Compact budget PA set-up to put bass through (without back-line).

[Al Krow]

As a general point, if you are using PA speakers without backline or subwoofer, would you ever consider a default set up of one PA speaker on the floor, to give the bass a boost, and the other pole mounted in standard fashion to carry the vox across the room? Or would that be considered a sub optimal set up?

[Phil Starr]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

As a general point, if you are using PA speakers without backline or subwoofer, would you ever consider a default set up of one PA speaker on the floor, to give the bass a boost, and the other pole mounted in standard fashion to carry the vox across the room? Or would that be considered a sub optimal set up?

Sub optimal really. If you use a crossover then you are simply using the same drive unit to do the same thing instead of the one on the pole, although the floor would potentially enhance the bass a bit. Without the crossover you potentially could be sharing the load but your mid/treble would be coming from two sources well spaced apart with multiple path lengths to the audience creating phase distortions/comb filtering. If you just passed the bass to the bottom speaker you wopuld have a bass boost  over the horns output and would have to re-eq cutting back to where you were. You could potentially fly a pair of PA speakers in a line array, vertically aligned which would give you 6db more sound and an altered radiation pattern, though ideally you'd rotate the horns to keep their radiation wider than they are high.

[Phil Starr]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

The best prices I can find online currently are:

932A - £790

NX 932A - £1,099

(Then need to add another £50 for the RCF padded covers, which are worth getting).

 

So a pair of NX's are going to add another £600, which is decently chunky and I suspect that the tough plastic casing is going to cope with the usual knocks that all bass gear gets in live use and, paradoxically, where a more rigid structure is likely to cope less well?

I think that £600 is a lot of money and better spent elsewhere. It'd go a long way towards a digital mixer or would buy a decent light show for the band so unless funds really aren't an issue I'd be taking a broader view.

 

If it helps I'd probably now buy the 932's over the 745's which I love. The 745's have given me a great sound and have coped with everythingI've done since I bought them including outdoor gigs without needing subs which I have 'just in case'. Our sound is limited more by the lack of a FOH engineer much more than the gear we are using and the 932's would take up less space to store/transport and probably give me very similar performance to the 745's. The 932's weren't an option back when I bought and the 745's are just too big to be ideal. I don't often give categoric advice but I think we know each other well enough? Buy the ART 932's sell the 912's and you'll be happily gigging them for years, I think you already know they are a good match to your needs. I doubt you'll ever need a sub but you can add that if it becomes a burning need.

 

I'm increasingly taking a financial and practical view of PA. My band are going out for £320-350 split four ways. My duo for £180-200 and are getting more bookings. We sound great in the sense of good clear sound and a decent mix, not so sure of the backing vocals If I invest it will be on the basis of how many gigs we are doing and at the moment the duo are earning more so i can 'afford' to spend more there. The reality is that the sound isn't an issue any more but convenience could be. If either of the bands really takes off I'll invest in whatever makes us a better act. I've never made a loss on buying used gear and never more than 25% on new gear so though it ties up capital it effectively costs nothing and brings in more gigs. Not many hobbies do that

 

 

 

[Al Krow]

32 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

I think that £600 is a lot of money and better spent elsewhere. It'd go a long way towards a digital mixer or would buy a decent light show for the band so unless funds really aren't an issue I'd be taking a broader view.

 

If it helps I'd probably now buy the 932's over the 745's which I love. The 745's have given me a great sound and have coped with everything I've done since I bought them including outdoor gigs without needing subs which I have 'just in case'. Our sound is limited more by the lack of a FOH engineer much more than the gear we are using and the 932's would take up less space to store/transport and probably give me very similar performance to the 745's. The 932's weren't an option back when I bought and the 745's are just too big to be ideal. I don't often give categoric advice but I think we know each other well enough? Buy the ART 932's sell the 912's and you'll be happily gigging them for years, I think you already know they are a good match to your needs. I doubt you'll ever need a sub but you can add that if it becomes a burning need.

