Compact budget PA set-up to put bass through (without back-line).

[Jack]

On 11/03/2023 at 17:23, Al Krow said:

I managed to source a pair of new 732A Mk4s for our band at a reasonable price with the assitance of @Pirellithecat, so I owe him an A/B comparison of my 912A vs the 732A.

The 732A are about 40% dearer, but as @EBS_freak mentioned, the 3" horn provides a significant step up for vocals and mids over the 1" horn on the 912A in terms of articulation and power. If you can afford the extra then I think it's going to be well worth it. 

 

Link to a sound test comparison 912A vs 732A Mk4

 

I'm surprised it's THAT obvious, I wonder what other factors are at play. However, I/we said as much

[Chienmortbb]

I would be interested to hear from one of our resident experts, I know @stevie have spent thosands of hours auditioning horn and compression drivers and i seem to remember that thw wrong horn  can annihilate even the best compression driver. However according to @Phil Starr(I hope I am not mis-qouting him here) the  crossover point is the cricial bit. 700Hz on the 732 against 1800Hz on the 915. The 1000-3000 KHz region is the critical area for vocals, especially female vocals and a goo design woill trt to crossover below that. 

[Phil Starr]

4 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

I would be interested to hear from one of our resident experts, I know @stevie have spent thosands of hours auditioning horn and compression drivers and i seem to remember that thw wrong horn  can annihilate even the best compression driver. However according to @Phil Starr(I hope I am not mis-qouting him here) the  crossover point is the cricial bit. 700Hz on the 732 against 1800Hz on the 915. The 1000-3000 KHz region is the critical area for vocals, especially female vocals and a goo design woill trt to crossover below that. 

One of the crucial bits. If you look at the equal loudness curves you can see our ears are most sensitive in the 2-5kHz region and there are always irregularities around the crossover region so moving it away from those frequencies makes sense. However horns introduce their own distortions and bigger diaphragms in the compression drivers create their own problems so there isn't one solution. The difference is what you would expect with the horn rather than the mid-bass driver handling more of the vocal frequencies but there may be other factors.

 

One of the things I've found in listening tests is that sometimes a couple of resonances can really make a particular voice or instrument really jump out of the mix and suit a particular song or instrument. I was really impressed by the difference and slightly surprised by just how much extra detail I was hearing but without a lot more testing and listening it is too easy to jump to conclusions.

[Pirellithecat]

I'm looking forward to an update from Al 😉 after a few gigs, (it'll be fascinating to see how empirical observation aligns with theory).  I find it  really difficult to judge PA speakers other than by hearing them in a live setting with a band.   I do hope you've got a lot of gigs within the next 3 weeks Al - 'cos I "need" some new PA speakers for the 8th April .......  😄

[Al Krow]

4 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

I'm looking forward to an update from Al 😉 after a few gigs, (it'll be fascinating to see how empirical observation aligns with theory).  I find it  really difficult to judge PA speakers other than by hearing them in a live setting with a band.   I do hope you've got a lot of gigs within the next 3 weeks Al - 'cos I "need" some new PA speakers for the 8th April .......  😄

 

Aww buddy, I can tell you after one gig (although we do have another couple coming up, this weekend, but it will be my turn to take the PA so the 912As) - if you're happy to pay the extra and you feel vocals are important to your band's sound (and, frankly our singers are literally front and centre of both my covers bands), then just go for the RCF 732As. They're excellent.

[JPJ]

So I’m on the edge of upgrading my FOH speakers, nothing particularly wrong with the EV ZLX15P’s I currently use as tops, but anything more than a smidging of guitars and bass and it becomes very difficult to get the vocals ‘on top’ of the mix and they really need the support of bass bins to get a good sound. Years ago, we used to have a pair of enormous and unbelievably heavy Mackie 1532 columns (2x15 woofers,  plus midrange, plus high) and whilst they weren’t all that powerful or efficient, they did do a good job for the full band both with and without the support of a bass bin or two. Oh and they looked mighty impressive too (I know, size isn’t everything 😊).

