Compact budget PA set-up to put bass through (without back-line).

[EBS_freak]

There is a big statement to be made surrounding all of this. And it comes down to processing.

 

If you can play a piece of prerecorded music and it does the job through your PA speakers, it stands to reason that you could do the same. HOWEVER, nobody usually processes their live desk to represent what is happening in the studio. Lots of compressors, lots of limiters. And if you do, you'll typically get into feedback problems before too long. What I'm trying to say, is that you can normally extract more out of some PA boxes with some careful processing.

 

For my purposes, would I trust 10s... or even 12s? Well, I'm the 15 inch cab space for a reason. Out of the box, they can typically handle the bottom end better and tend to have more headroom without the need to go into more processing at the desk (which may not even be available to you).  

[Al Krow]

9 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

There is a big statement to be made surrounding all of this. And it comes down to processing.

 

If you can play a piece of prerecorded music and it does the job through your PA speakers, it stands to reason that you could do the same. HOWEVER, nobody usually processes their live desk to represent what is happening in the studio. Lots of compressors, lots of limiters. And if you do, you'll typically get into feedback problems before too long. What I'm trying to say, is that you can normally extract more out of some PA boxes with some careful processing.

 

For my purposes, would I trust 10s... or even 12s? Well, I'm the 15 inch cab space for a reason. Out of the box, they can typically handle the bottom end better and tend to have more headroom without the need to go into more processing at the desk (which may not even be available to you).  

 

Intuitively that all makes great sense. Interested why you prefer two 15s over say two 12s plus a decent sub?

 

The last sentence seems, on the surface, to chime against the often repeated mantra on this amps & cabs forum that "speaker cone size shouldn't make a difference to a cab's ability to handle bass" i.e. a 10" cone should be able give out the same depth of bass as a 15" cone; it's more about how the cones have been tuned and driver displacement? But then very few of us ever end up using just a single 10" speaker, although a single 12" speaker e.g. a BF SC or BB2 or 12" MB combo are a pretty common set up. But I guess that's maybe more the ability of a single 10" to handle a lot of wattage from an amp, whereas the BF BB2 can comfortably handle the power requirements for most indoor situations.

[Jack]

Do 15s inherently produce more bass than 10s? No. The drivers in my earbuds prove that. Can they? Yes, or at least they can produce more bass at louder volumes more easily. The average 15 pa cab has space for a bigger magnet (that can handle more power) in a bigger box that can be tuned lower. It's absolutely true that cone size is not a valid indicator of 'tone', but it's also true that you don't get too many 8" subwoofers at a Metallica arena gig.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Jack

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

 

Intuitively that all makes great sense. Interested why you prefer two 15s over say two 12s plus a decent sub?

 

The last sentence seems, on the surface, to chime against the often repeated mantra on this amps & cabs forum that "speaker cone size shouldn't make a difference to a cab's ability to handle bass" i.e. a 10" cone should be able give out the same depth of bass as a 15" cone; it's more about how the cones have been tuned and driver displacement? But then very few of us ever end up using just a single 10" speaker, although a single 12" speaker e.g. a BF SC or BB2 or 12" MB combo are a pretty common set up. But I guess that's maybe more the ability of a single 10" to handle a lot of wattage from an amp, whereas the BF BB2 can comfortably handle the power requirements for most indoor situations.

It's more about the box that it's put in! Yes, you can get high displacement drivers - but then that brings in other challenges. But in the interests of avoiding arguments, I'll keep my mouth shut.

 

I prefer 15s and 2x18 inch subs. I have the option of ditching the subs for the smaller gigs where I dont need the low end support and can work the tops harder. Ultimately it's about headroom. There's all these discussions about what size speakers sound better - but in reality, for the stuff that our ear is most sensitive to, it's the inclusion of a decent horn that is most important and the ability to lower the cross over point. (So in my cabs, it's the horns that are doing most of the lifting across the audio spectrum leaving the woofer to work purely on bass purposes. Of course, I can then free the woofer in the top even more by introducing the subs...  But ultimately that's a different discussion point.