 

I'm increasingly taking a financial and practical view of PA. My band are going out for £320-350 split four ways. My duo for £180-200 and are getting more bookings. We sound great in the sense of good clear sound and a decent mix, not so sure of the backing vocals If I invest it will be on the basis of how many gigs we are doing and at the moment the duo are earning more so i can 'afford' to spend more there. The reality is that the sound isn't an issue any more but convenience could be. If either of the bands really takes off I'll invest in whatever makes us a better act. I've never made a loss on buying used gear and never more than 25% on new gear so though it ties up capital it effectively costs nothing and brings in more gigs. Not many hobbies do that

 

 

I agree with you Phil in terms of wanting to getting good value for money. The fact that you would go for the 932As over the 745As I think very much chimes with where I'm landing on upgrading from the 912As, and certainly does help thank you! I think the marginal improvements that the NX wooden cabs will offer is going to be relatively marginal in the scheme of things, and an upgrade to a digital desk would be money much better spent.

 

Tbf we have done a fair number of function gigs these past 18 months, which do pay considerably better than pubs, and I've had feedback from other experienced bass players that we have a pretty basic set up for a function band with no sub (and, personally, I think our lighting could do with a revamp too!)

 

But a digital desk with tailored monitoring for all the band, rather than just two of us being able to tailor our IEM feeds, with the other two just getting the FoH mix would make much more sense in the first instance. 

Edited October 5 by Al Krow

[warwickhunt]

9 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

I'm increasingly taking a financial and practical view of PA. My band are going out for £320-350 split four ways. My duo for £180-200 and are getting more bookings. We sound great in the sense of good clear sound and a decent mix, not so sure of the backing vocals If I invest it will be on the basis of how many gigs we are doing and at the moment the duo are earning more so i can 'afford' to spend more there. The reality is that the sound isn't an issue any more but convenience could be. If either of the bands really takes off I'll invest in whatever makes us a better act. I've never made a loss on buying used gear and never more than 25% on new gear so though it ties up capital it effectively costs nothing and brings in more gigs. Not many hobbies do that

 

 

Similar position.  Duo owns a pair of (used) QSC K10s, my band who jointly bought a (used) FBT 15" sub and a (new) digital desk; all of this gear was paid for within 4 respective gigs and will probably retains most of its value for a few more years.  

 

The K10s and a single sub really work for the band in pubs and small/medium clubs... big club rooms are going to need dry hire of more speakers!   

 

BTW this is me in the PA and no backline.  

[Phil Starr]

6 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

BTW this is me in the PA and no backline

Me too, I have a bass amp for possible dep gigs and the odd rehearsal but it stays at home nowadays

[Jack]

Interesting regarding the 745s. When I downsized from my Barefaced rig I was tempted by the 745s as I kept worrying that any other pa solution wouldn't cut it as a bass amp. In the end I went with a pair of QSC k12.2s (for a variety of reasons over the RCF) and even they're overkill for my needs. I think now I'd buy the 10" model of whatever made the most sense, I've never needed that much stage volume. Funnily enough I now accidentally own a really nice RCF sub, so I'd have been better off if I'd bought the RCF tops as well in the first place. 

 

Digital mixers are where it's at man. My hard rock band uses an all Alto pa system (2x TS115 and 2x TS118a), and my pop punk band uses RCF (usually 2x 910a and 1x 705ii but we have options) and if you offered me the choice between the budget Alto speakers with my digital desk or the RCF system with an old school board I could 100% make the cheaper PA sound better. 

[Al Krow]

9 minutes ago, Jack said:

Interesting regarding the 745s. When I downsized from my Barefaced rig I was tempted by the 745s as I kept worrying that any other pa solution wouldn't cut it as a bass amp. In the end I went with a pair of QSC k12.2s (for a variety of reasons over the RCF) and even they're overkill for my needs. I think now I'd buy the 10" model of whatever made the most sense, I've never needed that much stage volume. Funnily enough I now accidentally own a really nice RCF sub, so I'd have been better off if I'd bought the RCF tops as well in the first place. 

