Compact budget PA set-up to put bass through (without back-line).

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, EBS_freak said:

Ah - I was thinking that you were adding to the existing 310s so you were running 4 boxes. I thought you were talking about crossing over the 3s and the 9s (which wouldnt be that advantageous!) Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No worries, Russ. 

 

Be very interested in your views about my getting 912As instead of 910As, as well. They're actually not too much more in terms of price, but will be a bit bulkier/heavier. 

 

Have I got my thinking correct on the key advantage of the 912As in my post above?

[EBS_freak]

Just to add, the sub would be the biggest improvement - it will take some of the sapping low end of off the tops and thats where you are going to get your increased headroom from. I personally don't think 12s really cut as a sub (especially when only running 1 - and you'll need quite a bit of shaping and compression going on to get the most out of it. I used to dep with a band and when I introduced them to a triggered bass drum, it really helped to get more out of the sub.) - and would go 705 as a single box solution if you have the means to buy and transport it.

 

If you are getting into a 3 box solution though... you know, you are getting into 735 territory.

 

Whats your non negotiable? Size? Weight? Number of boxes?

[EBS_freak]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

No worries, Russ. 

 

Be very interested in your views about my getting 912As instead of 910As, as well. They're actually not too much more in terms of price, but will be a bit bulkier/heavier. 

 

Have I got my thinking correct on the key advantage of the 912As in my post above?

If you are running bass through your tops at any significant volume - the bigger boxes and speaker sizes generally move more air (appreciate that the xmax involved in Vd is a significant variable). The more you can get the horn to do frees up the woofer to do more heavy lifting in the lows. You really want to HPF all the energy sapping lows too. Same logic goes with a sub - crossover the low lows, and then allow the crossover on the tops to handle just the highs, mids and high lows.

 

[Al Krow]

48 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Just to add, the sub would be the biggest improvement - it will take some of the sapping low end of off the tops and thats where you are going to get your increased headroom from. I personally don't think 12s really cut as a sub (especially when only running 1 - and you'll need quite a bit of shaping and compression going on to get the most out of it. I used to dep with a band and when I introduced them to a triggered bass drum, it really helped to get more out of the sub.) - and would go 705 as a single box solution if you have the means to buy and transport it.

 

If you are getting into a 3 box solution though... you know, you are getting into 735 territory.

 

Whats your non negotiable? Size? Weight? Number of boxes?

Cool thanks. 

 

In terms of "non negotiables" / where I'd like to get to:

I guess best possible sound with units weighing around 40 lbs or so and as compact as possible, for around £1k would be great.

 

Two RCF 912As seems to get me a largely there, and I'm hearing from you and Phil that these would be a better option in terms of bigger sound than the 910As?

 

Certainly we can HPF both via our A&H desk, and via my pedalboard (I have a Thumpinator on that). Drummer in one of the bands has a RCF 702 ASII, we can add into the mix, if needed. 

[Phil Starr]

What you are saying is all good. Two tens can theoretically make the same sound levels whether they are in a PA speaker or in the backline. there are two provisos though. On the floor the floor actually reinforces the bass  and you can't be certain the manufacturers would choose the same 10" driver. 

 

Raw bass will have a greater dynamic range than recorded bass and bass in live music is often mixed forward so it's not unreasonable to expect lower excursion from the bass driver in a PA speaker than a bass speaker. This is probably where all PA speakers aren't equal, the best ones will have the excursion. I just can't tell you the 910 is one of those and it will be beaten by the 912. I did wonder if I should point that out after I posted but you got there first  The 912's are 18kg I think and quite big units. Does this still qualify as compact for you?

 

I've actually used the 310's as a bass rig and even done a gig with just one, and that is with a drummer. The problem is that there is too much bass when they are on the floor, for bass they are better balanced up on poles. For me I know they can cope with bass as the PA at many gigs but that's how I play and mix. I roll off at 40Hz and use some gentle compression and we play pop rather than rock which all helps. the other plus is that all the mk4 Art series RCF's have really great speaker management built in to the DSP (also true of most modern PA speakers) so you can hammer them really hard with no risk of failure.

 

There is no real one size fits all PA system and I'm currently carrying (storing mainly) 3 PA systems The 310's, RCF745's and a Wharfedale system with subs, even then I know we can't do the biggest outdoor gigs so I still can't cover 100% of the gigs we do in a year. 

 

[EBS_freak]

23 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Cool thanks. 

