Compact budget PA set-up to put bass through (without back-line).

[Chienmortbb]

16 hours ago, Jack said:

Clearly it's a way to deliver clear, high quality sound consistently over longer distances, projecting uniform, high-quality sound from the front to the rear of the audience.

It is a thing but only in big venues with flown line arrays.IMHO

[fleabag]

He wasnt offering an opinion. It was an attempt at being funny, because that description was already posted.  Screenshot of Yamaha description

 

 

[Phil Starr]

On 13/07/2022 at 22:53, Al Krow said:

No PA no problem? The bass rig's revenge!

 

I'm still in between PAs, so for gigs these are currently being supplied by the respective drummers in my two covers bands, but I'll have to fess really enjoying not being the band roadie - so maybe that partly explains my tardiness in getting the cheque book out.

 

Well best laid plans and all that: we had a bit of an "emergency" with our drummer falling ill and therefore no PA over the weekend, so I ended up using my bass rig as a makeshift PA for a couple of gigs. We managed to get a dep drummer in for Sat's function gig; and the singer in my other band did a solo set for the London 10K on Sunday morning in place of the full band. I used two bass cabs for the full band gig and just a single Berg 212 for the solo gig, powered on both occasions by my DG M900 amp. Worked just fine! Decent amplification seems to do what it says on the tin and provides...decent amplification. Yeah, I accept that my bass rig probably costs as much as many PAs, but it's good to know that it can be put to wider use.

 

Clip from Sunday's solo set (please excuse the noisy generator in the background): Louise Anderson (@singoutlou) 

 

Comment from singer was that she felt her lows came through noticeably better whereas she felt that they were often lost with our PAs. The fact she noticed that got my attention, but I guess not surprising that a bass rig does particularly well at dealing with low end stuff! As for dealing with backing tracks it does the job very nicely. 

That sounded pretty good Al, which bass cabs were you using?

 

Actually it speaks well for the mids in those cabs, female vocals are what I tend to use to to audition cabs when I'm doing listening tests as anything nasty going on usually jumps out at you as a change in the voice if you use a recording you know. I use Western Highway by Maura O'Connell as a go to and I know Stevie uses Sade  I use classical music to give speakers a proper run out.

 

The lowest fundamental frequency of a female voice is 165-255 Hz so the improvement in the lower ranges of her voice isn't affected by any changes in the bottom two octaves of your cabs, that's about low mids and may just be about the tonal variations between two speakers or just about venue acoustics but anyway the mids worked well for her.

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

That sounded pretty good Al, which bass cabs were you using?

 

Actually it speaks well for the mids in those cabs, female vocals are what I tend to use to to audition cabs when I'm doing listening tests as anything nasty going on usually jumps out at you as a change in the voice if you use a recording you know. I use Western Highway by Maura O'Connell as a go to and I know Stevie uses Sade  I use classical music to give speakers a proper run out.

 

The lowest fundamental frequency of a female voice is 165-255 Hz so the improvement in the lower ranges of her voice isn't affected by any changes in the bottom two octaves of your cabs, that's about low mids and may just be about the tonal variations between two speakers or just about venue acoustics but anyway the mids worked well for her.

 

Cheers Phil. My Berg 212 NXT 4 ohm did the heavy lifting for both gigs and just that one for the Sun am solo gig. I also used my BF BB2 (8 ohm) effectively as a backline stage monitor for the male singer/guitarist/drummer at the function gig on Sat night. I was happily perched next to the Berg for that one 🙂

[Jack]

On 15/07/2022 at 13:11, fleabag said:

He wasnt offering an opinion. It was an attempt at being funny, because that description was already posted.  Screenshot of Yamaha description

 

 

..attempt...

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

On 14/07/2022 at 11:07, fleabag said:

I wonder what on earth a J curve line array is. Did Yamaha invent this as marketing BS and it means nowt. ?

 

Well, we will know if Fitzy laughs at it, whether it's a real thing or not 

 

 

@Bill Fitzmaurice   ?