 

Digital mixers are where it's at man. My hard rock band uses an all Alto pa system (2x TS115 and 2x TS118a), and my pop punk band uses RCF (usually 2x 910a and 1x 705ii but we have options) and if you offered me the choice between the budget Alto speakers with my digital desk or the RCF system with an old school board I could 100% make the cheaper PA sound better. 

 

Thanks Jack. Any clips of your pop punk band with the RCF set up?

 

2 x 910A plus a 705ii sub sounds like a very decent alternative to 2 x 932As or 732As! (Although I suspect the mids / vox may well benefit from the larger 3" voice coils on the x32 speakers).

[Jack]

5 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

Thanks Jack. Any clips of your pop punk band with the RCF set up?

 

2 x 910A plus a 705ii sub sounds like a very decent alternative to 2 x 932As or 732As! (Although I suspect the mids / vox may well benefit from the larger 3" voice coils on the x32 speakers).

I think we're slowly settling on that, although if I chock my 705ii in for a QSC sub like I think I might then we might go for that plus my K12.2 pair. We've just ended up with a motley collection of stuff that we're trying to get together. The guitarist in this band is also from my mostly defunct hard rock band, and he owns a pair of Alto subs, I have my QSCs and one of the RCF 705ii subs I bought when my indie rock band folded. The drummer bought the other one and he has a pair of 715s. The singer has a pair of 910s and a pair of Headrush 8" boxes, it's all over the place. We're trying to find the ideal combo of size/performance. Aren't we all? We're kind of settled on 2x 910 and 1x 705ii (most gigs), 2x 910 and 2x 705ii (big gigs), 2x 715 and 2x 705ii (really big gigs). Even though I was just saying that the 745s would have been way overkill for me as a bass rig for stage, to be honest a pair of them would be ideal for us for mains as it means we wouldn't need subs. There's no free lunch here.

 

Here's a dodgy phone recording seeing as you asked, but sadly with the phone mic the whumph from the subwoofer is rather under represented and it's a little compressed. Probably useless to judge pa quality. For reference this was a medium/large function room, there's no volume on stage aside from a drum kit, and it was about 95-100dB at the chairs in the back half, more on the dancefloor. 2 RCF 910 as mains and 1 705ii as a sub. No wedges, no amps.

 

Edited October 6 by Jack

[Al Krow]

Cheers Jack! The bass is actually very clear through a pair of decent headphones and I can imaging the extra thump you would have been getting live! Nice one!

[Al Krow]

Did you ever consider getting a 12" sub (eg the RCF 702) or is the consensus that you really need to be at 15" when it comes to subs, even with something as decent quality as RCF?

[Jack]

13 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Did you ever consider getting a 12" sub (eg the RCF 702) or is the consensus that you really need to be at 15" when it comes to subs, even with something as decent quality as RCF?

Subs were chosen based on two factors, firstly everyone in my indie band had RCF stuff already (this was before I had my pair of QSCs) and secondly what was available for a good price within a reasonable distance?

 

IIRC we were looking for a single 18 but when the pair of 15s came up it was a no brainer. Say what you like about power alley, the convenience of one-sub-and-one-top-per-side is great. I think we thought we'd need a pair if we were only going for 15s, but those boxes run on some seriously impressive physics and we nearly always just used one even in that indie band which was relatively loud. Now that they have carried over in to my new project we are actively making a point to be as quiet and as 'modern' as we can so I'm afraid I might not be the person to ask about the consensus. Not quiet in the absolute sense, but quiet enough to not deafen patrons trying to order drinks or annoy the tables of old folks at functions. More bands seem to be competing for fewer gigs (at least fewer good gigs) and at the same time you've got Johnny the Middle Aged Rock God blasting the windows out in a 30 seat pub with a Marshall full stack. Bad form.