 

In terms of "non negotiables" / where I'd like to get to:

I guess best possible sound with units weighing around 40 lbs or so and as compact as possible, for around £1k would be great.

 

Two RCF 912As seems to get me a largely there, and I'm hearing from you and Phil that these would be a better option in terms of bigger sound than the 910As?

 

Certainly we can HPF both via our A&H desk, and via my pedalboard (I have a Thumpinator on that). Drummer in one of the bands has a RCF 702 ASII, we can add into the mix, if needed. 

 

I would say that on a gig, I wouldn't say that "a bigger sound" would be perceivable. If they are running different drivers, it would be logical that the drivers are of higher quality - so smoother, less fatiguing... and with more headroom in the amp, arguably more controlled. The thing is, as Phil alluded to, the DSP on the RCF are going to be protecting the speakers long before the driver and horn get anywhere near the output of what the amp can put out.

 

As minimum, I would say the 10s and the 702 will give an OK sound. It will have low end - but will never thump or be a big sound.  

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

What you are saying is all good. Two tens can theoretically make the same sound levels whether they are in a PA speaker or in the backline. there are two provisos though. On the floor the floor actually reinforces the bass  and you can't be certain the manufacturers would choose the same 10" driver. 

 

Raw bass will have a greater dynamic range than recorded bass and bass in live music is often mixed forward so it's not unreasonable to expect lower excursion from the bass driver in a PA speaker than a bass speaker. This is probably where all PA speakers aren't equal, the best ones will have the excursion. I just can't tell you the 910 is one of those and it will be beaten by the 912. I did wonder if I should point that out after I posted but you got there first  The 912's are 18kg I think and quite big units. Does this still qualify as compact for you?

 

I've actually used the 310's as a bass rig and even done a gig with just one, and that is with a drummer. The problem is that there is too much bass when they are on the floor, for bass they are better balanced up on poles. For me I know they can cope with bass as the PA at many gigs but that's how I play and mix. I roll off at 40Hz and use some gentle compression and we play pop rather than rock which all helps. the other plus is that all the mk4 Art series RCF's have really great speaker management built in to the DSP (also true of most modern PA speakers) so you can hammer them really hard with no risk of failure.

 

There is no real one size fits all PA system and I'm currently carrying (storing mainly) 3 PA systems The 310's, RCF745's and a Wharfedale system with subs, even then I know we can't do the biggest outdoor gigs so I still can't cover 100% of the gigs we do in a year. 

 

 

Re. your Q of whether they still qualify as compact in my books - well the 912As are approximately 50% heavier than my former 310As, so brushing up at the limit that I would really be wanting, and also 50% more expensive as it turns out. So if they are 20% "better" (power/bigger sound etc) then that's probably a decent trade off.

 

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

 

I would say that on a gig, I wouldn't say that "a bigger sound" would be perceivable. If they are running different drivers, it would be logical that the drivers are of higher quality - so smoother, less fatiguing... and with more headroom in the amp, arguably more controlled. The thing is, as Phil alluded to, the DSP on the RCF are going to be protecting the speakers long before the driver and horn get anywhere near the output of what the amp can put out.

 

As minimum, I would say the 10s and the 702 will give an OK sound. It will have low end - but will never thump or be a big sound.  

 

So in terms of choosing between 910As and 912As as a stand-alone, is your instinct that there's not likely to be not much in it between them then as far as an audience is going to hear? If so, I'd probably head back down the 910A route as being both more compact and a lower cost.

[EBS_freak]

32 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

So in terms of choosing between 910As and 912As as a stand-alone, is your instinct that there's not likely to be not much in it between them then as far as an audience is going to hear? If so, I'd probably head back down the 910A route as being both more compact and a lower cost.

No - I was referring to the 310 vs 910. There should be a tangible difference between the 912 and the 310 and 910 in terms of handling low end - and a slight volume advantage (assuming the speakers are otherwise comparable in other aspects aside of size).

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

No - I was referring to the 310 vs 910. There should be a tangible difference between the 912 and the 310 and 910 in terms of handling low end - and a slight volume advantage (assuming the speakers are otherwise comparable in other aspects aside of size).

 

Ah ok - thanks for clarifying that Russ. The tangible improvement in low end handling delivered by the RCF 912A is going to tip the balance. Decision made 🙂 

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Al Krow

[Woodinblack]

Funny things on specs. Although I suspect the specs of one manufacturer make more sense than the specs of different ones, so in your case, comparing a 310 and 910 should be pretty simple as they are from the same place.