Given advances in loudspeaker and amplifier technology, is anyone aware of a manufacturer offering a similar to the Mackie multi-speaker one box solution for the average pub band or am I overthinking again ☺️

[Phil Starr]

1 hour ago, JPJ said:

So I’m on the edge of upgrading my FOH speakers, nothing particularly wrong with the EV ZLX15P’s I currently use as tops, but anything more than a smidging of guitars and bass and it becomes very difficult to get the vocals ‘on top’ of the mix and they really need the support of bass bins to get a good sound. Years ago, we used to have a pair of enormous and unbelievably heavy Mackie 1532 columns (2x15 woofers,  plus midrange, plus high) and whilst they weren’t all that powerful or efficient, they did do a good job for the full band both with and without the support of a bass bin or two. Oh and they looked mighty impressive too (I know, size isn’t everything 😊).

Given advances in loudspeaker and amplifier technology, is anyone aware of a manufacturer offering a similar to the Mackie multi-speaker one box solution for the average pub band or am I overthinking again ☺️

I always liked those old Mackie's and one of the 'older' local band still uses some. It's hard to think of anyone who does a three way design now. If you want that clarity of midrange then getting the crossover point down with a high quality compression driver is where the effort is going, that or one of the 'stick' systems.

 

I've probably said this before but the weak link in most PA systems is usually the person setting it up, and for a pub band with no-one on the desk anyone has an impossible task. You can get a great sound out of those ZLX15's so the uplift is not going to be stupendous unless your budget is huge. I'd happily gig with them though uplift might be an issue, they ain't lightweights.

 

You need to have a spec in mind or to at least know what you want to achieve. Are you after better sound, the big RCF compression drivers will sort your vocal issues. Anything with a 3 or 4 as the second number (735 or 945) means they have a 3" or 4" horn driver taking care of most of the vocals. Then do you want to lighten the lift or reduce the no. of boxes you carry? If you are always going to take subs then you won't need to be taking 15's as tops, depending upon your absolute volume you might get away with 10's. If you want to fill most venues, put kick and bass through the PA and not use subs then a couple of 15's are probably your best bet, but decent 12's will do most pub venues. If tidy and professional looking is important and you are doing function work where they don't want rock band volumes then at a price the better 'sticks' are worth a look.

 

Then there is budget, how much are you wanting to spend? I see that the EV's are still around @ £500ea so £1,000 isn't going to get anything dramatically better unless you buy used. 

[Jack]

When we upgraded the pa in one of our schools (previous job) we decided to move from a very ill conceived line array (that was technically not a line array) to a traditional trap. We were fresh out of our Yamaha sponsorship as well, meaning we could get whatever we wanted.

 

We ended up buying the QSC KW153 and let me tell you, they are superb.

 

I'm not sure they'd be my first choice for portable use as they still really need some kind of stand to get above head height and at 40kg the weight terrified me every time a kid walked under it. We were just constrained by not wanting to alter the flying hardware, which necessitated two boxes and no sub really. Having said that, there's no denying that they're a serious 2-box pa system, which is exactly what you asked for.

[Chienmortbb]

When I was a lad in broadcast TV, we had two categories of equipment for news gathering. One was portable, could be used by a single person on the shoulder, the other was transportable. Transportable was a two person lift. The QSC KW153 are a nice speaker but way over the recommend  one person lift, in the terms above, transportable. Fine if you have roadies a mechanical handling equipment. 
 

To some degree you cannot get away from the fact that big is best but in reality it is the biggest you can manage or get away with  sonically. 

[Chienmortbb]

On 03/04/2023 at 15:13, Phil Starr said:

the person setting it up,

In computing this is called the “wet ware”. 

