Compact budget PA set-up to put bass through (without back-line).

[Al Krow]

16 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

What do you call Dance Music? It's not a trick question, I am just interested.

For these purposes, anything with a strong beat. Starting with Disco I guess (rather than 50s/60s rock'n' roll). 

[Phil Starr]

19 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

Do you think this indicates that we place too much emphasis on the low end? Would a drummer with a mic’d up kit change the situation?

 

I suspect that unless you were a reggae/dub band a good pair of 12s would be more than enough for most pub gigs. 

I think that the reason I reported back on that gig here is because It's the only time I've really pushed at the limits of what you can do with what is a pretty modest speaker. If I was doing vocal only PA or playing in a smaller venue or with a modest drummer I'd happily use them for bass with no backline. It kind of answered one of the early questions for me in the only way that matters, at a gig. I'd rather gig with 10's that sound good than go for bigger speakers that sound less good or which distort the bass at higher levels. I was pleasantly surprised.

 

I suppose I'm saying absolute volume shouldn't be the question we should put first, or will the PA reproduce deep bass down to 20Hz or whatever. The questions should be how good will my band sound? Will their limitations really impact upon the audience's enjoyment. I was surprised just how hard I could push a compact PA, reminded just how good modern kit is. I've always said that the weak link in the PA is usually the fleshy bit. 

 

I'd almost ask you the same question about "what do you mean about".....  low end? If you mean frequencies below 80Hz then we probably do over emphasize it's importance, those frequencies are power hungry and demanding for speakers but add only modestly to audience pleasure for the sort of covers bands that you, I and @Al Krow play in. In a pub where at least some of the punters want to be able to talk, space is limited and acoustics often awful the lowest frequencies can be an issue with bass resonances and multi-path resonances distorting the sound. 

[EBS_freak]

Re: low end. My very high level take on subs for low end -

 

Smaller subs - mostly useless for anything at volume. Nice enough for an acoustic act to give an acoustic guitar some really low end presence.

Medium sized subs - take away energy sapping low end loads on tops to enable them to work better. Dont really add much thump - just gives you more headroom and control (especially if you are hpf your tops and using via aux fed sub method)

Big sized subs - more about the feel. If people people are pushing too much lows in smaller venues especially, it because very thick and uncomfortable. If you want that pro gig/club feel - this is where you're at. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by EBS_freak

[Al Krow]

I think the main beneficiary to a band's sounds from decent subs is actually for the kick drum in the 60 to 80 Hz range and not for the bass.

 

In fact, no need for the bass to be occupying that same low-end space in competition with the kick as that's likely only going to muddy the sound, so recommend HPF'ing the bass accordingly. 

 

We get by just fine without subs, but in comparison to eg @bassfan's crew 24K, it's undoubtedly a thinner sound than they are delivering on similar gigs. At a pub no biggie, but for function work at bigger venues and with a more party/dance vibe, I would personally lean to 24K's bigger sound with subs, over ours without. 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

Just following up on the above - the DJ at the venue we were playing at last night suggested we go through his PA as he was already be set up and so we just plugged our desk into his.

 

He was using a pair of RCF 705 subs with KV2 EX10s on top and applying an 80Hz crossover. I think I maybe would have benefitted from 12" tops as I am HPF-ing the bass to leave low-end space around 60-80Hz the kick i.e. from a purely bass perspective I prefer our 912As or 732As to his set up. But the drums sounded fantastic and overall that meant the band sounded noticeably better.

[diskwave]

Interesting thread. Last pa I had to deal with had a pair of ATC mid radiators atop a pair of JBL 4550's fed by a bloody great Soundcraft board....Made a nice racket from what I can remember. Sadly any gig money we made was spent booking five people into a chiropractor twice a year!  Goodness how times have changed...anyway carry on. 🤕

[Al Krow]

@Kiwi @Silvia Bluejay grateful if one of you could move this to the new PA sub forum please?

[Al Krow]

On 11/03/2023 at 17:23, Al Krow said:

I managed to source a pair of new 732A Mk4s for our band at a reasonable price with the assitance of @Pirellithecat, so I owe him an A/B comparison of my 912A vs the 732A.

The 732A are about 40% dearer, but as @EBS_freak mentioned, the 3" horn provides a significant step up for vocals and mids over the 1" horn on the 912A in terms of articulation and power. If you can afford the extra then I think it's going to be well worth it. 