It's a real thing, in concert sound applications, with arrays that are at least 3 meters high, either stacked or hung so that the lowermost cabs in the array are well over the heads of the close in audience. The lower cabs are tilted down to aim at that close in audience. Doing so with an array the size of that Yamaha is as useful as the inclusion of mammary glands on a male bovine. They're obviously trying to cash in on a buzzword that potential buyers may have heard but don't understand. I'd expect that from Bose, but not Yamaha. 🙄

As for ten 1.5 inch drivers delivering high quality sound over long distances, clearly their definition of long distances isn't the same as mine.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Chienmortbb]

Clearly there is some benefit to these “Tea Chest Bass” systems but for a band they are not ideal.  One local band has three of the Bose Systems and that works quite well but for that money it woul be easy to buy a far superior system.

 

I saw a guitarist at our local using a Yamaha last week and it could be that he did not know how to use it but it was so distorted I made me wince. 
 

 

 

[fleabag]

35 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

It's a real thing, in concert sound applications, with arrays that are at least 3 meters high, either stacked or hung so that the lowermost cabs in the array are well over the heads of the close in audience. The lower cabs are tilted down to aim at that close in audience. Doing so with an array the size of that Yamaha is as useful as the inclusion of mammary glands on a male bovine. They're obviously trying to cash in on a buzzword that potential buyers may have heard but don't understand. I'd expect that from Bose, but not Yamaha. 🙄

As for ten 1.5 inch drivers delivering high quality sound over long distances, clearly their definition of long distances isn't the same as mine.

 

Thats laughing at it which is was what i imagined 

 

J-curve ?   Pah

 

Luckily,  we aren't playing big venues

 

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by fleabag

[Woodinblack]

To dig up an old thread, for one thing and another, I hadn't got a chance of using the Evox 8 until yesterday. I used it a practice, and it worked out well because I forgot my bass speakers (who does that? Me apparently), Worked well in practice, but we were in a bowling alley that the new guy is redoing so he ripped off the floor and wall coverings, so it was a concrete box, echo chamber.

We had two gigs last weekend, PA on one of them, pa provided in the second. Got to the first one and the singer me me (good news bad news, you brought the pa for nothing), so I got to transport it around! This week, the first one was a pa provided, the second was a local club so the first time I have used it.

Didn't have much time to set  up, it was the second gig, I was really knackered by the time I arrived, I didn't even bother with the mix. 

So I had the RCF Evox one side, the Alto 212ts and behringer 12" sub the other. Went out the front, wow, was it clear, it was not something we had heard before. Did the first half of the gig before realising that the bass amp was way down from the gig earlier, and the mixer had the bass way up in the PA (from the practice), so I was almost entirely through the PA. 

At the end of the gig the guy who runs the bar said it was the clearest and best we have sounded (he also said that we seemed to have amazing energy considering the first gig, I didn't mention I was drifting off 3 songs in!).The singer couldn't say enough good things about it, although he sang further back as he could hear himself so well (in fact, maybe too well).

Honestly, if I had another Evox 8, I don't think I would bother with the bass amp any more.

[Greg Edwards69]

On 07/08/2022 at 15:38, Woodinblack said:

I used it a practice, and it worked out well because I forgot my bass speakers (who does that? Me apparently), 

I've done the same.  My bass cab lived with our drummer for a while as I didn't have space in the tiny room I was living in at the time. We had a private party gig a good hour or so from home. When he turned up in his van and we started to unload, his and my heart sank when I quizzed him where the bass cab was.  He was about to jump in the van again and do a couple of hours round trip to get it. Luckily, the person we was playing for is a good friend and also a bass player. He very kindly nipped a home a few minutes down the road to grab his bass cabs. Very lucky escape that night. 

 

If worse came to worse that night, I would have gone direct, but it might have been a little lacking with no sub or bass cab on the floor.  However, in hindsight, after ready this thread (at least I think it was this thread), we could have simply put one of the FOH speakers on the floor and one on a pole to make up for the low end loss.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Greg Edwards69

[Greg Edwards69]

On 07/08/2022 at 15:38, Woodinblack said:

So I had the RCF Evox one side, the Alto 212ts and behringer 12" sub the other. Went out the front, wow, was it clear, it was not something we had heard before. Did the first half of the gig before realising that the bass amp was way down from the gig earlier, and the mixer had the bass way up in the PA (from the practice), so I was almost entirely through the PA. 

At the end of the gig the guy who runs the bar said it was the clearest and best we have sounded (he also said that we seemed to have amazing energy considering the first gig, I didn't mention I was drifting off 3 songs in!).The singer couldn't say enough good things about it, although he sang further back as he could hear himself so well (in fact, maybe too well).

