Compact budget PA set-up to put bass through (without back-line).

[Al Krow]

We're currently thinking about getting a spare compact budget PA which can also handle bass, without need for backline, which would make accessing certain venues a whole lot easier for us (and me in particular!). This would typically be used for pub rather than function gigs.

 

RCFs have a very decent rep for quality and I'm thinking that a pair of RCF 312As without a sub could maybe do the trick as a band PA, that could handle bass without backline but also without breaking the bank?

 

Grateful for any thoughts / experience on this?

[EBS_freak]

You've changed...

[naxos10]

I'm looking at a similar solution using Studiomaster 12" active PA speakers. Cannot think of why it would not work based on having put a bass through a single powered 12" before, and also miking up the bass skin on a set of drum flats for open mike nights through same, both worked successfully.

[Happy Jack]

Not sure what makes "a pair of RCF 312As" a "compact budget PA". You're straight into £650/£700 if you buy new, and that's assuming that you already have the poles, the cables, and of course the mixer. 

 

Obviously a lot depends on (1) what you currently use, how big it is (dimensions, not Watts), how much of it could be re-purposed to work with the RCFs, etc. and (2) what makes the new venues you're targeting a challenge, is it because they're very small, or because there are noise limiters, or because access is restricted, etc.

 

@Silvia Bluejay and I have a spare system too, in fact we have enough components to create a variety of different rigs to deal with different challenges. Most of our purchasing is driven by reducing the weight and simplifying the load-in/set-up at the venue. We play far more pubs than clubs, and very few events that you'd call 'functions', and we totally prefer the power amp + passive tops route for most gigs. 

 

Passive tops don't need a power supply + XLR cable, just a Speakon, so that's half the pluggery and cable routage and the Speakon cable will be far more robust under pub conditions than a 5M mic cable. Passive tops weigh a great deal less than active so they're much less likely to get knocked over by that drunken woman in a low-cut blouse as she dances sideways into the speaker pole. And if they do get knocked over, they're far less vulnerable to damage and far cheaper to repair or replace. Power amps are available cheap as chips these days and, sitting under the mixer, they take up effectively no space at all. 

 

Best of all, assuming that you currently run a top-end functions-stylee PA system with powered subs and tops, bells & whistles everywhere, then going the power amp + passive route will complement the existing rig because you can use it as a top-of-the-range monitoring system if you want.

[Al Krow]

Thanks @Happy Jack - some v useful pointers there.

 

In terms of your initial questions:

- why compact: we'd be looking to use these as standalone without a sub for use without any backline for bass. So my not taking a bass rig vs going from RCF 310As --> RCF 312As makes the set up much more compact; critically the RCF 310As can't really handle low end bass in a full band mix well enough for my liking;

- why "budget": obviously what counts as budget is going to vary from band to band, but £700 new for 2 x RCF 312A is a lot less than the 2 x RCF 732A or 2 x QSC K12.2 alternatives which are often considered to be gold standard. They're also a lot less than an RCF Evox 8 system which I'm eyeing up for our main PA to replace the 310A set up having heard it in action with @Paul S's band and being very impressed by a "backline PA" system.

 

1 hour ago, naxos10 said:

I'm looking at a similar solution using Studiomaster 12" active PA speakers. Cannot think of why it would not work based on having put a bass through a single powered 12" before, and also miking up the bass skin on a set of drum flats for open mike nights through same, both worked successfully.

 

Cheers for that - reassuring to hear. I suspect the next step is to audition some of the PA speakers with a 5 string bass up at PMT Romford in the next week or so.

[naxos10]

Re pricing, the Studiomaster Drive 12 can be found for around £199 each which is £100 + per speaker less than the RCF's (which I was also looking at). They are rated at 310w RMS as well.

 

Jack's comment was also one I considered, found a Gemini GX5000 power amp for around £180, and passive tops from whoever to suit (£99 upwards from Gear4Music and others).

[naxos10]

Being cheeky, if you are going to PMT then look at the HH powered 12" which they have at around £175 and also the same model in 15" at around £190. These have a 200w output (RMS) apparently. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Edited April 5, 2022 by naxos10

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, naxos10 said:

Re pricing, the Studiomaster Drive 12 can be found for around £199 each which is £100 + per speaker less than the RCF's (which I was also looking at). They are rated at 310w RMS as well.