I was comparing the specs of my RCF Evox 8 with the Alto 212. Spec wise they are similar, except the RCF has 150 watts more, and apparently 2dB more flat out.  And it is heavier (that much is certainly true).

Did a gig on saturday, the second on with a mixed setup of 212 and behringer sub on one side and the evox 8 on the other, did the set up then both me and the singer independantly went back to stick our heads in the 212 to see if it was on. It was. I am not sure it is bringing anything to the party!

[Phil Starr]

34 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Ah ok - thanks for clarifying that Russ. The tangible improvement in low end handling delivered by the RCF 912A is going to tip the balance. Decision made 🙂 

 

I don't think you'll regret that decision, except for the 2 mins it takes at either end f the gig where you have to lift them onto the stands :). My 745's are replacement for the QSC12's the singer took when she moved on. never struggled and never let us down. These should do as well and with slightly sweeter vocals too.

[EBS_freak]

8 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Funny things on specs. Although I suspect the specs of one manufacturer make more sense than the specs of different ones, so in your case, comparing a 310 and 910 should be pretty simple as they are from the same place.

I was comparing the specs of my RCF Evox 8 with the Alto 212. Spec wise they are similar, except the RCF has 150 watts more, and apparently 2dB more flat out.  And it is heavier (that much is certainly true).

Did a gig on saturday, the second on with a mixed setup of 212 and behringer sub on one side and the evox 8 on the other, did the set up then both me and the singer independantly went back to stick our heads in the 212 to see if it was on. It was. I am not sure it is bringing anything to the party!

Stats are a nightmare - you can game the hell out of stats. In the same way that manufacturers bake humps in the 1-3k range (where the ear is most sensitive) to give the impression that one ccab is louder than another. RCF are DSPed to be completely flat with pink noise. Cant validate what the Alto is doing as I've never tested one.

[Pirellithecat]

Hi.  We use RCF Art 710ii's in a 4 piece Indie/Rock Band.  We are loud!
We only use them for vocals (x3).  Drums are unmiced,  rest of gear is 100W Marshall Guitar via 2*10, 40Watt Marshall Combo plus 800 Watt Bass Rig. 

 

Many folks (other bands) say they (we) sound great. 

 

BUT .....

I would not be happy putting Kick Drum/or bass through the RCF Art 710ii's.
I've used them with a kick drum in a quieter band and tried them as bass speakers.  I would not recommend them for use in this way.  I'm sure they would be loud enough but I don't think that they are sufficient for bass - whether kick or bass guitar, in terms of the tonal quality of the bass frequencies - which are present but aren't great in terms of punch or clarity. (10inch drivers?). 
Of course I'm  comparing the bass output to  a Genzler Magellan 800 through a couple of Mesa Subway cabs!!   
I also think that there is/would be a decrease in the clarity of the vocal element in such a configuration.  

And this is why I'm in the process of selecting a Sub (eg RCF702ii) so that we can get a bit of Kick Drum via PA to keep up with the (noisy) backline. 

Don't get me wrong the RCF 710 is excellent.  But it ain't a bass cab! 
Clearly no idea about the RCF 910.

Probably not helpful, but I feel that for flexibility and not wishing to dominate small venues with enormous PA speakers, the 710's (or 910's) plus a Sub will be the way to go.

 

 

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

Hi.  We use RCF Art 710ii's in a 4 piece Indie/Rock Band.  We are loud!
We only use them for vocals (x3).  Drums are unmiced,  rest of gear is 100W Marshall Guitar via 2*10, 40Watt Marshall Combo plus 800 Watt Bass Rig. 

 

Many folks (other bands) say they (we) sound great. 

 

BUT .....

I would not be happy putting Kick Drum/or bass through the RCF Art 710ii's.
I've used them with a kick drum in a quieter band and tried them as bass speakers.  I would not recommend them for use in this way.  I'm sure they would be loud enough but I don't think that they are sufficient for bass - whether kick or bass guitar, in terms of the tonal quality of the bass frequencies - which are present but aren't great in terms of punch or clarity. (10inch drivers?). 
Of course I'm  comparing the bass output to  a Genzler Magellan 800 through a couple of Mesa Subway cabs!!   
I also think that there is/would be a decrease in the clarity of the vocal element in such a configuration.  