 

As Jack alludes to... can you get lows out of a 10? Yes. Can you do that at volume? Well, not as easily as 15 can for the reasons that he mentioned. And of course, for a same x max, you are pushing way more air in a 15 than a 10. So whilst your 10 maybe able to handle the lows at low volume, can it do what you need it to when you start driving it up?

 

Incidentally, a band that I used to play with from time to time used a single 12 inch sub. Not great at all, it quickly ran out of headroom. However, when I introduced a trigger for the kick drum, with a highly processed sample and run through a limiter before hitting the sub, it hit surprisingly hard... but thats cos I was really controlling the dynamic range of the lows that was going to that sub. And of course, with it not being a mic, meant that I could process it pretty hard without the risk of feedback. A kick drum mic - you'd get nowhere near the equivalent out of that sub.

Edited February 20, 2023 by EBS_freak

[Chienmortbb]

I am glad that we have not descended into a speaker size debate. 

[Downunderwonder]

One well placed subwoofer is all you need in a pub.

[warwickhunt]

35 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

One well placed subwoofer is all you need in a pub.

 

I get sick of trying to tell bands that 2 subs 5-6m apart is worse than just 1 sub on its own... the looks I get when I say that max effect will be gained by stacking their 2 subs! 

 

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Downunderwonder said:

One well placed subwoofer is all you need in a pub.

Thats a very brave statement. Not all pubs are equal.

It also depends whether you are filling a dance floor with music... or the whole venue.

[EBS_freak]

45 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

 

I get sick of trying to tell bands that 2 subs 5-6m apart is worse than just 1 sub on its own... the looks I get when I say that max effect will be gained by stacking their 2 subs! 

 

Woah, now we are on the fringe of thread descending into chaos. Sub placement, separation, stacking, cross firing...  or... cardioid! 

 

Oops - forgot to include... the answer to underpowered band pub sub placement is normally coupling with a wall! (And then there's the risk of your band turning into swampy bass mush. Use with caution!  )

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by EBS_freak

[Chienmortbb]

2 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Woah, ne we are on the fringe of thread descending into chaos. Sub placement, separation, stacking, cross firing...  or... cardioid! 

 

Yes, it could get messy, many sound injuneers don't understand these concepts and I would not pretend to be an expert. Then you have us weakened warriors, dependent on the marketing BS of the PA manufacturers.

[Al Krow]

15 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

Yes, it could get messy, many sound injuneers don't understand these concepts and I would not pretend to be an expert. Then you have us weakened warriors, dependent on the marketing BS of the PA manufacturers.

 

Does that qualify them as unsound injuneers then? Just asking for a friend...

[Chienmortbb]

13 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Does that qualify them as unsound injuneers then? Just asking for a friend...

Don't put that hobby horse in front of me and expect me not to mount it. However, yes, I believe many do not understand subwoofer placement.

[Phil Starr]

On 19/02/2023 at 23:16, Pirellithecat said:

The sound produced by the  E string isn't great - it's quite dead , almost muffled. (Sandberg VM4, Roundwound D'addario NXYL's) strings)  As the frequency increases above 440Hz the sound is pretty good with more harmonic information. 

You said alongside so on the floor. I use ART 310's with my duo and bass with the cabs on the floor sounds awful, muffled and indistinct, put them on stands and they sound as good as it ever gets. They are designed to give a balanced output on stands not on the floor where the lowest frequencies are boosted by 6db. I've often wondered about taking a stand and putting the 310's at head height behind me but we are in-ears now so no backline needed and i don't take it to many gigs.

[Pirellithecat]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

You said alongside so on the floor. I use ART 310's with my duo and bass with the cabs on the floor sounds awful, muffled and indistinct, put them on stands and they sound as good as it ever gets. They are designed to give a balanced output on stands not on the floor where the lowest frequencies are boosted by 6db. I've often wondered about taking a stand and putting the 310's at head height behind me but we are in-ears now so no backline needed and i don't take it to many gigs.