 

Jack's comment was also one I considered, found a Gemini GX5000 power amp for around £180, and passive tops from whoever to suit (£99 upwards from Gear4Music and others).

 

I guess my preference for powered speaker is that two powered speakers will typically take less space (the fella carting the spare PA has limited boot space) than two passive speakers plus a power amp. Plus the received wisdom is that the power units in active PAs are more optimally tuned for their speakers certainly when you're a little more into the mid-range price bracket, which I guess from HJ's comment the RCF 312As should more properly be placed.

[Al Krow]

2 minutes ago, naxos10 said:

Being cheeky, if you are going to PMT then look at the HH powered 12" which they have at around £175 and also the same model in 15" at around £190. These have a 200w output (RMS) apparently. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

 With pleasure - all recommendations gratefully received. May as well make the most of the trip given that I'll be forking out £12.50 on ULEZ and another £3,985 on fuel 😁

[Tubster]

Have 2 systems:

1. Yamaha dxr12 x2

2. QSC K8 x2 and ALTO 212s 12” sub

#1 doesn’t cut it for me on bass whereas #2 handles bass and BD with little effort and no muddying of vocals. ALTO is a cheapie.

 

Why not add small sub - RCF 702, Qsc ks112 to your 310a? Seriously worth testing before forking out for slightly bigger RCF mains that might not do the job. Know you going for compact but just a thought…..

[Jakester]

On 05/04/2022 at 09:56, naxos10 said:

Being cheeky, if you are going to PMT then look at the HH powered 12" which they have at around £175 and also the same model in 15" at around £190. These have a 200w output (RMS) apparently. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Our local rehearsal room studio outfitted their rooms with the HH stuff (mixers and speakers). Three months later it was all replaced as it had all failed. Possibly cheap but for a good reason?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

On 04/04/2022 at 04:24, Al Krow said:

compact budget PA which can also handle bass

Google 'Hoffman's Iron Law', though it should be something every bass player is very familiar with. If it's going to be small and it's going to go low then it can't have high sensitivity. One can get around low sensitivity with enough power, and premium drivers that can make use of it, but that removes 'budget' from the conversation.

[Al Krow]

18 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Google 'Hoffman's Iron Law', though it should be something every bass player is very familiar with. If it's going to be small and it's going to go low then it can't have high sensitivity. One can get around low sensitivity with enough power, and premium drivers that can make use of it, but that removes 'budget' from the conversation.

Cheers Bill. 

Should RCF 312As cut it, based on their spec in your opinion / experience or are we realistically going to need to go north of that in terms of spend? 

[Jack]

I haven't used the 312 but I have used the two higher in the range, the 712 and 732. I have to say the 712 didn't cut it for me as backline running just bass, so I can't imagine it would work as a whole pa speaker with bass and others. 

 

As ever, this is based on my band (and just one venue with this speaker) so ymmv. I can tell you that the 732 we run as pa mains, the qsc k12.2 I use as my bass rig and the yamaha dsr112s we have at school all handle bass guitar at gigging volume quite nicely. 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Cheers Bill. 

Should RCF 312As cut it, based on their spec in your opinion / experience or are we realistically going to need to go north of that in terms of spend? 

They don't provide adequate specs to draw a conclusion from, but I doubt they're going to do the job without subs at other than coffee house levels.

[Al Krow]

3 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

They don't provide adequate specs to draw a conclusion from, but I doubt they're going to do the job without subs at other than coffee house levels.

This is what confuses me: there's a massive "FRFR" thread where bass players swear by a single 12" PA speaker being perfectly adequate as their sole backline without a sub.

 

So it would seem logical that that two 12" PA speakers of similar power and frequency response range should cover low end needs more than adequately?

[Woodinblack]

11 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

This is what confuses me: there's a massive "FRFR" thread where bass players swear by a single 12" PA speaker being perfectly adequate as their sole backline without a sub.

 

So it would seem logical that that two 12" PA speakers of similar power and frequency response range should cover low end needs more than adequately?

but presumably you are putting guitars and vocals etc through it too?