[JPJ]

On 03/04/2023 at 15:13, Phil Starr said:

I always liked those old Mackie's and one of the 'older' local band still uses some. It's hard to think of anyone who does a three way design now. If you want that clarity of midrange then getting the crossover point down with a high quality compression driver is where the effort is going, that or one of the 'stick' systems.

 

I've probably said this before but the weak link in most PA systems is usually the person setting it up, and for a pub band with no-one on the desk anyone has an impossible task. You can get a great sound out of those ZLX15's so the uplift is not going to be stupendous unless your budget is huge. I'd happily gig with them though uplift might be an issue, they ain't lightweights.

 

You need to have a spec in mind or to at least know what you want to achieve. Are you after better sound, the big RCF compression drivers will sort your vocal issues. Anything with a 3 or 4 as the second number (735 or 945) means they have a 3" or 4" horn driver taking care of most of the vocals. Then do you want to lighten the lift or reduce the no. of boxes you carry? If you are always going to take subs then you won't need to be taking 15's as tops, depending upon your absolute volume you might get away with 10's. If you want to fill most venues, put kick and bass through the PA and not use subs then a couple of 15's are probably your best bet, but decent 12's will do most pub venues. If tidy and professional looking is important and you are doing function work where they don't want rock band volumes then at a price the better 'sticks' are worth a look.

 

Then there is budget, how much are you wanting to spend? I see that the EV's are still around @ £500ea so £1,000 isn't going to get anything dramatically better unless you buy used. 

Thanks Phil, I should really have been clearer. 
The ZLX15P’s have indeed served me well, and are normally paired with two old powered Peavey pro 15” subs. All the kit is a one-man lift, and I like to think I’ve got my rig dialled in pretty nicely (I’ve certainly had compliments on our sound). 
I guess my real issue is volume. If you push the ZLX’s too hard, then they become very prone to feedback mostly due to proximity to either of the guitarists mics. They’re only rated at max spl of 128. I admit this has become less of an issue since I added a DriveRack and pinked our ‘system’, and like most amateurs I’m still tweaking to get the most out of the boxes I have (panning has been a revelation). 
My question was really is there a single box per side solution capable of projecting a five-piece band to the back of the room be that a pub or a small club. 
Oh and I’m a gear slut who loves new gear and the ZLX’s are probably five years old and the subs probably ten. So I guess I’m tempted to ‘upgrade’ simply for a bit more usable headroom overall. 

[EBS_freak]

2 minutes ago, JPJ said:

My question was really is there a single box per side solution capable of projecting a five-piece band to the back of the room be that a pub or a small club. 

745s are probably the closest to getting that sensible(ish) priced one box per side solution. Remember though, ye cannae change the laws of physics.

Dont get too dependent on a drive rack and flattening the response. The room changes when people are in it... and if you are trying to flatten whilst people in the room, you'll soon start peeing people off!

 

[Phil Starr]

On 04/04/2023 at 23:52, JPJ said:

Thanks Phil, I should really have been clearer. 
The ZLX15P’s have indeed served me well, and are normally paired with two old powered Peavey pro 15” subs. All the kit is a one-man lift, and I like to think I’ve got my rig dialled in pretty nicely (I’ve certainly had compliments on our sound). 
I guess my real issue is volume. If you push the ZLX’s too hard, then they become very prone to feedback mostly due to proximity to either of the guitarists mics. They’re only rated at max spl of 128. I admit this has become less of an issue since I added a DriveRack and pinked our ‘system’, and like most amateurs I’m still tweaking to get the most out of the boxes I have (panning has been a revelation). 
My question was really is there a single box per side solution capable of projecting a five-piece band to the back of the room be that a pub or a small club. 
Oh and I’m a gear slut who loves new gear and the ZLX’s are probably five years old and the subs probably ten. So I guess I’m tempted to ‘upgrade’ simply for a bit more usable headroom overall. 