Honestly, if I had another Evox 8, I don't think I would bother with the bass amp any more.

This is one of the bonus things about me and my two guitarists using a helix and frfr speaker each. If one breaks or (forgotten) there's spare channels to plug into. Ideally, we'd like to drop the frfrs and go iem only which we cab only do once the lack of subwoofer is addressed. 

 

The Evox 8 look ideal. Nice and compact and don't take up anymore space in a car than our DXR 12s and speaker stands, and you don't need IEM or monitors.  Only trouble is money. The PA isn't "ours". It belongs to the dad of one of the guitarists. We can't expect him to foot the bill to a different solution, so we'll likely go for an inexpensive, compact sub in the meantime and potentially use the guitarist's DXR10s as tops.

 

This has gotten me thinking however.  I highly doubt such a thing exists due to physics I don't quite understand, but I wonder if there is a full range powered speaker that can also be used as a dedicated subwoofer at the flick of a switch? This way it could be a used a sub as part of a bigger system, and I could also use it as an FRFR speaker at rehearsals.

[mikeycrikey]

2 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

I've done the same.  My bass cab lived with our drummer for a while as I didn't have space in the tiny room I was living in at the time. We had a private party gig a good hour or so from home. When he turned up in his van and we started to unload, his and my heart sank when I quizzed him where the bass cab was.  He was about to jump in the van again and do a couple of hours round trip to get it. Luckily, the person we was playing for is a good friend and also a bass player. He very kindly nipped a home a few minutes down the road to grab his bass cabs. Very lucky escape that night. 

 

If worse came to worse that night, I would have gone direct, but it might have been a little lacking with no sub or bass cab on the floor.  However, in hindsight, after ready this thread (at least I think it was this thread), we could have simply put one of the FOH speakers on the floor and one on a pole to make up for the low end loss.

 

This is one of the bonus things about me and my two guitarists using a helix and frfr speaker each. If one breaks or (forgotten) there's spare channels to plug into. Ideally, we'd like to drop the frfrs and go iem only which we cab only do once the lack of subwoofer is addressed.  Those Evox 8 look ideal. Nice and compact and don't take up anymore space in a car than our DXR 12s and speaker stands.  Only trouble is money. The PA isn't "ours". It belongs to the dad of one of the guitarists. We can't expect him to foot the bill to a different solution.

Do you put the full band through the DXR 12's or just vocals. I already have one and am considering buying another for PA use. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on how they perform for band use.

I also would like a pair of Evox 8. Used them in a band situation before and they were great 

[Al Krow]

On 07/08/2022 at 15:38, Woodinblack said:

To dig up an old thread, for one thing and another, I hadn't got a chance of using the Evox 8 until yesterday. I used it a practice, and it worked out well because I forgot my bass speakers (who does that? Me apparently), Worked well in practice, but we were in a bowling alley that the new guy is redoing so he ripped off the floor and wall coverings, so it was a concrete box, echo chamber.

We had two gigs last weekend, PA on one of them, pa provided in the second. Got to the first one and the singer me me (good news bad news, you brought the pa for nothing), so I got to transport it around! This week, the first one was a pa provided, the second was a local club so the first time I have used it.

Didn't have much time to set  up, it was the second gig, I was really knackered by the time I arrived, I didn't even bother with the mix. 

So I had the RCF Evox one side, the Alto 212ts and behringer 12" sub the other. Went out the front, wow, was it clear, it was not something we had heard before. Did the first half of the gig before realising that the bass amp was way down from the gig earlier, and the mixer had the bass way up in the PA (from the practice), so I was almost entirely through the PA. 

At the end of the gig the guy who runs the bar said it was the clearest and best we have sounded (he also said that we seemed to have amazing energy considering the first gig, I didn't mention I was drifting off 3 songs in!).The singer couldn't say enough good things about it, although he sang further back as he could hear himself so well (in fact, maybe too well).

Honestly, if I had another Evox 8, I don't think I would bother with the bass amp any more.

Were you using the Evox 8 as backline or in standard FOH position? 