And this is why I'm in the process of selecting a Sub (eg RCF702ii) so that we can get a bit of Kick Drum via PA to keep up with the (noisy) backline. 

Don't get me wrong the RCF 710 is excellent.  But it ain't a bass cab! 
Clearly no idea about the RCF 910.

Probably not helpful, but I feel that for flexibility and not wishing to dominate small venues with enormous PA speakers, the 710's (or 910's) plus a Sub will be the way to go.

Actually, that's super helpful for me in confirming the decision to go with two 912As over two 910As. I wouldn't be expecting too much of a difference at all between the 910As and your 710As.

 

I'm hoping the 912As will be fine without a sub, with both bass and kick drum given the 12" speakers. But we have the option of adding a sub if required. 

[Pirellithecat]

The 710's are great because of their size and sound quality.    Especially in terms of transporting them.   However, if I were to replace them, I'd probably go for an RCF 12" model as, having used the  710's a lot (2-3 times per week for the last 12months), I don't think a larger size would actually get in the way at smaller venues.  In an ideal world I'd also add a sub for bigger venues as it doesn't really take up space if used instead of a speaker stand.   But please, if it all works out, don't post how good it all sounds on here - I'm teetering and need NO encouragement to invest yet more £££ on gear!!!  (although we do need a new monitor or 2 ......  and RCF 710's would work ................) 

[Al Krow]

4 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

The 710's are great because of their size and sound quality.    Especially in terms of transporting them.   However, if I were to replace them, I'd probably go for an RCF 12" model as, having used the  710's a lot (2-3 times per week for the last 12months), I don't think a larger size would actually get in the way at smaller venues.  In an ideal world I'd also add a sub for bigger venues as it doesn't really take up space if used instead of a speaker stand.   But please, if it all works out, don't post how good it all sounds on here - I'm teetering and need NO encouragement to invest yet more £££ on gear!!!  (although we do need a new monitor or 2 ......  and RCF 710's would work ................) 

Are you currently using an amp & cab for bass?

 

If so, the 12" PA set up may allow you to ditch your backline. I've certainly spent as much on my two bass rigs as I just have on RCF 912As, so I may end up getting a chunk of cash back if I end up selling one of my rigs. 

[Pirellithecat]

Yep - using A Genzler Magellan 800 plus a Mesa Subway 12 and 15 cabs.   I think it would take a pretty good monitor to get me to ditch them and In Ears are a non starter in the band as no one else is keen!   To be honest I could probably survive with just one cab, but the height of the pair really helps me to hear what I'm doing.     But  ....... , in a different band I'd be VERY keen  on reducing stage noise and footprint!!   Good luck and let us know how the 912's pan out.    Is it "a thing" that the bass player often ends up as the sound guy (or guyess!)???   

[Al Krow]

46 minutes ago, Pirellithecat said:

Yep - using A Genzler Magellan 800 plus a Mesa Subway 12 and 15 cabs.   I think it would take a pretty good monitor to get me to ditch them and In Ears are a non starter in the band as no one else is keen!   To be honest I could probably survive with just one cab, but the height of the pair really helps me to hear what I'm doing.     But  ....... , in a different band I'd be VERY keen  on reducing stage noise and footprint!!   Good luck and let us know how the 912's pan out.    Is it "a thing" that the bass player often ends up as the sound guy (or guyess!)???   

You'd kinda think/hope that vocalists would be providing band PAs as they are the ones who need it the most? Nope - haha! 

 

And, yup, we bass players do seem to end up being the sound guy! Although after a lengthy campaign I managed to persuade the drummers in both my bands to get onto PA duties, as they needed to be driving anyway with their kits.

 

It's been a blissful few months of me not having to take a PA to gigs, whilst I've been looking at replacement options. Will all come crashing back to earth once the 912As arrive in Oct... 

 

PS maybe just me, but I've found that I can hear the bass just fine from standing near a PA speaker ie no particular need to rely on stage monitor or IEM. 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Al Krow

[Greg Edwards69]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

You'd kinda think/hope that vocalists would be providing band PAs as they are the ones who need it the most? Nope - haha! 

 

And, yup, we bass players do seem to end up being the sound guy! Although after a lengthy campaign I managed to persuade the drummers in both my bands to get onto PA duties, as they needed to be driving anyway with their kits.