 

OK that helps, on the feedback issue Russ is right that room acoustics are often the dominant cause of resonances and feedback but I also find that frequency anomalies in the speakers will add to that and you may get a couple more db of gain before feedback. It's a long time since I auditioned the ZLX's and it was the 12's I listened to but they did have a slight smiley face response and weren't flat through the crossover area. Certainly swapping my ancient Wharfedales for RCF's as monitors gave me a huge increase in available gain.

 

Don't take manufacturers claims on spl's too seriously, they are largely fantasy. I've seen claims of 137db from Yamaha for a 12" speaker which is arrant nonsense. The amplifier claims are also nonsense. I've seen speakers admitting to 97db/W with 1000W amps claiming 130db. Now the thing is that no 12" speaker will handle 1000W, 300W is more likelyand 500W fairly exceptional so the DSP protects the speaker by limiting the power. 1000W into a 97db speaker is mathematically 127db, they get 130db by 'calculating' at  a peak power of 2000W which the amplifier won't do and the speaker couldn't handle anyway. I was impressed by EV's near honesty. I'll stop ranting now

 

So, I plumped for the RCF ART745's as the best value solution for me. They are building some really nice speakers at the moment and for me are the one to beat. Going for the models with the 3" and 4" compression drivers gives you real clarity through the vocal range as the crossovers can be at lower frequencies. If you are happy to use subs then I might go for 12's, the only downside of the 15's is size and weight and for most of our venues the 745's are probably overkill. Bass and drums are all though the PA with an all electric kit. 

 

Our previous speakers were QSC12-2's We are a pop/party band so not the loudest but pretty loud, these 12's never struggled for volume with feedback being the limiting factor rather than headroom. The 745's sound better and never break sweat in the pubs and clubs we play.

 

What mics are you using, and what monitors? That may help your feedback problems

Edited July 21, 2023 by Phil Starr

[Greg Edwards69]

FWIW, we’ve recently acquired a subwoofer - an EV ELX200-12SP to beef up our PA system (up till now, just two Yamaha DXR12 speakers up on poles) and tried it out for the first time last night. As I’ve mentioned on another thread, it’s made us realise we need to spend some time with all of the PA gear in a rehearsal space to optimise it all as best as possible and know how to deal with certain common issues quickly.

 

Currently me and the two guitarists have been using an FRFR speaker each as backline/personal instrument monitor (DXR10 for guitars and my headrush 112 for bass). I noticed last night that the sound out front was very different to my frfr. Much less mids, and note definition - almost compressed sounding  - even with the eq set flat and compression bypassed on my mixer channel. That said it probably wasn’t the best venue to try it out in either - it’s quite a boomy place, or possibly the sub was turned up too high, although it didn't sound like it.

 

We’ve also been looking into better IEM solutions too (the cheap G4M one we have is fine for bass but doesn’t handle a full mix, esp bass). Whilst the guitarists were considering ditching the backline if we sorted out IEM situation, I’ve adamantly retained my frfr until we got a sub, due to the low end loss sticking the main speakers up on poles.

 

As such, me and one of the guitarists have recently started using an Xvive U4 system. After being plagued with interference the first time we used it, we've since got our channels optimised and it worked great last night. Although we both said it sounded a little too bright and shrill, certainly much, much brighter than the PA. Both of us are using KZ ZS10 earphones, so I wonder if there's something else at play. The desk is a Yamaha MG20XU. So the only eq is on each channel strips that unfortunately also affects the aux sends. The only solution we can think of is an external eq for the IEM.

 

So yes. We definitely need to spend some more time with this gear in a controlled environment!

 

PS, full disclosure. The PA system belongs to one the guitarists father, who usually runs the sound for us. Lovely guy but I believe he turned 80 in the last year or so and I’m not sure he’s up to the task of managing our live sound as well as he used to, so I think I it is prudent for us to spend time with the gear with a view to managing it ourselves. Personally, I think I have the best ear in the band, and I’d love to do the work myself, but it’s not easy playing bass at the same time and having a couple of other in the band also wanting to control the mix without as much knowledge.