 

What I will say is that one of those subs will hang with a decent pair of 12 tops, and to me if you're doing more than that then there's almost certainly a provided/hired pa. We tend to run our 10" 910s at about 3 oclock on the gain control, and then the sub is at unity, so it's a little 'louder' than a pair of good 10s if you are listening with your eyes and looking at the gain controls. But that is the right balance when listening to recorded music. I imagine that we could probably swap a 15 for a pair of 12s if you have a specific reason to want a 12" sub. I would make an educated guess that a similar RCF 12" sub would likely not quite be enough for a lot of what we do, and we'd probably be bringing the pair more often. But I have admittedly never tried. Don't get overly hung up on speaker size though. My guitarist has a pair of Alto 18s from a previous band and the 15" RCFs easily outpace those.

[Phil Starr]

Your audience was more in tune than ours ever is @Jack You are shamelessly entertaining them too

 

We've gone the 745 route with the band but they are huge in smaller venues and completely over the top for most of what we do. There's no point in 15's if you know you are going to be using a subThe only real gain is below 50Hz and if you are crossing over to the sub at 100Hz or over that's all just wasted speaker area. I must admit I'm looking at the 910's for our duo if some decent ones come up used and I have a 905 sub as well as a couple of Wharfedale 15" subs. It'd be interesting to gig with a couple of 910's with a sub. @Al Krow you need to worry a little less about a lower crossover with a smaller bass/mid driver. A 15" cone won't go as high before problems kick in as a 10" bass/mid so the 'gap' is smaller and you can crossover a bit higher. I'm really pretty happy with the vocals from my ART310's and the 910 uses a slightly bigger 1.75" compression unit so I'd expect a small improvement over the 310 as well as a bit of extra headroom and a tighter bass.

1 hour ago, Jack said:

Say what you like about power alley, the convenience of one-sub-and-one-top-per-side is great.

The power alleys are really quite dramatic if you are in an open air venue, in a rectangular room you have so many muitiple pathways to any given part of the auditorium that the alleys become much less noticeable and much more complex. I've been saying for a while that IME come filtering in enclosed spaces not as dramatic as people are making out and in practical terms less worrying than having 30kg tops on 2m high poles close to intoxicated dancers. I'm hoping to demonstrate this at the SW Bass Bash in a couple of weeks time if I can get all three subs in my VW estate. Without the intoxicated dancers of course

 

[Chienmortbb]

20 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Without the intoxicated dancers of course

Shame, I was only coming to watch them.

[Jack]

43 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Your audience was more in tune than ours ever is @Jack You are shamelessly entertaining them too

 

We've gone the 745 route with the band but they are huge in smaller venues and completely over the top for most of what we do. There's no point in 15's if you know you are going to be using a subThe only real gain is below 50Hz and if you are crossing over to the sub at 100Hz or over that's all just wasted speaker area. I must admit I'm looking at the 910's for our duo if some decent ones come up used and I have a 905 sub as well as a couple of Wharfedale 15" subs. It'd be interesting to gig with a couple of 910's with a sub. @Al Krow you need to worry a little less about a lower crossover with a smaller bass/mid driver. A 15" cone won't go as high before problems kick in as a 10" bass/mid so the 'gap' is smaller and you can crossover a bit higher. I'm really pretty happy with the vocals from my ART310's and the 910 uses a slightly bigger 1.75" compression unit so I'd expect a small improvement over the 310 as well as a bit of extra headroom and a tighter bass.

The power alleys are really quite dramatic if you are in an open air venue, in a rectangular room you have so many muitiple pathways to any given part of the auditorium that the alleys become much less noticeable and much more complex. I've been saying for a while that IME come filtering in enclosed spaces not as dramatic as people are making out and in practical terms less worrying than having 30kg tops on 2m high poles close to intoxicated dancers. I'm hoping to demonstrate this at the SW Bass Bash in a couple of weeks time if I can get all three subs in my VW estate. Without the intoxicated dancers of course

 

You know now that you say that I'm wondering if ours are 905 instead...

