Compact budget PA set-up to put bass through (without back-line).

[Woodinblack]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Ordered 😊- just £20.50 on Amazon Prime.

 

Yep, for other peoples reference, also available at proper shops too!

 

[Phil Starr]

19 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Does come back to the question of whether mixing and matching a 912A and 932A is going to work? - I guess I'm going to be best placed to find out! Another mate of mine pointed out that given how close the speakers are in many aspects any downside should be, fingers crossed, limited and we can get some improvement in vox until I bag another 932A to get the full benefit.

I don't think you'll have any problems at all, especially if you are operating in dual mono rather than stereo. Certainly nothing is going to happen that will stop you entertaining your audiences. In the past when I had no money we mixed all sorts of amps and speakers using whatever we could get. I won't pretend it was ideal but these are two great speakers which are essentially flat response so sonically I don't think anyone in the audience will notice.

 

I did wonder about suggesting you buy the 932A. I think they'd be my first choice for our PA if I was buying today, my 745's are just so damn big, over the top in many venues. I recently acquired a single ART905 mkIII sub at a knockdown price and will be looking out for another, It's a great way to update and not spend too much if you have a plan and a bit of patience. Buying used when the opportunity arises means you usually get your money back when the time comes to take the next step up and sell of your old kit. Good move

[Al Krow]

5 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I don't think you'll have any problems at all, especially if you are operating in dual mono rather than stereo. Certainly nothing is going to happen that will stop you entertaining your audiences. In the past when I had no money we mixed all sorts of amps and speakers using whatever we could get. I won't pretend it was ideal but these are two great speakers which are essentially flat response so sonically I don't think anyone in the audience will notice.

 

I did wonder about suggesting you buy the 932A. I think they'd be my first choice for our PA if I was buying today, my 745's are just so damn big, over the top in many venues. I recently acquired a single ART905 mkIII sub at a knockdown price and will be looking out for another, It's a great way to update and not spend too much if you have a plan and a bit of patience. Buying used when the opportunity arises means you usually get your money back when the time comes to take the next step up and sell of your old kit. Good move

 

Thanks Phil. Let us know what you think of the ART 905 mkIII - I'm guessing you will be pairing with your 310As (or are they 910As now)?

[Jack]

We had a 905ii for ages with either 932s or 910s and it was a hell of a rig.

[Chienmortbb]

On 18/04/2025 at 13:31, Woodinblack said:

And you can also send an audio signal down the cable if you want to check where it is wired to, which has helped me a couple of times with 10M PA cables

That alone is worth having. 

[Phil Starr]

On 19/04/2025 at 13:58, Al Krow said:

 

Thanks Phil. Let us know what you think of the ART 905 mkIII - I'm guessing you will be pairing with your 310As (or are they 910As now)?

I'm still looking out for a pair of RCF 910's which are near enough to collect and at the right price. Though my duo did a gig on Sat at a large pub (an ex-Weatherspoons and I think an ex cinema before that) with just the 310's and no sub. and we cranked it up to 11 to compete with other venues along the street which had bands making more noise than us. They sounded really good, startingly good out in the audience area. We have my bass and synthesized drums going through them. The drums are probably compressed and the speakers have a limiter in the DSP but none of this was noticeable. I think the 127db rating in ad-speak, 121db in real money for the 310's must be pretty accurate and very comparable with the old 12" Yamaha S112IV Club Series speakers I used for years.

 

I've only used the ART 905 mkIII once, it sounded nice but was overkill for the venue, I had to crank it right down and it was barely on. My drummer was excited with the kick drum sound but nobody but she would have noticed mid gig. I bought it to replace my pair of Wharfedale 15" subs on the basis one of these would replace the two Wharfedales which are also heavier individually than the 905. The mkIII's also have a simple set up for Cardioid bass which is an added attraction. I only use subs once a year on average and only at open air gigs as the 15" tops I have never struggle indoors. I keep meaning to try the single 905 next to the pair of Wharfedales. The specs say they should be capable of matching each other in terms of volume.

 

BTW worth mentioning is that the Wharfedale T-sub 15B is a good budget priced alternative sub and well proven, it is basically identical with my EVP15 subs but with a lighter plywood cab, a new grille and a class D amp replacing the class AB amp in the EVP's making it 18kg lighter! You can pick up used Wharfedale EVP subs at under £300 each in good condition so if you can lift 43kg they are a real bargain and you can still repair the AB amp or replace the speakers if they blow so a long term option if you are on a budget.

[Al Krow]

Thanks for that Phil. Yeah 43 kg would be a non starter for me! I'm sensing you're not yet a covert to adding a sub, and might be happier with a couple of RCF 932As as your standalone rig?

 

Out of interest, what drum synth do you use with your duo?

[Phil Starr]

33 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Out of interest, what drum synth do you use with your duo?

Don't ask My duo partner programs everything he uses soundtrap an online app, if you sign up for a months trial it seems to stay free forever. We signed up for it during lockdown as a way of continuing to play together. It's a DAW really but very simple and straightforward if not vey flexible. Having learned to drive the program Mike is reluctant to change. You have to use their kits, so using a kick drum from one kit and a snare from another is an issue for example. Also won't let you change the time signature or put in a single bar of 2/4. Sounds great though and has moved our duo a long way forwardI'm not complaining because I don't do any of the work on the drums. We are much tighter as you have to be with backing tracks but the presence of drums has resulted in people dancing at every gig now and our set list evolving more quickly.

[Phil Starr]

44 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I'm sensing you're not yet a covert to adding a sub, and might be happier with a couple of RCF 932As as your standalone rig?