 

Link to a sound test comparison 912A vs 732A Mk4

 

 

On 12/03/2023 at 14:54, Phil Starr said:

Hey Al, how did you record that? There's so much more detail coming out of the 732's I'm surprised it's that obvious, did other songs show the same level of contrast? I've learned over the years not to judge on a single song. I've tuned up crossovers to make my test tracks sound good only to find that the 'improvements' didn't always transfer to other pieces of music. The bass sounded nice on the 912's which I think have a more rigid case than the 732's

 

On 13/03/2023 at 10:16, EBS_freak said:

 

Im saying nothing.

 

On 13/03/2023 at 11:59, Jack said:

I'm surprised it's THAT obvious, I wonder what other factors are at play. However, I/we said as much

 

8 months in and our singer is now actively preferring the RCF 732As band PA over my 912As for her vocals. It seems we've ruined her ability to put up with "budget" PA speakers! And amusing that my previous line up were content with 310As for years (although the drummer did comment that the 912As were a massive step up from those, first time he heard me using them).

 

Just thinking aloud: if I upgraded just one of my 912As for a 932A so I had 912A + 932A, I'm guessing that should significantly eliminate the gap between a pair of 912As and a pair of 732As? 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Al Krow

[EBS_freak]

Don’t do that - if you stand between the two, it will sound unbalanced

[Chienmortbb]

30 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

 

 

 

8 months in and our singer is now actively preferring the RCF 732As band PA over my 912As for her vocals. It seems we've ruined her ability to put up with "budget" PA speakers! And amusing that my previous line up were content with 310As for years (although the drummer did comment that the 912As were a massive step up from those, first time he heard me using them).

 

Just thinking aloud: if I upgraded just one of my 912As for a 932A so I had 912A + 932A, I'm guessing that should significantly eliminate the gap between a pair of 912As and a pair of 732As? 

The 732 has a bigger voice coil on the compression driver allowing a lower crossover frequency that clears the important female vocal area. That may be why she prefers them. 

[Al Krow]

51 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

The 732 has a bigger voice coil on the compression driver allowing a lower crossover frequency that clears the important female vocal area. That may be why she prefers them. 

 

So particularly noticeable for female vox even more so than male vox?

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

 

So particularly noticeable for female vox even more so than male vox?

Also noticeable on male vocals

[Jack]

On 03/09/2023 at 13:24, Al Krow said:

 

 

 

 

8 months in and our singer is now actively preferring the RCF 732As band PA over my 912As for her vocals. It seems we've ruined her ability to put up with "budget" PA speakers! And amusing that my previous line up were content with 310As for years (although the drummer did comment that the 912As were a massive step up from those, first time he heard me using them).

 

Just thinking aloud: if I upgraded just one of my 912As for a 932A so I had 912A + 932A, I'm guessing that should significantly eliminate the gap between a pair of 912As and a pair of 732As? 

I'd rather a matching pair of Behringer than a mismatched pair of rcf. 

[Al Krow]

On 08/10/2023 at 16:25, BCH said:

 

Use for the first time last night @ a pub gig 5 piece used 12 inputs & 5 outs for monitors....I & sound eng' use to A&H SQ...downloaded the CQ app ...90% intuitive sound check took 30 min all happy with monitors...improved during 1st set...very happy with the sound...its early days & I'm sure A&H will update with functionality & add on's ...sound helped by amazing KV2 active FoH cabs

 

 

Pulling your post onto this thread if I may...do you have any clips of your KV2s in action? You're not the first person I've come across to rave about them! 

 

About us | KV2 Audio Wasn't previously aware of the linkage between KV2 and RCF - found that article v interesting.

[Phil Starr]

I wasn't sure where to put this but I remember @Al Krow speculating about whether you could put a full backline through something as compact as a couple of 10's. Well last night on a mad impulse we did a gig leaving my usual PA (couple of RCF 745's) behind. The pub 'stage' we were playing is really deep and narrow and there is a huge RSJ reducing the ceiling height just where you would want to put the speakers. Two huge 15's would mean guitarist and I would effectively be hidden from the audience so I took a couple of RCF310's which I only normally use with my duo. Crucially I took a sub.

 

So the set up was the 310's, a really old Wharfedale EVP15" compact active sub, an RCF M18 digital mixer, eDrums, bass, guitar, 3 vox fully mixed and everyone with in-ears.