 

If one is a power alley naysayer then it doesn't matter whether the bass is coming from subs in the floor or mains on stands, you'll still get the same amount of comb filtering. Or won't. I'm on your side. 

 

Edit - Thanks btw. This band is struggling to find its feet a little, I'm not sure if I want to stay with them. Good to hear nice comments

Edited October 6 by Jack

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

@Al Krow you need to worry a little less about a lower crossover with a smaller bass/mid driver. A 15" cone won't go as high before problems kick in as a 10" bass/mid so the 'gap' is smaller and you can crossover a bit higher. I'm really pretty happy with the vocals from my ART310's and the 910 uses a slightly bigger 1.75" compression unit so I'd expect a small improvement over the 310 as well as a bit of extra headroom and a tighter bass.

 

Hi Phil - didn't quite follow what you were saying here. My question about 15" vs 12" was really directed at adding a sub to our set up.

 

I guess for us (= me, and I don't have Jack's transportation capability or weight carrying youth!), it's going to be boil down a choice of:

(i) option 1: 2 decent 12" tops (maybe RCF 932As?) vs

(ii) option 2: single sub plus 2 x 10" tops (maybe even 310As) - my query was whether the RCF 702 AS II Mk3 is going to cut the ice, or whether we really need to be going for the 705 if we were using a sub?

 

And I guess, if we do go "further up the sound chain" it would be:

(iii) option 1A: 2 932As plus a single sub - at which point I'm guessing folk would likely say the RCF 702 is not going to add too much and we would need to have something like the 705? So back to the 15" vs 12" for a sub question?

 

Edited October 6 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

30 minutes ago, Jack said:

Edit - Thanks btw. This band is struggling to find its feet a little, I'm not sure if I want to stay with them. Good to hear nice comments

 

Complete aside - sorry to hear that Jack, from the video you shared, it has the look and feel of a really good band! What's been the struggle in terms of finding your feet?

[Phil Starr]

20 hours ago, Al Krow said:

(Although I suspect the mids / vox may well benefit from the larger 3" voice coils on the x32 speakers).

Sorry I wasn't really answering your basic question but the aside you added. This was the bit I was responding to. If you went for the RCF910's plus a sub then losing out on the 3" tweeter would be a shame, but is less of an issue with a small bass driver as you would probably crossover a bit higher anyway. Im sure the difference would be there but the 910 would potentially sound a little better in the vocal range than the 912.

 

In all I think you know what you want, the vocal sound of the ART732 and the bass sound of the ART912, all you have to do is decide whether it is worth the cost of the upgrade. Having lived with both your PA speaker and the singers you know what you'll be getting.  You might not need a sub, prior to my buying my ART745's we used our singers QSC 12.2's and I never felt the need for more bass I've no reason to believe the 932 wouldn't be at least as good. If you do eventually want to add a sub it is because you'll be playing more and/or bigger gigs so it won't be a difficult choice when you reach it.

 

Adding a sub by the way won't improve your bass sound you don't want the lower frequencies in your bass tone as it will just add more mud. It will improve your kick and floor toms so you will be adding a sub to improve the drums not the bass. If you do a sub well then it shouldn't add more bass in the sense of it being louder. It should just add in a little bit of the frequencies your tops won't reach and tighten up your bass sound adding a little extra headroom. I find them difficult things to get right when setting up in a strange room with less than an hour for set up and soundchecking. In the right hands they can add to your sound but it's more often not done well with the subs too loud being the usual issue. Spending the money on a digital desk is going to add much more to your sound than a sub when your speakers are already so capable IMO

 

Edited October 7 by Phil Starr

[Al Krow]

45 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Sorry I wasn't really answering your basic question but the aside you added. This was the bit I was responding to. If you went for the RCF910's plus a sub then losing out on the 3" tweeter would be a shame, but is less of an issue with a small bass driver as you would probably crossover a bit higher anyway. Im sure the difference would be there but the 910 would potentially sound a little better in the vocal range than the 912.