 

[JPJ]

On 03/04/2023 at 15:13, Phil Starr said:You can get a great sound out of those ZLX15's so the uplift is not going to be stupendous unless your budget is huge. I'd happily gig with them though uplift might be an issue, they ain't lightweights.

 

You’re not wrong Phil. Last nights gig was a smallish pub, good stage area facing a long thin room with the bar on one side. No need or room for bass bins so I stuck the ZX15’s on stands and pushed everything (2 x vocal, 2 x guitars, fiddle, bass, and drums through them). Spent a little bit of time dialling in the EQ (got to love the RTA on the X-Air for this) and they did a great job. Got compliments on the mix from a couple of musicians in the audience too. Ok we are not the loudest band but this setup was perfect for this gig. 

[mrtcat]

If it helps in any way, our current rig is 2 x RCF745A and 2 x RCF Sub 705 AS2 

On gigs where a limiter is particularly strict the 745s will handle Guitar, Bass, Electric Drum Kit, Bass, Keys and 3 vocals. Would I want to use them alone to play in a rowdy pub? No but adding just one sub completely changes things and adding both subs makes a really solid system for audiences of up to 200. 

The 4 inch compression driver is a massive part of the sound. Vocals are just so much clearer and the high end never sounds harsh despite our guitarists best efforts.

[Phil Starr]

I'm just revisiting this thread after our gig last Saturday which kind of demonstrated to me just how far you can push modern PA systems.

 

I probably took the wrong speakers to the gig, we were booked to play in a pub garden in the early evening whilst people were eating. We describe ourselves as a semi acoustic duo and the landlord was making plans to move us inside because of inclement weather. Then the sun came out. The pub is on a regular walk we do in the middle of nowhere with the best views over the Dorset AONB, absolutely stunning. Music is a new venture for the pub and 5-30 on a Sat seemed madness to me. Indoors the rooms are small and I wasn't expecting a big audience given the expected rain. I decided to take the RCF310's and not the 15's.

 

So we set off and the sun comes out before we get there, the pub absolutely knew what it was doing. They'd closed the restaurant and set up a barbeque ended up with at least 70people spread around the garden in pods and at the usual pub picnic tables, some of the tables were 40m away from us. New situation for us but two RCF 310's were looking very inadequate.

 

So we are two vox, guitar and bass with programmed drums for some songs playing cheesy covers. No backline with two ART 310's plus another two as floor monitors covering around 12,000sq ft in the open air with no backline, hmmm

 

So set up and out front using all our saved settings there is a distinct lack of bass and with the sun on the speakers I can see the cones are moving a lot, I'm not going to have a lot of volume left. I roll off the bass below 50Hz fairly sharply and boost a bit of everything in the upper bass/low mids and I've got the bass itself with a 24db/octave filter that I move from 30Hz to 40Hz and just turn it all up a bit more. The bass has warmed up a bit and with a couple of extra db is sitting better in the mix. It's the best I can do.

 

So we start and the first thing that happens is we are asked to turn down, the oldest people in the pub have chosen the table closest to the band. the staff see what is going on and the people on that table disappear inside to finish their meal.

 

I wandered down into the garden a couple of times to check the sound, and also if I'm honest to see how far I could get with my new Lekato wireless thingies (about 30m as it happens) the sound is stunning, vocals guitar and bass all crystal clear. The punters are all happy and people 30m away are singing along now they've finished their food. It's loud enough that they are not self conscious. By the end of the gig we have some dancing. I ask around at the break and everybody says that the sound level is about right and the people at the far end say we have been louder than anyone else so far and that was good. The overload lights on the speakers have flickered a few times but it isn't noticeably distorted out front.

 

So there you go bass and eDrums through a couple of 10" tops in a large garden outdoors and it can be done. The same system indoors would have been deafening with 70 people and we would have backed it off quite a lot.