 

The first thing was this was really loud, the pub isn't huge but it was packed with maybe 100 people in two awkward rooms. We had so much headroom left. The drums sounded magnificent with this set up, lovely splashy cymbals, crisp kick drum sound and the floor toms were seismic. I won't pretend we didn't have problems, we didn't have much time to set up and the sub was in a corner and I couldn't really get to it to keep making fine adjustments in a crowded pub, it was probably too loud compared with the tops and I ended up trimming the bottom octave on the graphic by around 5db we were getting a bit of bass resonance on stage too and our guitarist who doesn't sort his in-ears properly was complaining of too much bass. That is the issue with subs, they really do swamp the stage area if they are too close. although theoretically they can go anywhere practical considerations mean placement is an issue. In an ideal world I'd have set up the balance between the sub and tops at a rehearsal but sometimes you have to improvise.

 

Interestingly the set up was no more difficult than usual. The sub weighs a ton (somewhere between 30-40kg in reality) I could have used a trolley but I picked it up. The sub and two 10's took up less space in the car than the two 15" tops. In the pub the footprint of the sub is less than the speaker stand and lifting the two 10's onto their poles was a breeze compared with hefting up the two 15's. 19kg is a lot of speaker to lift above your head. Running the long cables out to the sub then on to the tops somehow seemed tidier than two long cables to either side of the stage, certainly no more difficult. Drums certailnly benefitted from the subs, vocal quality from the RCF 310's has always been fine, integration of the horn and 10" speaekr has been done well. The 4" horn drive means the 745's are outstanding for vocals so there might have been a bit of a loss there but I'd like to A/B the two systems. It wsn't shabby last night. the bar staff said it sounded 'exceptional' and it's been a regular music pub for 25 years+ so I'm happy with that.

 

So a couple of 10's with a sub? Is it a viable system? I would say so absolutely. The ART310's are rated as 127db max (knock off 6db for over claiming) as opposed to 133db (same over-claiming) for the 15's but you really can push the 310's with the subs removing the bass. The sub was filling the room with bass and really not working hard, a single sub would fill most of the pubs in the country for our brand of pop-rock covers band so yes I think this set up would blow most of the stick and a sub line systems out of the water both for sound and volume and be a good match for most single point source 1x12+horn cabs. I note that the RCF ART708 8" cab also claims 127db so you could even go 8" plus a sub. Other brands are available of course.

 

 

 

 

[Jack]

Good! I'm in the middle of getting a new band off the ground and we'll be using one of the RCF 708ii from my other band with two 910 that the singer owns. We're aiming to be quiet, but I was wondering what stepping down from either 932s or Alto 15s would be like. 

[Al Krow]

@Phil Starr

Would it flood the stage area less if you had the sub at the front? Appreciate they are probably the least directional part of PA kit, but maybe sufficient to deal with the sense from the band/guitarist that it was sounding bass heavy? I've seen subs placed at the front and sides of stages which seemed to work well - also appreciate you're not going to have a stage for most pub gigs! 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

So a couple of 10's with a sub? Is it a viable system? I would say so absolutely.

I've been saying so for decades. There is a place for fifteens, that place is in subs. There's no reason for them in mains.

Quote

Would it flood the stage area less if you had the sub at the front?

You lose boundary loading and introduce boundary sourced cancellations.

Edited March 3 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Phil Starr]

6 hours ago, Jack said:

Good! I'm in the middle of getting a new band off the ground and we'll be using one of the RCF 708ii from my other band with two 910 that the singer owns. We're aiming to be quiet, but I was wondering what stepping down from either 932s or Alto 15s would be like. 

Well the 932's have a really good compression driver and that helps the vocals a lot. Really nice speakers. The 910's are not something I've heard yet but given they are two steps up from my 310's and the consistency of RCF at the moment I would imagine they are very capable. I use the 310's for my duo with programmed drum tracks for my duo and they have done a great job so far including an outdoor garden event last year. Although you'll miss the horn driver the smaller diameter mid/bass drivers allow a higher frequency crossover so you retain a great vocal sound. If you use a sub you are going to be able to get some pretty significant sound levels even with bass and drums going through the PA.

[Phil Starr]

4 hours ago, Al Krow said:

@Phil Starr

Would it flood the stage area less if you had the sub at the front? Appreciate they are probably the least directional part of PA kit, but maybe sufficient to deal with the sense from the band/guitarist that it was sounding bass heavy? I've seen subs placed at the front and sides of stages which seemed to work well - also appreciate you're not going to have a stage for most pub gigs! 