 

And same Q to @mikeycrikey please! 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Al Krow

[Greg Edwards69]

32 minutes ago, mikeycrikey said:

Do you put the full band through the DXR 12's or just vocals. I already have one and am considering buying another for PA use. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on how they perform for band use.

I also would like a pair of Evox 8. Used them in a band situation before and they were great 

Full(ish) band through the DXR12's. We used to use it for just vocals and the bass drum, but after years of nagging, the band relented and we stick everything through it.

I say ish because we only mic the bass drum currently, not the full kit, but our drummer is considering getting a set of mic and a small sub-mixer.  

 

Sounds great in most venues, but I'm reluctant to forgo my frfr for bass until we sort out a sub woofer.  It just helps fill out the low end lost by putting the speakers up on poles. And likewise me and the guitarists are reluctnat to give up all our frfr backline until we get a better iem solution.

 

Thinking out loud for moment, as it were. I have a headrush frfr 112 on the floor and both guitarists use a DRX10 each on a half-height pole as our backline, with the DXR12s out front.  Bearing in mind what I said earlier about keeping one speaker on the floor for low end retention, it's gotten me thinking.  We could possibly use the DX10s on the floor, either side as wedges, but at back of the stage and forward facing, with a monitor mix of just guitars and bass so the mics don't feed back. This could help aid low end retention whilst still performing as backline for the guitars. (or use the 12s on the floor and 10s on top). Would this be a viable solution in the meantime?

[Woodinblack]

47 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

ILuckily, the person we was playing for is a good friend and also a bass player. He very kindly nipped a home a few minutes down the road to grab his bass cabs. Very lucky escape that night. 

 

We had that with the guitarists amp blowing up mid gig, someone nipped round the corner and got another amp!

 

47 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

If worse came to worse that night, I would have gone direct, but it might have been a little lacking with no sub or bass cab on the floor.  However, in hindsight, after ready this thread (at least I think it was this thread), we could have simply put one of the FOH speakers on the floor and one on a pole to make up for the low end loss.

 

If you are only going into a FRFR speaker anyway, not sure there is a difference. Am I misremembering or do you not go into one of those 12" Headrush speakers, which afaik is actually just an Alto 212 in drag anyway.

 

42 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

The Evox 8 look ideal. Nice and compact and don't take up anymore space in a car than our DXR 12s and speaker stands, and you don't need IEM or monitors.  Only trouble is money.

 

Isn't it always. I missed a pair of Evox J8s for £1k, which i was gutted by, even though I really didn't want to pay 1k (and it is just me paying here, none of that splitting stuff). But then the Evox 8 came up for under £500, made him an offer that i thought he would tell me where to stick, and he didn't, so got it for £440 local pickup.

I was going to try one to see if it was worth it, as people on here who know stuff say it isn't.. but it really is. Hopefully at some point another one will come up. You could tell out the front that the RCF was doign the heavy lifting over the sub and Alto, and the volume was down from where it would normaly be in that venue.

 

42 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

The PA isn't "ours". It belongs to the dad of one of the guitarists. We can't expect him to foot the bill to a different solution, so we'll likely go for an inexpensive, compact sub in the meantime and potentially use the guitarist's DXR10s as tops.

 

Thats what I did - i foudn a behringer 12" sub on one of the music tribe ebay clearouts for just over £100 - bigger would ahve been better but the band isn't good at helping with the loadin / out, so it would have been more for me to carry. But it was well worth it, especially if you want to mic the kick as our drummer often does (and as he is the one who does help with the load in I am good with that).

 

42 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

This has gotten me thinking however.  I highly doubt such a thing exists due to physics I don't quite understand, but I wonder if there is a full range powered speaker that can also be used as a dedicated subwoofer at the flick of a switch? This way it could be a used a sub as part of a bigger system, and I could also use it as an FRFR speaker at rehearsals.

 

Well, the thing that apparently separates my 12" sub from the 12" PA speaker is that the sub is a long throw speaker. And I guess it has filtering for 100 hz down.

 

39 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Were you using the Evox 8 as backline or in standard FOH position?

 

In this situation it was parallel to me, due to the room layout. So not as far as I would put the 212s if I was using them, but not at the back either, actually parallel across the stage to my bass speaker and microphone.

[Woodinblack]

8 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

Full(ish) band through the DXR12's. We used to use it for just vocals and the bass drum, but after years of nagging, the band relented and we stick everything through it.