Actually, both the 710 and the Sense 12 were on an open frame support about 500mm off the floor but it's a good observation and I certainly can't argue with experience.    As soon as I get the chance I'll use the PA speaker stands and try again.  Good call!     

[Greg Edwards69]

2 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

Actually, both the 710 and the Sense 12 were on an open frame support about 500mm off the floor but it's a good observation and I certainly can't argue with experience.    As soon as I get the chance I'll use the PA speaker stands and try again.  Good call!     

Not sure if this helps, but I seem to recall Bill Fitzmaurice mentioning that speakers need to be at least 2 and a half feet off the floor to isolate them from the boundary effect. 

[Pirellithecat]

2 and a half feet - ?750mm!    My bass cabs would be taller than me on a 750mm stand!   But, I'll try the 710's on PA stands as promised - just as soon as I can get them from the rehearsal space - I can hardly wait!! 🙂     

 

[Al Krow]

14 hours ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

Not sure if this helps, but I seem to recall Bill Fitzmaurice mentioning that speakers need to be at least 2 and a half feet off the floor to isolate them from the boundary effect. 

 

11 minutes ago, Pirellithecat said:

2 and a half feet - ?750mm!    My bass cabs would be taller than me on a 750mm stand!   But, I'll try the 710's on PA stands as promised - just as soon as I can get them from the rehearsal space - I can hardly wait!! 🙂     

 

 

19 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

You said alongside so on the floor. I use ART 310's with my duo and bass with the cabs on the floor sounds awful, muffled and indistinct, put them on stands and they sound as good as it ever gets. They are designed to give a balanced output on stands not on the floor where the lowest frequencies are boosted by 6db. I've often wondered about taking a stand and putting the 310's at head height behind me but we are in-ears now so no backline needed and i don't take it to many gigs.

 

I'm guessing that @Bill Fitzmaurice's advice wasn't necessarily intended to be applicable to bass cabs in relation to the boundary effect, though? Most of us have our bass cabs and subs on the floor precisely to take advantage of the additional 6dB of low frequency boost Phil mentioned, albeit maybe with a slight bass EQ cut or alternatively with judicious use of hpf + possibly a touch of bass EQ boost to give audiences that meaty low end thump.

[Pirellithecat]

OK - borrowed some speaker stands - rigged up PA using a small Soundcraft mixer.    Tried the Sandberg straight into the  mixer using HiZ input alone and with some Spotify piped in. 

Tonally, it's pretty much as before but clearer now it's centred at Ear level.    Yes some of the bass "muffle" has gone, but, for me at least, the E string performance is lacking -  "dead" if you like. 
Higher up the fretboard - probably OK. 

 

So, tried the D.I. route,  Sandberg> Genzler on-board D.I. preEQ > Mixer.   Sounds better - livelier all round and the sound is better - actually sounds as I expect a bass to sound.   However, the E string still sounds relatively "dead".

 

Carefully listening to piped-in music (OK it is from a phone via the mixer) I would say the "produced" bass has a similar tonal quality. 

 

I guess it all depends on what you're after, so probably OK if not loud.   Would it be OK for a 5 string ............not so sure.

 

Would I use the 710's for bass ...... in an emergency, yes, as a routine replacement for backline - no.     

So there you have it.   YMMV 

 

Interesting experiment , for me at least,   I clearly need bigger/better PA speakers if I'm going to succeed in reducing stage volumes I'll need some PA support.   Even then, unless  it's IEM's all round (unlikely) I'll need a backline amp/cab set-up.   Probably rather go for very good 12 inch PA speakers and no sub,  due to transportation .... for now at least.   I'll check my piggy bank 🙄

 

 

[Jack]

6 minutes ago, Pirellithecat said:

Probably rather go for very good 12 inch PA speakers and no sub,  due to transportation .... for now at least.   I'll check my piggy bank 

Can't recommend the qsc k12.2 enough. 

[Al Krow]

55 minutes ago, Jack said:

Can't recommend the qsc k12.2 enough. 

 

The QSC's are around £975 each vs £800 for the top of the range RCFs 932A (or a paltry, by comparison, £533 each for the RCF 912As I've got). Are the QSC's a significantly better product than the RCFs?