Hiya, the subs were in front of us, the 'stage' was a raised part of the bar in an old coaching inn, about 120-150cm above the rest of the bar up a few steps on what an estate agent would call a mezzanine but which was the main route to the toilets So the sub was on the floor belowand in front of  stage right and directly below said guitarist. Like I said if he had put his in-ears in properly it wouldn't have been a problem. If I stick with this system I'll use the sub in place of one of the stands under on of the tops with the other top on a speaker stand. Positioning will probably be dictated by placing the most vulnerable speaker on the sub. I've not had a stand come crashing down on a drunk yet but it always seems an accident waiting to happen.

[Chienmortbb]

My band has bass guitar, two guitars, vocals and  an acoustic drum kit. The drummer is not a loud player, do you think a single sub would work in that scenario?

[Phil Starr]

54 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

My band has bass guitar, two guitars, vocals and  an acoustic drum kit. The drummer is not a loud player, do you think a single sub would work in that scenario?

Hi John. Absolutely.

 

I've got a sub here you can borrow to test it out. I know you still have the Wharfedale Titans I sold you so you can try it out at your next rehearsal/gig.

[Downunderwonder]

1 hour ago, Chienmortbb said:

My band has bass guitar, two guitars, vocals and  an acoustic drum kit. The drummer is not a loud player, do you think a single sub would work in that scenario?

Work out in what way?

 

Pub, don't need it, kickdrum just needs kicking.

 

Small club, mic up the kick, happy days.

 

Big club, have to be a double 18 single sub and everything else mic'd, or a low key night.

[Greg Edwards69]

A couple of articles I have found useful on subwoofer placement

How to Correctly Place a Subwoofer in a Room - Live Sound (qsc.com)

Bass In The Place (soundonsound.com)

 

My band only has one sub. Two would be ideal, but it is what it is, and we can only load so much into cars. We tested a couple of sub woofer positions in a "technical rehearsal" a few weeks ago. I readily admit that prior to this I was misinformed about "omnidiectional sound" of low end. It does not equal being unable to locate where the sound is coming from - just that it fires in all directions. Putting the sub next to one of the speakers sounded great on that side of the room, but you could definitely tell the bass was lacking when standing on the other side of the room.  Moving it to the middle, along the same plane as the tops solved the problem and it sounded great.  I 

 

But, as we all know, this isn't always viable in some venues, so we will have to make do with putting it to one side. We will just have to make a judgement on the best side to place it for maximum coverage.

 

In hindsight, we should have had a play with the contouring switches on the DXR12 tops with the sub on one side. These speaker have a hpf switch (100/120hz) and a contour switch that has a FOH mode which gives a gentle push on the low end - apparently, this is designed to alleviate the low-end loss you get by putting them up on poles. I would be inclined to try this if we need to put the sub on one side due to logistics

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

49 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

I readily admit that prior to this I was misinformed about "omnidiectional sound" of low end. It does not equal being unable to locate where the sound is coming from - just that it fires in all directions.

You're dealing with two separate, although related, effects. Speakers are omni-directional where the radiating plane, the baffle, is less than a wavelength in dimension. At 100Hz a wavelength is 3.4 meters, so all but the very largest pro-touring subs are omni-directional throughout their pass band. Being able to directionally locate a sound source requires a sufficient difference in the arrival times of a sound wave at the left and right ears. This is also related to wavelength, in that the distance between one's ears must be a significant portion of a wavelength for the arrival times to be sufficiently different. By and large 100Hz is the dividing line, coinciding with the pass band of subwoofers. However, the output of subs doesn't abruptly stop at their crossover frequency. They radiate significant harmonic content, especially when pushed hard. Those harmonics can make a sub directionally locatable.

Quote

Putting the sub next to one of the speakers sounded great on that side of the room, but you could definitely tell the bass was lacking when standing on the other side of the room.  Moving it to the middle, along the same plane as the tops solved the problem and it sounded great.

For that to be purely distance related said difference in placement difference would have to have been substantial. What's more likely is that the room boundary effects were responsible, based not only on the distance from the sub to the boundaries but also the distance from the listening positions to the boundaries. Getting sub placement perfect is very much an involved trial and error process, one that we seldom get the opportunity to undertake unless we can get into the room during off hours.