I think bass players tend to be the most knowledgeable when it comes to sound, as it's usually us that are affected the most from environmental acoustic anomalies and have to work harder to wrangle a decent tone out of our rig without it turning to mush or causing low end feedback etc. We're the only ones (apart from possibly keys) with a truly full range instrument.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Greg Edwards69

[Pirellithecat]

Al .... you have better hearing than me! I did a few songs recently with no amp/cab - the only way I could hear anything was to stand in the audience and play.  They  loved it ........ but I wouldn't volunteer to do that on a regular basis (too close to all that beer!).   The PA was a 12inch Mackie affair so  912's should be much better !!     

[Al Krow]

28 minutes ago, Pirellithecat said:

Al .... you have better hearing than me! I did a few songs recently with no amp/cab - the only way I could hear anything was to stand in the audience and play.  They  loved it ........ but I wouldn't volunteer to do that on a regular basis (too close to all that beer!).   The PA was a 12inch Mackie affair so  912's should be much better !!     

 

Well if you see me putting a high-end cab and a decent amp in the FS at some point in the autumn you'll have your answer as to whether the 912s are any good 😁

[Ralf1e]

On 06/04/2022 at 21:18, Al Krow said:

Yeah, but I'd hope there should be plenty of RMS wattage left over. I mean, a guitar should only need 30W of the 800W RMS a pair of 312As are capable of putting out, so it's essentially down to how much power is needed for the vocals and kick drum. 

 

But at the end of the day, if it's purely an RMS wattage issue we can go for higher powered units. 

What a guitarist needs and what he likes to use are never anybody else's idea of sensible lol or did you mean bass guitar?

[Ralf1e]

On 12/08/2022 at 08:22, Phil Starr said:

We seem to have wandered off a bit from Al's first post but it is great to have a place to discuss PA

 

Just something to think about really when discussing putting the PA at the back behind the players. It just isn't a great idea really. I'm a pragmatic person so I'm not saying it can never work, I will say it is never the best solution in terms of how your band will sound. Two reasons for this.

 

The PA is louder than the human voice. If it isn't why would you use it, just sing. If you have anything other than an acoustic band the band is likely to be louder than the vocals and even though the mic is much closer to the singer than the rest of the band it will pick up everything in it's line of fire. I have meters on all channels and those vocal mics are busy all the time even when the singer isn't there. A hit on the snare registers at the same volume as the singers voice. You need to get a clean sound from each musician to get a good mix so moving anything away from the vocal mics is good. Don't put the PA at the back, keep it in front where as little sound as possible leaks into the vocal mics. Point everything back line away from the mics if possible. I've mixed for bands that are so loud on stage that there is no point in the set where the singers voice matches the instruments in the vocal mic.

 

Secondly there's a thing called 'gain before feedback' link. It's basically very simple, how loud can you turn things up before feedback. There's loads of components to this from the acoustics of the room, pickup pattern of the mic, how flat the frequency response of your system is, how loud the rest of the sound is and so on. It's quite possible that with a singer with a loud voice you can turn down the gain and they can go into the audience. Or turn down the gain and just be quieter. Or just be in a perfect room with no little acoustic problems but eventually if you turn up loud enough your PA starts screaming. A column may well have a flatter response than a poorly designed horn and a more predictable dispersion but that's as much about the quality of the system. A good horn system will beat a poorly executed column. Putting the speaker at the back was a bit of advertising from Bose written by the marketing people. Putting anything behind the vocal mics just decreases the gain before feedback over placing them in front. Something you can possibly get away with but never a good idea.

I have been reading this thread through and have what to me is an obvious  question. Has no manufacturer out there yet thought to put just one backward facing speaker into those array enclosures to provide economical foldback to the band while the system sits Foh?

If not it's about time someone did.

[EBS_freak]

22 minutes ago, Ralf1e said:

I have been reading this thread through and have what to me is an obvious  question. Has no manufacturer out there yet thought to put just one backward facing speaker into those array enclosures to provide economical foldback to the band while the system sits Foh?

If not it's about time someone did.

No - because not all venues are the same and monitor placement is of upmost importance. Fire a backward facing speaker toward the band, bounces off the back wall, straight into the open mics of the drums, or the vocals etc.

 

It absolutely not the time to do something like that!

[Ralf1e]

45 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

No - because not all venues are the same and monitor placement is of upmost importance. Fire a backward facing speaker toward the band, bounces off the back wall, straight into the open mics of the drums, or the vocals etc.

 

It absolutely not the time to do something like that!

Thanks for that. I didn't consider bouncing off the back wall. Back to the drawing board lol