 

I'm against carrying stuff I don't need

 

Subs are a mixed blessing, more to set up and take down so I factor that in. You get a lot of bass coming back on-stage and monitoring without in-ears is an issue. That's why a cardioid set up appeals. I'm actually very happy with my RCF 745's as they do everything I want. Higher sound levels than I ever need including kick and bass, and a fabulous sound especially with acoustic instruments and voice where the big compression driver really scores. The ART 310's I love too as I've indicated above. Integrating the 1" driver with a 10" mid/bass is obviously more successful than trying to do it with a 15 so the big horn driver would be an unnecessary expense. 

 

I think the ART932 would be a better compromise for me. The smaller form factor would help at many gigs and I don't ever use the full capabilities of the 15" drivers. I'd looked hard at the 732 before I bought but the 745's came up in unused condition at a great price as a covid era bargain so I just jumped. The 932 wasn't available when I started looking. 

 

I'm also not convinced that small subs aren't really useful. A big sub needs big vehicles to carry them. I've run PA at open mic with some old JBL Eon subs, just 150W and the sound was exceptional. I've also some friends with an FBT (another Italian PA builder) system that has a 2x8 sub and that sounds terrific, I've been meaning to write that up sometime. I just don't like that overblown bass sound, I filter at 50Hz anywhere other than outdoors anyway. Almost no-one notices the difference and half of those that do prefer the HPF'd sound. Big subs do all the things that people claim so I'm not criticising but mainly they are running well below their capabilities. When buying would a single 12" sub you took to 80% of your gigs be better value than a couple of 15's or an !* that you left at home as too much hassle? That clearly is a decision which is personal to your circumstances but something I think people should think about before they buy. Subs are great but not a solution for every band or occasion.

[Woodinblack]

When I ran my alto 12s I had a behringer sub 12 that I took along to mainly outdoor events, and it certainly added something. Not saying it was brilliant, but it was better with it than without it and anything heavier than it would not have been brought, so it worked fine. I mean mostly it was just kick drum in it but it certainly projected, and obviously anything in that was not in the other speakers so I think it helped.

I haven't used it since getting the Evox 8, but I might do again this summer for some events

[Al Krow]

10 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I'm still looking out for a pair of RCF 910's which are near enough to collect and at the right price.

 

I'm wondering whether picking up a solitary 910A as and when it appears, rather than waiting for a pair might be a good alternative approach? 😊

 

On a completely separate note, and just thinking aloud (!): would it make any sense to try using a 12" PA speaker on the floor or if we have one going spare (or even better, your 745A!) and just use for low bass and kickdrum with crossover set at (say) 120Hz, plus HPF maybe at 30Hz, and then let your tops just deal with everything above 120Hz?

 

I suspect you would get a bigger sound than just your two 310A tops, and not have the weight of a heavy sub to deal with? What do you reckon?

[Phil Starr]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

I'm wondering whether picking up a solitary 910A as and when it appears, rather than waiting for a pair might be a good alternative approach? 😊

 

On a completely separate note, and just thinking aloud (!): would it make any sense to try using a 12" PA speaker on the floor or if we have one going spare (or even better, your 745A!) and just use for low bass and kickdrum with crossover set at (say) 120Hz, plus HPF maybe at 30Hz, and then let your tops just deal with everything above 120Hz?

 

I suspect you would get a bigger sound than just your two 310A tops, and not have the weight of a heavy sub to deal with? What do you reckon?

The design of the drivers in a sub differ from those used as mid bass drivers. The voice coil is usually bigger which dissipates heat and allows greater  power handling. The coil and supension are designed to allow greater excursion and the cone is heavier to reduce flexing and to lower the resonant frequency extending the bottom end of the frequency range. Collectively these changes mean a 15 in a full range cab is a different beast to a 15 in a sub. What I have considered is buying a small sub for use with the 10" tops. It isn't a problem though: I really do have all the bass I want from the 310's, and no issues to date with power handling.

 

 

Edited 17 hours ago by Phil Starr

[tauzero]

On 18/04/2025 at 13:31, Woodinblack said:

Absolutely, it shows you what is there. So unlike the more complicated and fussy CT200, the CT100 just has a grid of 3 leds that shows you what is connected to where, and 3 showing intermittant. So if you connect a TRS to TRS lead it will show you a straight line, pin1-pin1, pin2-pin2 etc. If you plug in a TS to TS it will show you 1-3 to 1-3, 2-2, so you can see it is fine.

Also when you plug something in, then you shake the lead and if the lights flicker (something loose) it will show on the intermittant line.

 

It is basically so dumb it is faultless and fast. Also you can do TRS-TS, Jack to XLR, 1/8" to ¼", Midi - Midi, Phono etc.

And you can also send an audio signal down the cable if you want to check where it is wired to, which has helped me a couple of times with 10M PA cables 

 

I've got both the CT100 and the CT200. The CT200 is fine for TS too, you just have to remember it will show shorts between R and S (not exactly a difficult thing to remember) - after all, it can't tell whether you've plugged in a TS lead or a TRS one with a frayed ring or sleeve connection. For gigging needs, the CT100 is fine, except for Speakons which it doesn't do.

[Woodinblack]

52 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

I've got both the CT100 and the CT200. The CT200 is fine for TS too, you just have to remember it will show shorts between R and S (not exactly a difficult thing to remember) - after all, it can't tell whether you've plugged in a TS lead or a TRS one with a frayed ring or sleeve connection. For gigging needs, the CT100 is fine, except for Speakons which it doesn't do.

 

Yes, the CT200 is fine. I got it to do speakons, but frankly, I haven't really had an issue with that so that one stays at home. I find the CT200 requires you to think about what you are seeing, it isn't as instant so the CT100 is the one that travels everywhere.