[EBS_freak]

It’s the middle digit in the RCF

models that gets you the benefits! The more you can offload through the horn, the better.

Edited February 22, 2023 by EBS_freak

[jrixn1]

 

On 20/02/2023 at 08:51, Al Krow said:

many folk are very happy with a 1x12" or 2x10" cab as backline. Obviously having a decent quality cab with the ability to handle reasonably chunky wattage helps, but I never found my Vanderkley 210s or my BF BB2 or SC 1x12" lacking,

 

I've used two RCF HD 10-A mk4 next to each other, on the floor, in the place of traditional backline, and it was great with a five-string bass, and very loud.  E.g. filled a hotel ballroom without PA support.  But I wouldn't want them separated and on poles as the entire FOH PA for a whole band.

 

 

On 17/02/2023 at 10:35, Al Krow said:

In terms of handling bass through these, what are folks views experiences with:

a) using them as standalone to put bass through;

b) combining with a small bass rig e.g. a Markbass CMD121 combo; or

c) combining with a sub;

 

Is it pretty common to consider (b) and (c) as workable alternatives? Are there particular benefits to one over the other?

 

Are you ever going to do bigger/louder gigs than what you currently do?  Because (b) isn't scalable - you can't increase FOH volume without increasing the stage volume.  You ideally want the two to operate independently. Also you can't put kick (or anything else which would normally go through subs) through the bass amp.

[Al Krow]

Thanks John. With regard to your second point, scalability of (b) could perhaps be achieved by using the bass combo in the same position as you'd put the sub woofer ie don't use it as backline but as part of the FoH set up?

 

I guess if you wanted, you could put the kick through both the PA and bass cab (eg making use of a Boss LS2), but if the tops are not having to solely handle the bass, they should have more headroom to handle the kick. (Besides, if drummers want the benefit of a sub I'd be inclined to encourage them to get and store one themselves - I certainly don't want to volunteer to be lugging the thing, haha!) 

[jrixn1]

It sounds like a bodge.  Do you already own a CMD 121 - is that the consideration?  But they are just different things - a sub doesn't normally put out anything above 150Hz, and can put out much more volume at 40-150Hz compared to a bass amp.

 

I wouldn't say that the kick going through a sub benefits the drummer; it benefits the audience.  You need to work together to get the best sound for the whole band!

 

I know subs cost money, and have to be stored somewhere, and someone needs to bring them to the gig.  I'm fortunate in my current band that I don't buy or store any of the PA.  But I have been in bands in the past where the tops are at the guitarist's house, and the sub is at the drummer's house, but the guitarist is depping out next week's gig so the singer had probably better take the tops home after tonight's gig, or the drummer's coming from his aunt's house that weekend so can't bring the sub, etc...so yes I do appreciate the issues.

 

But unless I misremember, I thought you already had a sub - an RCF 708?  How did that work out, and what tops did you use with it?  Or it also seems you're happy with your RCF 912s - other than you don't like hauling them around.  TBH I've lost track of how many bands you're in, or what gear you have!  In terms of gig fees, do you get an extra share for providing the PA - and if not, would that change the situation enough for you?  I can't quite remember but I think in my previous band, an eight-piece, the money was split nine ways, with half of the ninth going to whoever brought the PA, and half going to whoever booked the gig - or something along those lines.

[Al Krow]

Yes I do own a CMD 121H. A bass rig with PA support is a pretty standard set up, right - so not sure why it would be a bodge?

I had a RCF 702 which we used with 310A tops - it was ok, but not transformative.

The recently acquired RCF 912As are fine without a sub for our needs; sounded great at a wedding we played at over the weekend and my bandmates described them as a "massive step-up" over the 310As. They did sound good! 

The 710As are going to be a second/spare band PA for one of my bands, which our singer can also then use for her solo work - portability will be a factor for that and they're not too bulky. My thinking is if we are using them as tops, then for larger venues I can take along the CMD 121H for a bit of additional low end support. Certainly won't hurt.