 

 

[Stub Mandrel]

On 12/03/2023 at 16:13, Al Krow said:

My conclusion from this past year (with some very helpful input indeed on this thread, thank you!) is that in terms of relatively compact PA set-ups, with no bass line or subs:

RCF310A (relatively budget) --> RCF 912A = big improvement in bass handling --> RCF 732A = further significant improvement in vocals / mids (but looking at double the price of the 310As)

 

Not quite in my budget zone I'm afraid.

[Al Krow]

On 23/04/2023 at 22:29, Greg Edwards69 said:

FWIW, we’ve recently acquired a subwoofer - an EV ELX200-12SP to beef up our PA system (up till now, just two Yamaha DXR12 speakers up on poles) and tried it out for the first time last night. As I’ve mentioned on another thread, it’s made us realise we need to spend some time with all of the PA gear in a rehearsal space to optimise it all as best as possible and know how to deal with certain common issues quickly.

 

Currently me and the two guitarists have been using an FRFR speaker each as backline/personal instrument monitor (DXR10 for guitars and my headrush 112 for bass). I noticed last night that the sound out front was very different to my frfr. Much less mids, and note definition - almost compressed sounding  - even with the eq set flat and compression bypassed on my mixer channel. That said it probably wasn’t the best venue to try it out in either - it’s quite a boomy place, or possibly the sub was turned up too high, although it didn't sound like it.

 

We’ve also been looking into better IEM solutions too (the cheap G4M one we have is fine for bass but doesn’t handle a full mix, esp bass). Whilst the guitarists were considering ditching the backline if we sorted out IEM situation, I’ve adamantly retained my frfr until we got a sub, due to the low end loss sticking the main speakers up on poles.

 

As such, me and one of the guitarists have recently started using an Xvive U4 system. After being plagued with interference the first time we used it, we've since got our channels optimised and it worked great last night. Although we both said it sounded a little too bright and shrill, certainly much, much brighter than the PA. Both of us are using KZ ZS10 earphones, so I wonder if there's something else at play. The desk is a Yamaha MG20XU. So the only eq is on each channel strips that unfortunately also affects the aux sends. The only solution we can think of is an external eq for the IEM.

 

So yes. We definitely need to spend some more time with this gear in a controlled environment!

 

PS, full disclosure. The PA system belongs to one the guitarists father, who usually runs the sound for us. Lovely guy but I believe he turned 80 in the last year or so and I’m not sure he’s up to the task of managing our live sound as well as he used to, so I think I it is prudent for us to spend time with the gear with a view to managing it ourselves. Personally, I think I have the best ear in the band, and I’d love to do the work myself, but it’s not easy playing bass at the same time and having a couple of other in the band also wanting to control the mix without as much knowledge.

 

 

Did you manage to get any improvement on the IEM sound?

 

I guess we've been pretty content with our KZ ZS10 Pros for monitoring, which coincidentally we are also using with the Xvive U4 wireless system (decent value and very compact), as we can hear each other pretty clearly, albeit I do boost the bass on my individual mix! Tbh I've not really expected that the sound from the £50 KZ IEM headphones should be on a par with what our RCF 912A (£1k) or 735A (£1.5k) PA speakers are delivering FoH. But maybe I would if I had invested £650+ for the UE6 or similar high-end IEM headphones. The fairer comparison would be with the £200 monitor we previously used and the IEMs are decently on a par with that and obviously present us with less feedback issues.

 

Out of interest what channels did you settle on for Xvive U4s? Singer and I are using 1 and 5 respectively, which seem to be working fine.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Al Krow

[Greg Edwards69]

4 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Did you manage to get any improvement on the IEM sound?