 

In all I think you know what you want, the vocal sound of the ART732 and the bass sound of the ART912, all you have to do is decide whether it is worth the cost of the upgrade. Having lived with both your PA speaker and the singers you know what you'll be getting.  You might not need a sub, prior to my buying my ART745's we used our singers QSC 12.2's and I never felt the need for more bass I've no reason to believe the 932 wouldn't be at least as good. If you do eventually want to add a sub it is because you'll be playing more and/or bigger gigs so it won't be a difficult choice when you reach it.

 

Adding a sub by the way won't improve your bass sound you don't want the lower frequencies in your bass tone as it will just add more mud. It will improve your kick and floor toms so you will be adding a sub to improve the drums not the bass. If you do a sub well then it shouldn't add more bass in the sense of it being louder. It should just add in a little bit of the frequencies your tops won't reach and tighten up your bass sound adding a little extra headroom. I find them difficult things to get right when setting up in a strange room with less than an hour for set up and soundchecking. In the right hands they can add to your sound but it's more often not done well with the subs too loud being the usual issue. Spending the money on a digital desk is going to add much more to your sound than a sub when your speakers are already so capable IMO

 

Phil, that's an excellent summary,  thank you!

 

Also a useful reminder that: we add a sub primarily to improve the drums (kick and floor toms) and not for the bass guitar 😊

 

[Phil Starr]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Phil, that's an excellent summary,  thank you!

Should I leave you in peace now 😂🤣🥰

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

Should I leave you in peace now 😂🤣🥰

 

Haha thanks, it's actually been really useful! One of my 912A's needs to get serviced, and that's tied in with me thinking about upgrading. Hearing @Jack's band sound so good with that bigger set up makes going for something like that very tempting, but being reminded that will be great  for larger & outdoor venues (but overkill in a typical pub set up) and will mainly benefit the drums was important to hear. I think it may well be time to have a chat with the drummer and agree a split of investment for the band e.g. me desk & lights and he can sort out a sub!!

Edited October 7 by Al Krow

[Jack]

For the record I don't think that our standard rig of 2x 10" tops and 1x 15" sub is "overkill in a typical pub setup". Sorry if I haven't been clear. That's about what we can comfortably 'get away with' and I think a smaller or less capable system would be uncomfortably pushed. I'm a big fan of proper subs whenever one can. Yes, there's usually not a lot of actual bass in a bass guitar (although tell that to someone playing reggae) but there is plenty going on below say 120Hz where we normally cross over. Even if you're Peter Hook and there's nearly nothing going on for bass guitar in the subs then taking all of that drum and possibly keys out of the tops allows them to have an easier time and maybe even go louder on the remaining content. The midrange and the high end coming from the tops will genuinely sound better if the lows are offloaded to a sub. The top is just happier.

 

I guess the problem is that some of us are in death metal bands and some of us are in folk duos so loud and quiet are vague terms. Similarly, we all think small and large venues are very different sizes! It's probably important to remember that the less backline you have, the more work you're asking of the pa. I know it's not just as simple as doing the math but it occurs to me that my last speakers on sticks, vocal-only pa band had 880W and 7 12" speakers of backline. My GK 750W 1001ii with a 1x12 and 2x12", a 100W 2x12" Blackstar combo and an 2x12" AC30. That's an awful lot to effectively replace with two tiny plastic boxes on stands. There are a lot of bassists who would feel that something like a 2x12" is about the minimum you could gig with, that's just bass, and we're asking a similar complement to do everything? Ok, this is rather in the weeds: PA speakers might be higher quality and the whole point is that we're trying to be quieter, none of the backline was ran at 100% in the old days, whatever. You get my meaning, it's still just physics and it can be a lot to ask of a small system.