 

I can't really comment, my PA isn't up to your budget levels!

[Al Krow]

20 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

but presumably you are putting guitars and vocals etc through it too?

 

I can't really comment, my PA isn't up to your budget levels!

Yeah, but I'd hope there should be plenty of RMS wattage left over. I mean, a guitar should only need 30W of the 800W RMS a pair of 312As are capable of putting out, so it's essentially down to how much power is needed for the vocals and kick drum. 

 

But at the end of the day, if it's purely an RMS wattage issue we can go for higher powered units. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Al Krow

[Tubster]

4 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Cheers Bill. 

Should RCF 312As cut it, based on their spec in your opinion / experience or are we realistically going to need to go north of that in terms of spend? 
 

 

I realize my suggestion of a small sub has received a communal snub BUT just go test it out.
With a sub you are buying a single extra item that completes the sonic spectrum. It will make the whole system shine - our modest ALTO achieves it with minimum extra weight and little $$$ outlay. You get an RCF Or QSC SUB and you will slay.

Got a feeling that you’d actually like to get better mains - Yam DZR , RCF 745 NX etc.

That is serious dosh !

Right - other mash up solution - take one of your spanking new 12”s off the stand and place it behind you (yes, flies in the face of accepted wisdom!), towards a corner. You will increase bass response and get plenty of funny looks. 
‘We’re  in Spain and play in tricky to access spots. We’ll use a wheelbarrow or a deckchair to get gear across beach ands cliffs.

Anyway will say no more!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

This is what confuses me: there's a massive "FRFR" thread where bass players swear by a single 12" PA speaker being perfectly adequate as their sole backline without a sub.

It depends on the twelve. One that will do this job isn't going to be had on the cheap, nor will it deliver good lows when stuffed in a too small enclosure, especially when said enclosure is up on a pole in front of the stage as is required for PA, which means it won't get ground plane or rear wall low frequency reinforcement. That results in as much as a 12dB reduction in low frequency output compared to on or close to the floor and close to the rear wall. 12dB is the difference between one twelve and four twelves. The concept of boundary reinforcement, like Hoffman's Iron Law, should be just as familiar to bass players as are the notes E-A-B-D. 

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Tubster said:

Right - other mash up solution - take one of your spanking new 12”s off the stand and place it behind you (yes, flies in the face of accepted wisdom!), towards a corner. You will increase bass response and get plenty of funny looks. 

 

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

...especially when said enclosure is up on a pole in front of the stage as is required for PA, which means it won't get ground plane or rear wall low frequency reinforcement. That results in as much as a 12dB reduction in low frequency output compared to on or close to the floor and close to the rear wall. 12dB is the difference between one twelve and four twelves. The concept of boundary reinforcement, like Hoffman's Iron Law, should be just as familiar to bass players as are the notes E-A-B-D. 

 

Seems to me that you fellas are both making the same really key point. Was worth starting this thread just to get this particular pearl of wisdom!

 

So with just 2x12" PA speakers (and no sub) as the entire rig:

- use one PA speaker, effectively as backline but rear facing;

- the other front facing on a pole as normal;

 

=> get floor / wall sonic reinforcement

=> avoid feedback from mics due to rear facing PA speaker

=> bass and drummer get to hear the kick drum and bass much better

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

 The concept of boundary reinforcement, like Hoffman's Iron Law, should be just as familiar to bass players as are the notes E-A-B-D. 

 

The reality of this has been underlined for me by the way my TE 4x10 combo reacts to being close to a wall ... the amount of bottom end becomes huge, too huge.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

That's not necessarily a bad thing, as you can tame too much low end by pulling down the low end EQ.

[naxos10]

If you employ a 15" sub in the PA system to handle bass and kick drum could you then drop the tops down to units with 8" drivers?

The reason for the question is I have seen a System by Thomman with just this configuration. The sub is powered giving around 200w rms to each component.

[Tubster]

Ok - this really is the last time!!!!

Get Rcf 702 mk2 or

even slimmer but more £ - QSC K112

combine with your current 10”,rcf.

My question to you Al. Do you have somewhere near your home where you can see and evaluate PA gear? Absolute Music in Poole was great. They stock RCF.