I say ish because we only mic the bass drum currently, not the full kit, but our drummer is considering getting a set of mic and a small sub-mixer. 

 

On ours its also sort of full as the Vocals / bass drum / Sax and a bit of guitar are in it. When we play outside venues we mic up the full drum kit and since the sub arrived that has been a lot better. Last time we played 'on the hill' as we call it, the singers son said it sounded really good out the front, which would have been quite a way away in both the other garden area, and the front of the pub (there is little else on the hill apart from the pub). Which is not bad for a little PA.

Back on the hill at end of this month so looking forward to hearing what its like with the Evox.

 

Tell you what though, I am not sure it is because it is the evox 8 (ie, made of wood) rather than the J8 (made of plastic) but it certainly weighs a lot more than the altos - its good you don't have to put it on a pole!

[Greg Edwards69]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

If you are only going into a FRFR speaker anyway, not sure there is a difference. Am I misremembering or do you not go into one of those 12" Headrush speakers, which afaik is actually just an Alto 212 in drag anyway.

This was years ago when I used a markbass head and cab.  The only other solution at the time if my mate hadn't lent me his cabs would have been to go direct from my bass amp head.  Yes, I use the headrush now.  As I've said elsewhere, it would be less of a problem now if it broke or I left it at home as we have built in redundancy amongst our various systemes.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Greg Edwards69

[Greg Edwards69]

10 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Tell you what though, I am not sure it is because it is the evox 8 (ie, made of wood) rather than the J8 (made of plastic) but it certainly weighs a lot more than the altos - its good you don't have to put it on a pole!

It's about time GR Bass got in the PA system business.

 

[Woodinblack]

I don't know, if I am lobbing it in the back of my car, I kind of like the birch box of the evox!

 

[Greg Edwards69]

42 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

I don't know, if I am lobbing it in the back of my car, I kind of like the birch box of the evox!

 

True, but it's the carrying to and from cars that doesn't agree with me. I need to wear a back-belt and tennis elbow strap for loading in/out these days.  Add the knee support I've been wearing since my knee gave way a couple of weeks ago to the mix.... I'm falling apart.

[mikeycrikey]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Were you using the Evox 8 as backline or in standard FOH position? 

 

And same Q to @mikeycrikey please! 

When I used the Evox 8 system it was on a dep gig.

The band put acoustic guitar, keyboards, that's very sparsely used, bass drum and 2 vocals through it.

Their regular bass player doesn't go through the Evox 8 system. When I played with them I took a DI out from my Ashdown Studio 15 straight into the the PA . The band said it sounded better with bass going through the PA, rather than just backline. Sounded good to my ears too.

In fairness there is not that much going through the PA, so it handled it easily.

[mikeycrikey]

8 minutes ago, mikeycrikey said:

When I used the Evox 8 system it was on a dep gig.

The band put acoustic guitar, keyboards, that's very sparsely used, bass drum and 2 vocals through it.

Their regular bass player doesn't go through the Evox 8 system. When I played with them I took a DI out from my Ashdown Studio 15 straight into the the PA . The band said it sounded better with bass going through the PA, rather than just backline. Sounded good to my ears too.

In fairness there is not that much going through the PA, so it handled it easily.

To answer the question it was FOH position . 

[Woodinblack]

14 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

True, but it's the carrying to and from cars that doesn't agree with me. I need to wear a back-belt and tennis elbow strap for loading in/out these days.  Add the knee support I've been wearing since my knee gave way a couple of weeks ago to the mix.... I'm falling apart.

Decent trolley then. Although it has to be said that RCF actually do make a case for it that has wheels!

It has to be said it is heavier than the Alto 212 / headrush. although not too much bigger.

[Paul S]

I'm certainly a massive fan of the EVOX 8 units my band use. As I keep saying, I feel they are a quantum jump in our FOH and on-stage sound, portability, speed of set up/breakdown and can't recommend them highly enough. 

[Greg Edwards69]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

Decent trolley then. Although it has to be said that RCF actually do make a case for it that has wheels!

It has to be said it is heavier than the Alto 212 / headrush. although not too much bigger.

I'd need a stair-climber trolley.  Carrying too much gear up and down a fire escape at our first gig post lockdowns is what caused my back pain last year.