake Rics being dubbed "Chickenbackers"; in some cases the sellers advertise their wares with pictures of the real thing to con people into buying.

[Happy Jack]

12 hours ago, HK. said:

And since everyone but me has posted one, here's a pic of my real rick! 2013 4003

 

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