 

I guess we've been pretty content with our KZ ZS10Pros for monitoring, which coincidentally we are also using with the Xvive U4 wireless system (decent value and very compact), as we can hear each other pretty clearly, albeit I do boost the bass on my individual mix! Tbh I've not really expected that the sound from the £50 KZ IEM headphones should be on a par with what our RCF 912A (£1k) or 735A (£1.5k ) PA speakers are delivering FoH. But maybe I would if I had invested £650+ for the UE6 or similar high-end IEM headphones. The fairer comparison would be with the £200 monitor we previously used and the IEMs are decently on a par with that, and obviously present less us with feedback issues.

 

Out of interest what channels did you settle on for Xvive U4s? Singer and I are using 1 and 5 respectively, which seem to be working fine.

Yes, we're gradually getting there, to the point that our last gig a couple of days ago was the first one that we didn't set up the backline at all and relied on the IEM.  To keep things simple, we're all using the same mix. 3 of us are using the Xvive system from one transmitter and the others are wired with Behringer P2 packs, all running off a passive splitter. I think the mix needs slightly adjusting, but it's okay, and difficult to keep everyone happy. To be honest, I think all of us are in the 'a little bit of everything' camp in terms of mix, so a mix that's representative of what's out front is fine. Whilst I'd love to have discrete control over my personal mix, it will need considerable investment. 

 

That said, I believe we have access to an X-Air stagebox mixer, but it will take a lot of time and work getting it gig ready.  We've just got our existing system working nicely, so baby steps for now!. The other problem is simply finding the time to do this work. It's difficult enough getting us all in the same room together as it is!

 

The only thing I think that can improve things as they are is replacing my IEMs.  I'm using the original KZ ZS10 IEMs. Not the pro versions. After looking into it yesterday, I see they are a little weak and unrefined in the low end and known for being slightly shrill. I think I may invest in a set of ZS10 Pro X units that appear to have a better profile for bassists. Otherwise, I hear good think about the CCA C12 units too.

 

We've settled on channel 5 for the Xvive U4. It's completely clear from the 4 channels of one of the guitarist's U2 wireless unit*, and it doesn't seem to interfere with the singer's wireless mic since we discovered that the U4 and mic transmitter must be kept at least 3 meters apart. 

 

*That said, he had a dropout on his IEM on Sunday. Not sure why, but it came back after a minute, and the rest of us were fine, and I was standing a metre away from him. But I made sure all of our tablets and other devices were set to airplane mode, which may have been the culrprit.

[Greg Edwards69]

Just found this resource, that appears to be most helpful.  He's also put a sub $100 video review together.

https://crinacle.com/rankings/iems/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks6PGwD6Cjo&ab_channel=crinacle

 

On the strength of that, a set of Moondrop Aria IEMS appear to be the one to get. 

[Chienmortbb]

3 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

So there you go bass and eDrums through a couple of 10" tops in a large garden outdoors and it can be done. The same system indoors would have been deafening with 70 people and we would have backed it off quite a lot.

 

 

Do you think this indicates that we place too much emphasis on the low end? Would a drummer with a mic’d up kit change the situation?

 

I suspect that unless you were a reggae/dub band a good pair of 12s would be more than enough for most pub gigs. 

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Chienmortbb said:

Do you think this indicates that we place too much emphasis on the low end? Would a drummer with a mic’d up kit change the situation?

 

I suspect that unless you were a reggae/dub band a good pair of 12s would be more than enough for most pub gigs. 

 

I think the key part of that is "a good pair of 12s". In which case, sure, definitely perfectly decent for most pub gigs.

 

Having said that when I've heard bands with decent subs added to good 12" tops, it's definitely been a "bigger" sound, and if the vibe is dance music rather than "listen to" music then that bigger sound can make quite a difference.

[Chienmortbb]

55 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

and if the vibe is dance music rather than "listen to" music then that bigger sound can make quite a difference.

What do you call Dance Music? It's not a trick question, I am just interested.

[Woodinblack]

17 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

What do you call Dance Music? It's not a trick question, I am just interested.

 

I would read that as music with just a constant thudding beat all the way through it and not really much else going on - you would expect a lot more lower bass.