 

We could absolutely move to more capable tops and ditch the subs for most gigs but we don't own any tops in the league of something like the 945 or the NX32. And yes we could buy some but it's all been hashed out above with regards to using what you have, massive tops being a liability on stands and looking quite obtrusive. This works for us, and I appear to be slightly more in team sub than some on here. Maybe I'm one of the ones running them too loud.

[Chienmortbb]

1 minute ago, Jack said:

possibly keys out of the tops allows

Should never be in the low end, why did God give keyboardists left hands? OK slightly jokey but after many years with keys, I vowed never to play in a band with them again as the "i can play that so I will" mentality drove me nuts.

[Al Krow]

22 minutes ago, Jack said:

For the record I don't think that our standard rig of 2x 10" tops and 1x 15" sub is "overkill in a typical pub setup". Sorry if I haven't been clear. That's about what we can comfortably 'get away with' and I think a smaller or less capable system would be uncomfortably pushed. I'm a big fan of proper subs whenever one can. Yes, there's usually not a lot of actual bass in a bass guitar (although tell that to someone playing reggae) but there is plenty going on below say 120Hz where we normally cross over. Even if you're Peter Hook and there's nearly nothing going on for bass guitar in the subs then taking all of that drum and possibly keys out of the tops allows them to have an easier time and maybe even go louder on the remaining content. The midrange and the high end coming from the tops will genuinely sound better if the lows are offloaded to a sub. The top is just happier.

 

I guess the problem is that some of us are in death metal bands and some of us are in folk duos so loud and quiet are vague terms. Similarly, we all think small and large venues are very different sizes! It's probably important to remember that the less backline you have, the more work you're asking of the pa. I know it's not just as simple as doing the math but it occurs to me that my last speakers on sticks, vocal-only pa band had 880W and 7 12" speakers of backline. My GK 750W 1001ii with a 1x12 and 2x12", a 100W 2x12" Blackstar combo and an 2x12" AC30. That's an awful lot to effectively replace with two tiny plastic boxes on stands. There are a lot of bassists who would feel that something like a 2x12" is about the minimum you could gig with, that's just bass, and we're asking a similar complement to do everything? Ok, this is rather in the weeds: PA speakers might be higher quality and the whole point is that we're trying to be quieter, none of the backline was ran at 100% in the old days, whatever. You get my meaning, it's still just physics and it can be a lot to ask of a small system.

 

We could absolutely move to more capable tops and ditch the subs for most gigs but we don't own any tops in the league of something like the 945 or the NX32. And yes we could buy some but it's all been hashed out above with regards to using what you have, massive tops being a liability on stands and looking quite obtrusive. This works for us, and I appear to be slightly more in team sub than some on here. Maybe I'm one of the ones running them too loud.

 

Thanks, also an excellent summary!

 

I think maybe where we are collectively landing is that for an "average" venue with a full rock band, the two following alternatives (which are likely to be a similar weight & cost) are both pretty compact and can be made to work well without backline:

 

option 1: 2 x 12" tops (e.g. RCF 732A/932As, QSC K12.2) 

option 2: 2 x 10" tops (eg RCF310/710/910As) + single decent (15") sub

 

Although we're probably no longer in the realms of a "budget" set up (referring back to the topic title from a couple of year's back), but a pretty decent quality one!

[Muzz]

If it helps, I have extensive experience gigging over a few years without backline in all sorts of pubs and bars in two bands, and the two setups have been a pair of RCF 312 tops and the 702 sub, or just a pair of the 315 tops. Either can go silly loud and handle bass as well as miked/triggered drums, guitar, keys, vocals and even percussion as well. A good digital mixer with Aux outs than can support individual inear mixes makes things very simple and very enjoyable indeed. If pushed, I'd take the 315s, just because it's one less biggish box to carry, and I'm getting very lazy...